HS2 under review

[298]

I notice the objectors are still banging the same old drum that you could upgrade the West Coast line to get the extra capacity that HS2 would provide.

(as mentioned above)

 

They don't seem to appreciate (or just want to ignore, more likely) the problem of putting extra tracks in would entail, which is the only way the extra capacity could be provided.

Or is it just Nimbyism without substance, i.e keep on repeating the same (discredited) logic and somebody might eventually listen!

 

Keith

 

The problem is the Nimby's are trying to sell some kind of misplaced social responsibility to discredit the business case, when in reality I'd give them a bit (bit not too much) respect for saying "Look, I'm a NIMBY and the presence of HS2 would devalue my quality of life". At my local level, I'm wondering if the NIMBY's in villages along the northern section of the route really understand that one of the higher profile Anti HS2 voices- a Coventry City councillor, is really another arch enemy in calling for WCML upgrades as this will lead to a major increase in noise and a large land grab as the section from there to Birmingham is four tracked, instead of a noise barriered HS route that'll avoid many of these pretty little villages.

 

The same councillor has also commented that Coventry will miss out as HS2 won't stop there, well the last time I looked we have an International station which is easier for us to access than most of the people who live in the city it's named after 22 miles up the road, so surely a HS2 station would offer an equal benefit instead of trying to advertise the fact he thinks we're somehow missing out...? It's true there will probably be a reduced service to London, which will actually be of benefit in the long run as a higher percentage of seats will end up being used by Coventry passengers and quite franky we're spoilt by the current service frequency provided by Virgin and LM. Less trains will also ease the bottleneck at Coventry, which would be of benefit on a local level as routing the proposed "Nuckle" Nuneaton-Leamington trains would currently be a nightmare to the timetable.

 

And as for saying Coventry will become a backwater, how come the 13th most populated is only rated 71st for shopping...?

[ess1uk]

they should just get on with it and go straight for Leeds an Manchester with the SNP building their line south to meet up at the border

forget Heathrow and the ideas of following the M40

[SNCF stephen]

I notice the objectors are still banging the same old drum that you could upgrade the West Coast line to get the extra capacity that HS2 would provide.

(as mentioned above)

 

They don't seem to appreciate (or just want to ignore, more likely) the problem of putting extra tracks in would entail, which is the only way the extra capacity could be provided.

Or is it just Nimbyism without substance, i.e keep on repeating the same (discredited) logic and somebody might eventually listen!

 

Keith

 

Well said, plus the amount of disruption it would cause would mean that anyone near the line would effectively be without a decent rail service for some time (anyone remember the Trent Valley improvements?).

[QWILPEN]

they should just get on with it and go straight for Leeds an Manchester with the SNP building their line south to meet up at the border

forget Heathrow and the ideas of following the M40

 

fully agree. lets get on with it.

 

steve

[APOLLO]

I'm 100% for HS2, but the current plan needs to link Manchester City & Airport to Birmingham City & Airport (yea also a branch to Sheffield & Leeds) and continue to London City / Heathrow & tie into HS1. The Heathrow to Man Airport link is most vital. Tie up with the airlines & the potential is huge. BUT - lets also have more, a hell of alot more spent on our provincial and cross country services. Not everyone wishes to go at high speed to / from Londinium. Trans pennine electrification, etc is a good start.

 

In todays sunday times was an article about the proposals, with the transport minister saying double deck trains were vital, and some consultant brain dead goon having allready designed twin level trains with panoramic glass roofs and top quality restaraunts where "one could dine in luxury whilst watching the english countryside rush by at over 200 mph" - !!!!!!!!!! - You will just about finish your starter as you arrive in Birmingham !!

 

Brit 15

[298]

they should just get on with it and go straight for Leeds an Manchester with the SNP building their line south to meet up at the border

forget Heathrow and the ideas of following the M40

 

There are already enough complaints that it is too "London-centric", building straight to the north won't make high speed journeys from Birmingham to Manchester possible. And as for Scotland finding the cash for such a project, they can't even complete a city tram line....

[Kris]

Today's update the BBC's take http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16478954

There was also a discussion (well argument) on the BBC breakfast news between Christian Woolmar, Pete Waterman and a NIMBY.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The go-ahead is to be announced today.

It looks like a quarter to a third of the journey will be in tunnels, cuttings or behind earth banks. I hope they have a decent seat back entertainment system?

 

.

[caradoc]

Today's update the BBC's take http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16478954

There was also a discussion (well argument) on the BBC breakfast news between Christian Woolmar, Pete Waterman and a NIMBY.

 

The NIMBY said, effectively, that nurses, police officers and soldiers will have to be sacked to pay for HS2. Is no allegation too low for these people ? And as for Wolmar, who claims to be both a rail expert (the only one the BBC know of) and a rail supporter, words fail me.

 

If such people had their way we would still be travelling by horse and cart on unmade roads.

[Kris]

The go-ahead is to be announced today.

It looks like a quarter to a third of the journey will be in tunnels, cuttings or behind earth banks. I hope they have a decent seat back entertainment system?

 

.

 

Is the journey long enough to justify a decent entertainment system?

[RJS1977]

The BBC also have Ben Ando (one of the ModelRail staff!)....

 

Are the people who say the money spent on HS1 would be better spent on schools, hospitals, police the same people who want schools, hospitals, police sacrificed to pay for a reduction in petrol tax?

['CHARD]

The BBC also have Ben Ando (one of the ModelRail staff!)....

...and member of this forum.

[Ron Ron Ron]

It's all very well as long as the tax payer isn't taken for a complete ride on this.

I would hope that the cost will be clawed back directly from fares, rather than endless subsidies for decades to come.

A quick back of a fag packet calculation would mean a levy of between £100 and £150 on top of the fare for ever trip over 20 years. That's without factoring in interest charges, cost inflation and operating costs.

 

I do have to question the alleged economic benefits which appear to be largely a complete fabrication, using various notions such as a 30 minute saving will save on labour costs for those business travellers using the service, equating to £20 per trip, times X journeys over Y years = £££billions. Extra work from time saved generates Z £££billions of extra income for those businesses. What complete tosh ! No account taken of the fact some travellers will just leave for work a little later, that the time saving may be used in other ways or that leisure travellers may also be using the service.

 

Why don't they just come clean with a sound business case that aims to at least break even on its own merits, without resorting to gross embellishment ?

 

.

[Guest Max Stafford]

There are already enough complaints that it is too "London-centric", building straight to the north won't make high speed journeys from Birmingham to Manchester possible. And as for Scotland finding the cash for such a project, they can't even complete a city tram line....

 

 

Larkhall branch, SAK, A-B.

 

How many new railways have been built on YOUR side, pal? (that serve something other than London)

 

Dave.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Max Stafford

[Re6/6]

If ever the argument can be lost via radio phone-in..... I'm just listening to the Radio 5 breakfast phone in and in the 'anti' representative is a Joe Somebody-or-other, the co-ordinator of all the anti groups who is a completely hysterical individual constantly interrupting, huffing and puffing and generally a very poor representative of his case. Perhaps their case is now lost if this is the best that they can muster. I have never heard such nonsensical misinformation that this bloke is ranting on about. Unfortunately at the Beeb, with these sort of 'debates' they seem to care more about argument and people shouting at each other rather than reasoned and informed debate. 'Twas ever thus, I'm afraid.

[Re6/6]

Yes!! It's now official!

 

...as for Christian Woolmar's views...a great disappointment.

 

And now he's just suggested that the labour and trains could be coming from China!

 

Thankfully at the end the voice of reason came on.... Pete Waterman....."build it and business will come" he had said previously.

[S.A.C Martin]

Listening to Radio 5 Live, I swore extremely loudly with some exasperation, causing the chap in the Audi next to me in the traffic at Junction five of the M25 to jump! The woman at Ashford International who stated "you'll be familiar with the HS1 trains as they are the same as the Eurostars" was hugely misinformed, going on to say "that the twenty year old trains were upgraded for use on HS1" later on.

 

Does nobody do any research on the Beeb? She got the nickname right, "Javelin" and not much else I am afraid!

 

The "debate" was laughable to the extent that the people against HS1 don't seem to have any form of cohesive argument against the new high speed rail link, aside from "it's expensive to go on HS1" or "not in my backyard".

 

Surely paying for better service is inevitably going to be more expensive than the cheap (sic), slow trains? I do take the argument that the services provided need to be affordable, but surely if you're paying for faster journey times, you should pay more than someone on a slow train going to the same destination?

 

Or have I missed the point...

[Re6/6]

Does nobody do any research on the Beeb? She got the nickname right, "Javelin" and not much else I am afraid!

 

I agree, the general level of research/knowledge by all these new reporters that they put on is now totally lamentable. It doesn't stop there. Listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday interviewing a WW2 Spitfire pilot, he was unaware that they were single seaters!...."who fires the guns when engaging the Messerschmitt in a battle?".....deep expelling of breath....

[S.A.C Martin]

Listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday interviewing a WW2 Spitfire pilot, he was unaware that they were single seaters!...."who fires the guns when engaging the Messerschmitt in a battle?".....deep expelling of breath....

 

[off topic]

 

He asked WHAT?!

 

The Spitfire - THE symbol of British determination and spirit in the second world war - seen annually and publically at every Armistice day - and he asked that?!

 

How utterly crass and disgusting. How can he not know?! How?!

 

I could understand someone maybe of my generation, or younger, who maybe doesn't take the interest in recent history or have relatives left that fought in the second world war - but Jeremy Vine?!

 

[/off topic]

Edited January 10, 2012 by S.A.C Martin

[roythebus]

Reminds me of a conversation with a friend from Finland; I asked him if he spoke German. Yes, achtung Spitfeuer arghh was his reply. I learn it from English war comics.

 

Meanwhile, back on thread, Pete Waterman on BBC Breakfast this morning, absolutely brilliant. The other side, ranting loonies; the chap from Rail magazine was shot down by Waterman too! Achtung Waterman aarghh. Waterman for transport minister?

 

As for the report from Ashford, the usual uninformed biased crap we've come to expect.BBC Kent no better either. HS1 "underused capacity". Have they not heard of DB's intention to run to St.Pancras or the other proposals to run commuter services Lille to Ashford?

 

My reservations against HS2, not enough, not far enough, and too long time scale to build it. As for the loony who said the WCML can increase capacity by a third, what planet does he live on?

[PenrithBeacon]

I think that spending £32B for a small reduction in journey time is unacceptable. British cities are far too close to make 200mph running worthwhile, 125-140mph is quite fast enough and can be done using existing, but re-engineered, Victorian infrastructure. It is worth noting that HS1 is a long way from achieving its projected benefits, this railway is very much underused.

 

There is no doubt that the railway network needs to be improved for the future but HS2 is not the way forward. But neither is a further upgrade to the WCML, there are limits to how much you can 'upgrade' a railway. There are underused railways from London to the north and midlands ie Marylebone to Birmingham and the MML to Leeds. These railways could and should be 'upgraded' to perform the function, there is already enough land for four tracks on both these to allow the necessary works to be made for 125-140mph running.

 

I'm not a NIMBY, the railway will run a good many tens of miles from me, but I am taxpayer and I object most strongly to my taxes being spent on this wastful project, particularly by a government which is employing an austerity programme which is seriously affecting so many citizens to their detriment.

 

Governments have a habit of spending gross amounts of money on useless projects and they will always find industry professionals who will support them. Politicians like to look back and say 'I did that' and the professionals like to have the projects on their CVs - it's good when building a career. The Dome, the Olympics, Nimrod, and any number of IT projects have all been supported and championed by governments of both hues and supported by professionals and all have been a total waste of space and money.

 

HS2 should not be built.

 

Regards

[Guest dilbert]

It's all very well as long as the tax payer isn't taken for a complete ride on this.

I would hope that the cost will be clawed back directly from fares, rather than endless subsidies for decades to come.

A quick back of a fag packet calculation would mean a levy of between £100 and £150 on top of the fare for ever trip over 20 years. That's without factoring in interest charges, cost inflation and operating costs.

 

I do have to question the alleged economic benefits which appear to be largely a complete fabrication, using various notions such as a 30 minute saving will save on labour costs for those business travellers using the service, equating to £20 per trip, times X journeys over Y years = £££billions. Extra work from time saved generates Z £££billions of extra income for those businesses. What complete tosh ! No account taken of the fact some travellers will just leave for work a little later, that the time saving may be used in other ways or that leisure travellers may also be using the service.

 

Why don't they just come clean with a sound business case that aims to at least break even on its own merits, without resorting to gross embellishment ?

 

It's amazing what can be done with an Excel spreadsheet and pivot tables... very few people end up with a true view of what the numbers are really about ... I wonder if the cost of inconvenience and time lost in implementing this project has been factored into the plan - I bet not.

 

A 90 mile link on current estimates that wil cost £32bn - the cost per mile is astronomical The cost overruns are going to be enormous on a fourteen year project - it will make the overun cost of the recently rebuilt Wembley stadium seem like child's play. The completion date for this probably needs to be extended to 2030 in any case.

 

The money would be better spent on the development of a true transport policy... dilbert

[ChrisWV10]

I'm all in favour of modernising and updating and increasing capacity and mostly in favour of HS2. However a cheaper and quickly implemented network wide solution to overcrowding and network congestion would seem to me to be

 

Get rid of 2 of the 4 empty 1st class carriages on Euston - Birmingham/Wolves (and elsewhere) pendolinos in favour of 2 std class

 

Increase the length of all those overcrowded 4&5 car EMUs/DMUs to.... 6! (or even 8. )

 

C.

Edited January 10, 2012 by ChrisWV10

[chrisf]

I would like to learn from one of the opponents to HS2 just how they would plan for growth in usage of the existing rail network. Let them consider how long it took to upgrade the West Coast main line and how quickly it is filling up. Adding a coach here and declassifying a coach there is just tinkering and IMHO will not work.

 

Compare the trunk rail network with the trunk road network. Did anyone think seriously that the trunk roads in existence before the coming of the motorways could have been improved to accommodate rapidly growing traffic? Of course not. New, and dare I say it high speed, routes were required. Successive governments recognised this and built the motorways which not only freed up capacity on the existing network but gave room for growth. Does that sound familiar? There were nimbys then too.

 

Chris

['CHARD]

Possibly the most famous NIMBY from days gone - Wordsworth.

 

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/rail/workingcopiesmmla/railfinals/wordsworth.html