Buyers with attitude!

[hayfield]

It's so easy to remove this option, I was caught out as a seller once as I never realised it was the default option. Now its one of the first things I look out for

[lofty1966]

23 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

As someone who buys quite a lot of books and magazines via the internet (not just Ebay) I am acutely aware of the costs of shipping and to boot most of my purchases are international rather than domestic.  But it is how it is.  I have no complaints when a seller adds a bit on for the other things such as packaging and cost to get to a post office.

 

What does annoy however is eBay's international shipping program.  I understand that this offers the seller protection against non-delivery so I do understand why many sellers favour this route; however it is expensive for the buyer (and therefore reduces the maximum bid I will put in, so perhaps reducing the profit to the seller)  being usually at least double the standard postal route's cost; it is excruciatingly slow (UK to France takes 3 days by normal post, and I even got a soldering station delivered from Manchester in 47 hours from placing an order) but Pitney Bowes will never deliver within a week and a fortnight is more often the norm.  The final delivery is made by La Poste (French post office) regardless of whether standard postal systems are used or eBay's system.  Finally I have had a few occasions where items have not been delivered.  These have always and without exception been via eBay's program.  On raising this with the seller, the result has always been the same.  Order cancelled (no opportunity to leave feedback, no explanation) although repayment is instant.  I strongly suspect the instructions from Ebay are to take this route so the faults in their system are not highlighted.

 

I do however have a problem  when filling out feedback.  Do I criticise the seller for his high postage, when I know the "fault" lies with Ebay/Pitney Bowles?  Do I criticise the seller when an item does not arrive within the estimated delivery time?  I try to be fair and when this does occur I try and make this clear in the 80 character feedback, but I suspect many people just look at the star/feedback rating and not the reasons for the less than perfect feedback.

eBay's international shipping program is a massive scam.

They tried to charge me import duty and fees on a CD that was below the Canadian import duty threshold!

I called them up and they refused to budge so I cancelled the purchase.

[hayfield]

As I said in a previous post. I sold items to two different people abroad and wondered why they opted for this service only to find it was eBay who set this option as a default option. Its so expensive and the first thing I now change when listing

[The White Rabbit]

Whereabouts do you go to change this? It's something I've had problems with and would like to opt out next time I've some bits to sell. 

[lofty1966]

2 hours ago, The White Rabbit said:

Whereabouts do you go to change this? It's something I've had problems with and would like to opt out next time I've some bits to sell. 

I think you can opt out when you fill in the shipping section.

Knowing eBay it will be a major faff to alter it.

 

[Guest teacupteacup]

I recently sold a wagon on ebay.  The listing stated there were no couplings attached but I would include non-original couplings, to be glued/screwed on by the buyer,  plus there were a few marks on the bodyshell, all pointed out.  The person who won the auction messaged to say he was pleased to get the wagon for a good price and as he was (in his own words) "a modeller, I will detail and weather the wagon down to my exacting standards".  

 

I was messaged by him a few days later stating he wanted a refund as the couplings werent attached and not suitable for the wagon (I sent NEM couplings and sockets).  I repeated what the listing said about having to fit the couplings to which he replied that he wasnt capable of doing such tricky work!!!

 

Not that much of a modeller then!

 

I refunded him, got the wagon back and relisted it.  I received a message from the same buyer giving me abuse for selling crap on ebay and he said there was no way I would get it sold, I was a chancer etc etc etc.  The wagon sold for more than the first time around!

 

Again I received a message from him accusing me of putting false bids in to drive the price up and that he would report me to ebay and get my account closed down.  Heard nothing from ebay and I've since noticed that his account is no longer active!

 

Complete fool if you ask me!

[hayfield]

This is an odd one, though the first message would sound alarm bells. I would report him to eBay and block him (if you can) from bidding in future. Thankfully this is a one off

[John M Upton]

Best one I had was a chap who bought a loco, a few weeks later sends me this very old fashioned but politely worded message saying that upon examination of the loco (and listing the faults that were clearly illustrated and detailed on the original listing)  asking to return it for a full refund which I duly if slightly reluctantly accepted. 

 

When it got back, aside from a new address label, it was clear the package had never even been opened!

[Torper]

I have long taken the view that if an item is only available by mail order, then the cost of carriage should be included in the price.  To do otherwise can and often is misleading.  For example, in a curent "Radio Times" (the fact that I read that shows my age!) an attractive  garden plant is offered at (in big prominent letters) "Now only £16".  Of course it isn't - in small print on the order form at the bottom of the page P&P of £4.95 is added, so in fact it's £20.95.  As that is the price that has to be paid, it's the only price that should be quoted.

 

The same should apply to ebay where, like others, I alwys give preference to items that are offered with free postage.  If faster or more secure carriage is required by the buyer, he could select that himself and pay a premium for it.  Having said that, I never understand why a buyer should have to pay for insurance; responsibility for the package rests with the seller until it is delivered, so insurance can only benefit the seller and there seems no reason why the buyer should have to pay for it.  If the seller wants insurance, it should be included in the quoted purchase price.

 

DT.

[John M Upton]

I always do free postage these days (I still think Ebay scalping a percentage of post and packaging charges is borderline illegal) as it saves a lot of hassle and except for small thin letter rate items, it's UK buyers only now.

 

Experience of dealing with too many idiots has seen me get tough with T&C's.

[Jonboy]

The problem with that approach is there is a cumulative saving if you post more than one of an item. For the majority of the paints I sell at work I could send 8 or so into the cheapest small parcel category with Royal Mail. Do I therefore mark up each paint by the £2.85 to ensure I don’t lose out on small orders, or charge a flat rate £2.85 p&p charge?

Edited April 19, 2019 by Jonboy

[hayfield]

29 minutes ago, Torper said:

I have long taken the view that if an item is only available by mail order, then the cost of carriage should be included in the price.  To do otherwise can and often is misleading.  For example, in a curent "Radio Times" (the fact that I read that shows my age!) an attractive  garden plant is offered at (in big prominent letters) "Now only £16".  Of course it isn't - in small print on the order form at the bottom of the page P&P of £4.95 is added, so in fact it's £20.95.  As that is the price that has to be paid, it's the only price that should be quoted.

 

The same should apply to ebay where, like others, I alwys give preference to items that are offered with free postage.  If faster or more secure carriage is required by the buyer, he could select that himself and pay a premium for it.  Having said that, I never understand why a buyer should have to pay for insurance; responsibility for the package rests with the seller until it is delivered, so insurance can only benefit the seller and there seems no reason why the buyer should have to pay for it.  If the seller wants insurance, it should be included in the quoted purchase price.

 

DT.

 

 

I think I must come to the defence of small traders here who often work on small margins, I accept if a company supplies the retail trade then perhaps its good PR if they offer free shipping over x£'s , but for a retail business postage is never free and if free postage is on offer then postage has been added to the retail price, if this is the case then buying multiple items becomes more expensive.

 

Free posting is a miss demona as postage has to be paid for, separating the postage when making multiple purchases actually becomes cheaper.

 

My old boss always said cheapest is not always the best, or cutting the cost could result in an inferior product/service, 

[Torper]

14 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I think I must come to the defence of small traders here who often work on small margins, I accept if a company supplies the retail trade then perhaps its good PR if they offer free shipping over x£'s , but for a retail business postage is never free and if free postage is on offer then postage has been added to the retail price, if this is the case then buying multiple items becomes more expensive

 

Which is what I'm saying - postage should be added to the retail price rather than being charged seperately.  Thus rather than selling an item at, say, £10 plus £2.95 postage (the latter in small letters at the bottom of the page), it would be advertised and sold at a straight £12.95.   A discount could be offered for multiple items - that already happens in many cases on ebay.  Small traders have an advantage over larger ones in that they don't have to add VAT.

 

DT

Edited April 19, 2019 by Torper

[Andy Hayter]

53 minutes ago, Torper said:

I have long taken the view that if an item is only available by mail order, then the cost of carriage should be included in the price.  To do otherwise can and often is misleading.  For example, in a curent "Radio Times" (the fact that I read that shows my age!) an attractive  garden plant is offered at (in big prominent letters) "Now only £16".  Of course it isn't - in small print on the order form at the bottom of the page P&P of £4.95 is added, so in fact it's £20.95.  As that is the price that has to be paid, it's the only price that should be quoted.

 

The same should apply to ebay where, like others, I alwys give preference to items that are offered with free postage.  If faster or more secure carriage is required by the buyer, he could select that himself and pay a premium for it.  Having said that, I never understand why a buyer should have to pay for insurance; responsibility for the package rests with the seller until it is delivered, so insurance can only benefit the seller and there seems no reason why the buyer should have to pay for it.  If the seller wants insurance, it should be included in the quoted purchase price.

 

DT.

That of course only works for sales with a single region.

 

It is impossible to include a single postage charge in the asking price if you don't know whether the package is going to Southend or South America.

[Torper]

3 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

That of course only works for sales with a single region.  It is impossible to include a single postage charge in the asking price if you don't know whether the package is going to Southend or South America.

It's actually pefectly possible.  Immediately under the advertised price you'd say something like "this price UK only; carriage charges will apply to overseas purchases" or something like that.  On the internet, the shopping cart I use allows the seller to set up various P&P price bands for different countries and regions.  Thus one could set up a zero P&P price band for the UK, but charge for carriage abroad - on my own site I simplify matters by having one carriage charge for Europe and another for the Rest of the World.  The same cart also allows me to have either one carriage charge for the whole order, separate carriage charges for each item, or whatever.

 

The fact remains that advertising a price in big top-of-the-page letters as "Only £16" when in fact you're going to have to pay £4.95 on top of that strikes me as at best misleading, at worst dishonest, particularly if the seller only deals in mail order.

 

DT

 

[Andy Hayter]

I do understand where you are coming from, and to be fair the sort of thing you use as an example  is the sort of product that is UK only _ and in some cases UK excluding NI, the Highlands and Islands.  That I suspect rather upsets (in the mildest of descriptions) those living in those regions.  However unless a seller can give some idea of postage as an international buyer I will be cautious.  Many sellers do in fact say if you are interested ask for postage, but if some of the examples here and elsewhere are to go by, then I bet they are well p'ed off with time wasters.  Indeed I may have seemed such myself, having requested a shipping cost, but then deciding as the auction comes to a close, that the price including postage is beyond what the item is worth to me and therefore not to place a bid.

[hayfield]

22 hours ago, Torper said:

 

Which is what I'm saying - postage should be added to the retail price rather than being charged seperately.  Thus rather than selling an item at, say, £10 plus £2.95 postage (the latter in small letters at the bottom of the page), it would be advertised and sold at a straight £12.95.   A discount could be offered for multiple items - that already happens in many cases on ebay.  Small traders have an advantage over larger ones in that they don't have to add VAT.

 

DT

 

 

This would end up as a complete mess and as usual costing the customer more. As you say many sellers do offer reduced postage, but not all. As I said its so easy to factor in the cost of postage when bidding 

 

As for VAT, the small trader (and general public) who is not VAT registered has to pay VAT and cannot reclaim it as the Vat registered businesses do, 

[Torper]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

This would end up as a complete mess and as usual costing the customer more. As you say many sellers do offer reduced postage, but not all. As I said its so easy to factor in the cost of postage when bidding     As for VAT, the small trader (and general public) who is not VAT registered has to pay VAT and cannot reclaim it as the Vat registered businesses do, 

 

I fail to see why it would end up as a mess at all, far less a complete one, or that it would cost more - quite the opposite really. You offer the product for mail order sale at an inclusive price that includes carriage.  That's so much easier for the buyer than having to compare various items, some of which include carriage, some of which add it on at cost, some of which add it on with a hefty mark-up, and some of which hide the carriage charge in small print.

 

VAT?  Two traders, one small and not registered for VAT, the other registered, buy an item at wholesale to sell on.  It costs £10 plus £2 VAT.  Both traders therefore pay £12, but the big one recovers the £2 VAT, so effectively has only paid £10.  At this stage he's £2 better off.  Come to resale, both have a 2x markup.  The small trader sells his item for 2 x 12, ie £24, profit £12.  Using the same markup the big trader doubles his £10 purchase price to £20, but he then has to add £4 VAT to that, which means that his retail price is £24, the same as the small trader.  Unfortunately, as the big trader has to send the £4 VAT off to HMG, his profit is only £10.  Thus by not registering for VAT the small trader either makes £2 more profit or can accept the same profit as the big trader but undercut his sale price.  He does even better if he buys from a supplier who is himself not registered for VAT.  AND - big point - he doesn't have all the paperwork that goes with VAT.

 

DT

[hayfield]

DT

 

But what actually happens in situations like this , is that it ends up with price inflation with many traders over time not reducing the price for multi buys.

 

 

[chris p bacon]

5 minutes ago, Torper said:

VAT?  Two traders, one small and not registered for VAT, the other registered, buy an item at wholesale to sell on.  It costs £10 plus £2 VAT.  Both traders therefore pay £12, but the big one recovers the £2 VAT, so effectively has only paid £10.  At this stage he's £2 better off.  Come to resale, both have a 2x markup.  The small trader sells his item for 2 x 12, ie £24, profit £12.  Using the same markup the big trader doubles his £10 purchase price to £20, but he then has to add £4 VAT to that, which means that his retail price is £24, the same as the small trader.  Unfortunately, as the big trader has to send the £4 VAT off to HMG, his profit is only £10.  Thus by not registering for VAT the small trader either makes £2 more profit or can accept the same profit as the big trader but undercut his sale price.  He does even better if he buys from a supplier who is himself not registered for VAT.  AND - big point - he doesn't have all the paperwork that goes with VAT.

 

DT

 

 

There is no difference with VAT and no advantage to the traders what price is charged.  The larger trader only sends off the difference between what he paid and what he collects (£2) meaning the bottom line for the 2 traders is the same.. 

All traders are unpaid tax collectors, the registered trader is able to claim his VAT payment against collections and the non registered pays for the VAT at source.

 

The advantage to the registered trader is that he is able to claim back VAT paid against items/equipment required to trade, but this isn't a bonus as the money has been paid out in advance.

[Torper]

I rather suspected that there might be something wrong with my reckoning, and equally sure that if there was it would be you who'd pick it up!  But while all may be tax collectors, it's only the registered trader who has to account for it to HMG.

 

DT

[chris p bacon]

5 minutes ago, Torper said:

I rather suspected that there might be something wrong with my reckoning, and equally sure that if there was it would be you who'd pick it up!  But while all may be tax collectors, it's only the registered trader who has to account for it to HMG.

 

DT

I've been both unregistered (lower turnover) and registered (20+ years), and there were plus and minus for both. It can be a lot of work and it easily catches a lot of people out. Nowadays I only work on zero rated works so constantly claim back. Unfortunately this means I fork out 20% extra then wait 3 months to get the monies back. If you don't plan big purchases it can play hell with your cashflow which is where a lot of traders can come unstuck.

[Torper]

27 minutes ago, hayfield said:

But what actually happens in situations like this , is that it ends up with price inflation with many traders over time not reducing the price for multi buys.

 

A lot don't anyway.  But some do, eg Multi-Buy listings on Ebay, and presumably if they can do it, so can everyone, and as I said earlier, the free shopping cart that I use enables multi-buy discounts as I'm sure most do.   Once again it'll be up to the customer - "Does he offer a multi-buy discount? No? Well in that event I'll go elsewhere".

 

DT

[hayfield]

DT

 

If you are talking about retail, yes of course you can go elsewhere, on the other hand if you do the sums it might be worth buying postage extra!

 

With private sales, especially auctions it might be too much a gamble starting with 99p. I did have a case where I bought a low value item on eBay, the seller made a loss by sending it to me. I actually made an extra payment to cover the chaps costs. Also I do part refund postage, either when I miss calculate the cost or buyers pay full postage on a multi buy (not waiting for an invoice) rarely get a thanks but I feel better and hopefully attract good karma

[247 Developments]

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 11:19, Torper said:

I have long taken the view that if an item is only available by mail order, then the cost of carriage should be included in the price.  To do otherwise can and often is misleading.  For example, in a curent "Radio Times" (the fact that I read that shows my age!) an attractive  garden plant is offered at (in big prominent letters) "Now only £16".  Of course it isn't - in small print on the order form at the bottom of the page P&P of £4.95 is added, so in fact it's £20.95.  As that is the price that has to be paid, it's the only price that should be quoted.

 

The same should apply to ebay where, like others, I alwys give preference to items that are offered with free postage.  If faster or more secure carriage is required by the buyer, he could select that himself and pay a premium for it.  Having said that, I never understand why a buyer should have to pay for insurance; responsibility for the package rests with the seller until it is delivered, so insurance can only benefit the seller and there seems no reason why the buyer should have to pay for it.  If the seller wants insurance, it should be included in the quoted purchase price.

 

DT.

How can you include postage it may need sending to the UK low cost OR it could also go anywhere in the world so High cost