DJM, the end.

[96701]

4 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

So 96701 is your real name then

My signature is my name. It appears on the bottom of all my posts.

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

I personally feel that really the only thing that can be done is find some buyers for the J94, Class 17, Mermaid and Shark tooling (as far as I can tell that is all that exists) so those can continue to be available from a more reliable manufacturer, clear out any existing stocks of models, spare parts, etc to the trade and then call it a night.

 

Whether that raises enough cash to make a dent in the debts who knows.  One thing for certain, Dave would be wise to walk away from the industry and never return.

 

But you just know he will....

 

EDIT - Just seen this page on his website:

 

https://djmodels.co.uk/past-models

 

What the hell was "Project X and Y"?

 

Again, given the transient nature of life, the internet and reputations, for posterity the page reads:

 

Above picture, receiving an award for innovation (Gwyn Humphries Memorial Trophy) from Pete Waterman at Warley 2012

 

So what have i done? OK, this section will read more like a ‘blowing my own trumpet’ section, but i think it’s only right to show my ‘credentials’, as it were to those who might be wondering.

 

With my Previous company i designed, the following models….
N gauge Locomotives
Super Voyager, Class 66, Hymek, Western, 22, 9F, Terrier, B17, B1, A3, A4, 73 re-tool, 67, 56, 58 ,26, 27, 33, Britannia, 156, 57xx Pannier, 28xx, Hall, 153, 156, Voyager, Class 66 re-tool, 121, 122, HST, 86

N gauge wagons
Megafrets, FEA Spine wagons, Silver Bullets, IOA, JNA, Ferrywagon, telescopic hood wagon, Stove R*, Snowplough*, KTA Pocket Wagon

OO gauge Locomotives
Class 22, Western, 10000*, Sentinel*, Beattie Well Tank*

OO Gauge wagons
Megafrets, FEA Spine Wagons, MBA, MCA, IOA, JNA, KTA pocket wagon.

Continental N
Silver Bullet*, Curtain Sided Steel Wagon*, Telescopic hood wagon*, Gabs wagon*, Tanoos Wagon*.

* For external commissions.

 

Since leaving my previous employ, i have also designed the following OO models…..
Irish Ballast Wagon*, Irish bubble cement wagon*, GWR King*, 14xx*, J94, PBA wagon* Turbot wagon*, Ialnos Wagon, JIA China Clay Wagon*, Gate Stock*, 02 Steam Loco*, Beattie Well Tank re-design*, GWR 1361 tank loco*, D600*, Class 92,

* For external commissions.

N gauge locomotives
Class 17, Class 23, J94, King, Project W & X, Class 92, GWR King,

And the following N gauge wagons,
Mermaid Wagon, Ialnos Wagon, Shark Plough Van, Crocodile F, Turbot Wagon, HUO hopper wagon

 

To be added to this list will be the N and OO gauge APT when it’s released.

 

For my previous employer i also designed the following; N gauge, OO and O gauge semaphore signals, N gauge Magnetic couplers, OO and N gauge Catenary masts.

 

I also introduced to the UK RTR N gauge market DCC ready 6 pin decoder compatibility as standard, pin point bearing pick ups, low friction mechanisms, Close coupling, NEM coupling pockets, underfloor switches for lighting, below window mechanisms, alternate length couplers.

 

I have also received 18 models of the year awards, and 3 innovations of the year awards.

 

 

[Ravenser]

A further thought:

 

It strikes me that DJM was in practice the embodiment of something very familiar: "Froth".

 

We all know what "froth" is on a model railway forum. It is arguable that DJM was an attempt to do it for real.

 

The whole idea of the "step-change" and showing the manufacturers how it's done is a quintessential piece of "frothing" argument. Look again at the DJM "mission statement" Edwardian quoted

 

Quote

.....until around 2005 when I was asked my opinion on a new N gauge class 73, and the rest as they say, is history.....I have felt that there can be a large step change again in quality, reliability, detail and features on current N, OO and O gauge locomotives and rolling stock.

 

Unlike some critics on web forums, I decided to put my money where my mouth is, literally, and go it alone with this venture.

 

I suddenly have a sense that Dave Jones was trying to "live the dream" of every strident poster in a RTR froth-fest. The idea of duplicating other companies models to knock them out and teach existing manufacturers a lesson (The intended target is usually Hornby) fits very well with DJM's targeting of Hornby's back catalogue - as do his often highly-critical comments on forum about how Hornby approached the market. DJM's choice of projects was calculated to gladden the heart of all wish-listers and frothers. The rivalries over who did what fit perfectly with the frothing cries of "We want a new top-spec XYZ - but Hornby mustn't be allowed to make it..". From this perspective Dave Jones' heavy online presence makes perfect sense - no wonder if he thought he had the pulse of the market, if he thought that "frothing" and wish-listing was the voice of the RTR market .He was, if you like , the embodiment of that culture

 

And I don't think the resulting course of product development was well judged. 

 

There is an instructive parallel. SLW was also founded to "raise the bar" in RTR and achieve  " a large step change again in quality, reliability, detail and features on current  OO gauge locomotives" It's website strapline declares "A refreshing new philosophy in model railway manufacturing"  . It has so far delivered one locomotive, which does what it says on the tin, at a premium price. It has not resorted to crowd-funding, and it has not made a long series of product announcements. The locos can be purchased readily, and there is not a breath of criticism of their mechanicals

 

As I wasn't exactly an admirer of Rail Express's editorial line and the culture that surrounded it during Phil Sutton's time I think I can say , without partisanship that he seems to have succeeded where Dave Jones hasn't. There is no suggestion that it owes anyone money, or that Phil Sutton is in any danger of losing his house. Both are "modeller-driven" businesses by people with substantial historic online footprints. Dave Jones started with substantial commercial support from Kernow and Hattons, and an existing relationship with a factory in China. Phil Sutton didn't. One has succeeded and the other is in liquidation

 

[classy52]

10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Again, given the transient nature of life, the internet and reputations, for posterity the page reads:

 

Above picture, receiving an award for innovation (Gwyn Humphries Memorial Trophy) from Pete Waterman at Warley 2012

 

So what have i done? OK, this section will read more like a ‘blowing my own trumpet’ section, but i think it’s only right to show my ‘credentials’, as it were to those who might be wondering.

 

With my Previous company i designed, the following models….
N gauge Locomotives
Super Voyager, Class 66, Hymek, Western, 22, 9F, Terrier, B17, B1, A3, A4, 73 re-tool, 67, 56, 58 ,26, 27, 33, Britannia, 156, 57xx Pannier, 28xx, Hall, 153, 156, Voyager, Class 66 re-tool, 121, 122, HST, 86

N gauge wagons
Megafrets, FEA Spine wagons, Silver Bullets, IOA, JNA, Ferrywagon, telescopic hood wagon, Stove R*, Snowplough*, KTA Pocket Wagon

OO gauge Locomotives
Class 22, Western, 10000*, Sentinel*, Beattie Well Tank*

OO Gauge wagons
Megafrets, FEA Spine Wagons, MBA, MCA, IOA, JNA, KTA pocket wagon.

Continental N
Silver Bullet*, Curtain Sided Steel Wagon*, Telescopic hood wagon*, Gabs wagon*, Tanoos Wagon*.

* For external commissions.

 

Since leaving my previous employ, i have also designed the following OO models…..
Irish Ballast Wagon*, Irish bubble cement wagon*, GWR King*, 14xx*, J94, PBA wagon* Turbot wagon*, Ialnos Wagon, JIA China Clay Wagon*, Gate Stock*, 02 Steam Loco*, Beattie Well Tank re-design*, GWR 1361 tank loco*, D600*, Class 92,

* For external commissions.

N gauge locomotives
Class 17, Class 23, J94, King, Project W & X, Class 92, GWR King,

And the following N gauge wagons,
Mermaid Wagon, Ialnos Wagon, Shark Plough Van, Crocodile F, Turbot Wagon, HUO hopper wagon

 

To be added to this list will be the N and OO gauge APT when it’s released.

 

For my previous employer i also designed the following; N gauge, OO and O gauge semaphore signals, N gauge Magnetic couplers, OO and N gauge Catenary masts.

 

I also introduced to the UK RTR N gauge market DCC ready 6 pin decoder compatibility as standard, pin point bearing pick ups, low friction mechanisms, Close coupling, NEM coupling pockets, underfloor switches for lighting, below window mechanisms, alternate length couplers.

 

I have also received 18 models of the year awards, and 3 innovations of the year awards.

 

 

 

Wow what a guy I'm sold, where do I sign up...oh wait

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I wonder how Dapol feel about being described as 'my previous company'?

 

 

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

I've wondered about this before. The Dapol B Set coaches have the same extra window as the old Airfix/Hornby ones, and the Dapol 9F is about a scale foot too wide over the cylinders, as is the old Hornby 9F. Odd coincidences.

 

Given that the B-set tooling dates from the 70s, I'd be extremely surprised if CAD files ever existed for them. 

[melmoth]

1 minute ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Given that the B-set tooling dates from the 70s, I'd be extremely surprised if CAD files ever existed for them. 

 

Yes, very good point, and also true for the Triang -Hornby 9F. But I wondered if the N gauge models had been produced by scanning OO versions, or using them in some way as a starting point.  I don't know if that would be feasible or practical or whether I'm just approaching tinfoil hat conspiracy territory.

[Ian Hargrave]

19 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

A further thought:

 

It strikes me that DJM was in practice the embodiment of something very familiar: "Froth".

 

We all know what "froth" is on a model railway forum. It is arguable that DJM was an attempt to do it for real.

 

The whole idea of the "step-change" and showing the manufacturers how it's done is a quintessential piece of "frothing" argument. Look again at the DJM "mission statement" Edwardian quoted

 

 

I suddenly have a sense that Dave Jones was trying to "live the dream" of every strident poster in a RTR froth-fest. The idea of duplicating other companies models to knock them out and teach existing manufacturers a lesson (The intended target is usually Hornby) fits very well with DJM's targeting of Hornby's back catalogue - as do his often highly-critical comments on forum about how Hornby approached the market. DJM's choice of projects was calculated to gladden the heart of all wish-listers and frothers. The rivalries over who did what fit perfectly with the frothing cries of "We want a new top-spec XYZ - but Hornby mustn't be allowed to make it..". From this perspective Dave Jones' heavy online presence makes perfect sense - no wonder if he thought he had the pulse of the market, if he thought that "frothing" and wish-listing was the voice of the RTR market .He was, if you like , the embodiment of that culture

 

And I don't think the resulting course of product development was well judged. 

 

There is an instructive parallel. SLW was also founded to "raise the bar" in RTR and achieve  " a large step change again in quality, reliability, detail and features on current  OO gauge locomotives" It's website strapline declares "A refreshing new philosophy in model railway manufacturing"  . It has so far delivered one locomotive, which does what it says on the tin, at a premium price. It has not resorted to crowd-funding, and it has not made a long series of product announcements. The locos can be purchased readily, and there is not a breath of criticism of their mechanicals

 

As I wasn't exactly an admirer of Rail Express's editorial line and the culture that surrounded it during Phil Sutton's time I think I can say , without partisanship that he seems to have succeeded where Dave Jones hasn't. There is no suggestion that it owes anyone money, or that Phil Sutton is in any danger of losing his house. Both are "modeller-driven" businesses by people with substantial historic online footprints. Dave Jones started with substantial commercial support from Kernow and Hattons, and an existing relationship with a factory in China. Phil Sutton didn't. One has succeeded and the other is in liquidation

 

 

Glad you mention Phil Sutton. He deserves more support and credit than he gets on this forum.His is a success story that seems not to be heard too often. I wonder why that is . Thing is he delivers accuracy and performance to astound,has a modest quality production and asks for nothing upfront.If you happen to see him at a show any time,talk to him. You might learn something. 

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

Yes, very good point, and also true for the Triang -Hornby 9F. But I wondered if the N gauge models had been produced by scanning OO versions, or using them in some way as a starting point.  I don't know if that would be feasible or practical or whether I'm just approaching tinfoil hat conspiracy territory.

 

Suddenly I think of the 3D print 92 in 7mm scale that turned up on ebay

[melmoth]

21 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

I wonder how Dapol feel about being described as 'my previous company'?

 

 

 

Relieved?

[7013]

Have managed to read through twenty pages, and it all be coming a bit repetitive now.

[Hal Nail]

10 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Have managed to read through twenty pages, and it all be coming a bit repetitive now.

A sterling effort on two fronts: dedication and understatement.

[jonhall]

53 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

Yes, very good point, and also true for the Triang -Hornby 9F. But I wondered if the N gauge models had been produced by scanning OO versions, or using them in some way as a starting point.  I don't know if that would be feasible or practical or whether I'm just approaching tinfoil hat conspiracy territory.

 

 

Certainly the rumour when the n gauge 73 was first issued was that it had a great similarity to the OO Lima 73, as if it had been reverse engineered from a model in a different scale - when you think about it, that's an an easy (if not very ethical) way of getting Chinese production up quickly - send them something physical and tell them to shrink it.

 

Jon

[Ian Hargrave]

54 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Have managed to read through twenty pages, and it all be coming a bit repetitive now.

 

Your frustration and boredom are understandable.But consider this if you will .This is a collective catharsis because DJM was virtually a child of this forum and apart from cash much emotive,frothing energy was invested in this wayward erratic infant. 

 

At at least one among us,apart from yours truly,will no doubt remember the one ( and only ) event sponsored by RMWeb in ,I think,September 2014 at the O2 Arena in Coventry. One special star billing was a presentation  given by the then man of the moment ...one D Jones late of Dapol now sweeping all before him with promises of a Roosevelt “ new deal” in  model rail production.  One question asked by a member of the audience was what was his ultimate ambition.The answer? To retire to the Caribbean having made his pile. To this day I cannot remember whether or not his tongue was in his cheek. After that I remember also a conversation I had with Mike Stationmaster and Robin Sweet of A Nod To Brent fame about the new OO King planned with Hattons who coincidentally were also there on that fateful day.We parted full,of optimism for a bright new dawn.

 

    O tempora,O mores etc......or put another way......end of.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by Ian Hargrave
Spelling

[chris p bacon]

4 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

At at least one among us,apart from yours truly,will no doubt remember the one ( and only ) event sponsored by RMWeb in ,I think,September 2014 at the O2 Arena in Coventry. One special star billing was a presentation  given by the then man of the moment ...one D Jones late of Dapol now sweeping all before him with promises of a Roosevelt “ new deal” in  model rail production.  One question asked by a member of the audience was what was his ultimate ambition.The answer? To retire to the Caribbean having made his pile. To this day I cannot remember whether or not his tongue was in his cheek.

 

I was there (loved it)

 

I remember the presentation, I came away unimpressed but then I'm a huge cynic when someone starts sales talk.

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

Glad you mention Phil Sutton. He deserves more support and credit than he gets on this forum.His is a success story that seems not to be heard too often. I wonder why that is . 

 

Because the Class 24 is - horror of horrors - a diesel.  Now if he'd made a model of some obscure industrial tiny tea urn he'd be carried into model shows high on the shoulders of members of this forum in a gold plated sedan chair on cushions made from baby goose down and the feathers of peacocks, whilst other forum members laid fronds of palm leaves and rose petals before him.

Not that I'm suggesting this is a particularly steam-heavy forum you understand...

 

I do agree though, Phil Sutton has taken a rightly cautious approach to expansion, milking the Class 24 market first before even announcing anything else.  For a small operator I can't help thinking it is better to set modest growth targets and make sure you deliver.  As for the deafening roar of apathy towards his success, I'm sure he can put up with that as the sales roll in. 

[Ravenser]

42 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

 

Certainly the rumour when the n gauge 73 was first issued was that it had a great similarity to the OO Lima 73, as if it had been reverse engineered from a model in a different scale - when you think about it, that's an an easy (if not very ethical) way of getting Chinese production up quickly - send them something physical and tell them to shrink it.

 

Jon

 

This in some sense reinforces my perception that N gauge is always one step behind OO, mechanically and cosmetically - that the "new level" in N gauge amounts to moving things up to the level of the previous generation in OO - which OO itself is now leaving behind.

 

I do wonder more and more about that curious Gauge O 3D print body of a Class 92 that appeared on eBay.

 

Could that have been an attempt to salvage something from the development work /CAD with Factory One? Do a large scale 3D print using whatever CAD you hold here, send it to Factory Two to be scanned and shrunk, and start the detailing of the new CAD from there. You should by that means be able to recover the fundamental shape of the bodyshell, and by then "superdetailing" the basic body in CAD development generate your detailed model......

[Ian Hargrave]

7 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

 

Because the Class 24 is - horror of horrors - a diesel.  Now if he'd made a model of some obscure industrial tiny tea urn he'd be carried into model shows high on the shoulders of members of this forum in a gold plated sedan chair on cushions made from baby goose down and the feathers of peacocks, whilst other forum members laid fronds of palm leaves and rose petals before him.

Not that I'm suggesting this is a particularly steam-heavy forum you understand...

 

I do agree though, Phil Sutton has taken a rightly cautious approach to expansion, milking the Class 24 market first before even announcing anything else.  For a small operator I can't help thinking it is better to set modest growth targets and make sure you deliver.  As for the deafening roar of apathy towards his success, I'm sure he can put up with that as the sales roll in. 

  

That may indeed play a part in his ( relative ) under the radar presence. I think though that there’s a bit more to it than that. He deserves and should have better appreciation than he gets. But his success does prove that one guy with able assistance from  a  sidekick  ....Jamie Walsh.....can deliver. He operates within a limited range.Mr.Jones had perhaps too many ideas for his....and our...own good

 

[Les1952]

Just a point of information - the Gwyn Humphreys Trophy.

 

This is given for innovation- Dave Jones got it for using RMWeb in development of the Class 52 - a sign of how things have changed since 2012.

 

Hornby got the award for Elite, Bachmann for Dynamis, KKEishindo for T gauge, Revolution for crowdfunding, Brant Hickman for "Rorgyle", MERG for pocket money kits, Romiley Methodist modellers for a suite of small innovations on "Gillan and Brown".  There have been several others.  In each case the award was given on merit.

 

Les

 

[rob D2]

23 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

  

That may indeed play a part in his ( relative ) under the radar presence. I think though that there’s a bit more to it than that. He deserves and should have better appreciation than he gets. But his success does prove that one guy with able assistance from  a  sidekick  ....Jamie Walsh.....can deliver. He operates within a limited range.Mr.Jones had perhaps too many ideas for his....and our...own good

 

They’ve made a good model, but I’d wager you don’t hear much about it is because their one prototype is quite niche and I’d imagine they are busy recouping the tooling costs by releasing every variation known to man first.

 

if it was a more popular paraffin can with wider geographical spread I think they’d be froth a plenty .

[Markwj]

I quite agree the 'I put my house on the line' comment needs to be stamped on. No one asked him to and no one made him do it. Dave took a calculated risk with his own money then took another risk with everyone else's. Unfortunately it hasn't paid off and although maybe to some not huge amounts but people have lost out. It may be money I won't miss but this doesn't mean I can't be annoyed about it. I know Dave may have lost more than most but lots of people have gone into liquidation before and yes it's crap but lots of people pick themselves up again and carry on. Dave has shown he can bounce back and he probably will but no venture he is part of will ever see my money.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Markwj
No idea why this post has re appeared but won't leave my reply box without posting!

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, 96701 said:

My signature is my name. It appears on the bottom of all my posts.

 

Not on Android.  See screenshot:

 

[96701]

Just now, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Not on Android.  See screenshot:

 

Ah, I see. Phil Bancroft, at your service.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Glad you mention Phil Sutton. He deserves more support and credit than he gets on this forum.His is a success story that seems not to be heard too often. I wonder why that is ...

Single very niche product? That has to limit interest. I can see the product is very much the right stuff.

 

Offer an EE type 1 or Brush 2 made to the same standard and I would suddenly be very interested. Just as I am recently and suddenly very interested in Accurascale (EE type 5) Cavalex (class 91+mk4), and my interest in Dapol has recently revived (they actually have got near to production of the NBL DE type 2...).

 

The old saw about 'make a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door' is only true for that part of the world population that wants mousetraps.

[Matt C]

9 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Not on Android.  See screenshot:

 

 

 

Im on Android and Phil Bancroft appears in his signature for me ?