'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Darryl Tooley]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

How many instances were there, in fact? 

By the mid-50s, none.  One or two East Anglian lines were still using six-wheelers at Nationalisation, but the ones on the Mid-Suffolk, withdrawn towards the end of 1951, were probably the last to go.

 

The last four-wheelers on Great Eastern metals went well before WW2, and these were suburban carriages.

 

D

[Zero Gravitas]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

My two have just arrived. Very nice. As promised a quick measure has been performed. 

 

The Hatton's underframe is a couple of millimetres longer than the Dapol Stove R body, and being based on older vehicles, it's significantly narrower than the latter, even had that been made to scale width.

 

In short, it wouldn't be an impossible conversion, but rather more difficult than making a better 'Stove' underframe using the Chivers kit parts. 

 

Perhaps Hatton's have a Stove of their own in mind...😇

 

John

 

  

interesting… and I shouldn’t really need to ask this, but I will: does the Hatton’s wheelbase match the Stove R?

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Zero Gravitas said:

interesting… and I shouldn’t really need to ask this, but I will: does the Hatton’s wheelbase match the Stove R?

It matches the drawings (and the Chivers Fish van kit), but I can't vouch for the Dapol model as I cut up the underframe to recover detail parts for my conversion.

 

John

[Edwardian]

Wow, I mean, wow!

 

The Hattons Genesis coaches are stunning.

 

Full disclosure, I was just one of around half a dozen RMWebbers invited to comment on the designs with a view to moving them to something typical of Nineteenth Century carriage practice. It led, I would say, to a bias on my part in favour of these coaches only in the sense that I could see the thought and attention Hattons were putting into prototypically literate and incredibly detailed models; I knew enough to know they were going to be good, though, to be frank, the publically released images of the coaches should have made their superiority obvious to everyone months ago. I would also want to make it clear that I have not received any discount or free product for review, or otherwise. It would have been nice - some manufacturers have be kind to me in this way - but that was not offered, so I can say that I have had no financial interest in promoting this product. The coaches pictured are mine, bought full price with my own hard-earned. Consequently, these are my disinterested views, free of any commercial taint.  

 

As I predicted, these Hattons coaches are infinitely superior to the imitative versions rushed out in their spite by Hornby, but, I have to say, the extent to which Hattons has out-classed its rival has exceeded my expectations. It had to be seen to be fully comprehended. Thus, it was wise to wait for the Hattons product, rather than waste money better spent on them rushing to buy the Hornby product. It must be admitted that I do have some of the Hornby coaches, they make a good basis to convert to Stroudley 4-wheelers and the 6-wheelers have a couple of body variants I wanted that were not covered by Hattons, but, really, where there are equivalent coaches in both ranges, especially given the comparable price point, why the Hell would you choose Hornby?

 

So, boxes. I find 'unboxing' videos where folk talk for 2 minutes about the packaging over a picture of the box to be pretty inane. Yes, it came in a box, now move on! However, the Hattons boxes are worth mentioning. They are delightfully small! I just love them. They remind me of Matchbox cars when they came in something about the size of a match box and no larger than it needed to be. So, I love the economy of the understated Hattons packaging; it helps saves the planet and saves storage space, but is also strangely satisfying!   

 

 

 

 

These are the GW 6-wheel set and represent the oil-lit variant of the Hattons tooling. I will mainly leave the pictures to talk for themselves .....

 

 

Above and below, the 4 6-wheel variants

 

 

 

Below, the 6-W Full or Luggage Brake:

 

 

Below the 6-W Lavatory Composite:

 

 

Below the 6-W 5-compartment Second:

 

 

Below the 6-W Brake Third:

 

 

An underside:

 

 

 

Comparisons with the Hornby equivalent; the rival takes on a 5-Compartment 4-wheel Third.

 

First, the boxes!

 

 

Below, overview with on the left the Hornby (gas-lit and apparently air-braked(!) in a simplified GW livery) and on the right the Hattons (oil-lit in full GW livery):

 

 

It might be worth taking the GW-style commode handles off the Hornby model (they come off easily, and using them on the Hattons coach. 

 

Below, closer view of the sides:

 

 

 

Below, non-stepped ends with Hornby left and Hattons right:

 

 

Below, stepped ends with Hornby left and Hattons right:

 

 

Below, undersides:

 

 

 

So, I think the superiority of the Hattons coaches, which really are superb, proved to be something of a fourgon conclusion...

 

 

Well done Hattons, keep them coming!!

 

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

a fourgon conclusion...

 

 

Groan!

 

 

[woodenhead]

@Edwardian Is that simplified GW livery on the Hornby model green or brown?

[melmerby]

Looks green to me🙂

[Edwardian]

10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@Edwardian Is that simplified GW livery on the Hornby model green or brown?

 

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Looks green to me🙂

 

It is brown, but I know what you mean. I did see a picture of the Hornby GW coaches in the products section of a magazine. They did indeed look green, which got me quite excited for a moment as they resembled West Norfolk livery! 

 

In this case, I took the pictures of the Hattons and Hornby coaches together a short time ago today. Conditions were indoors (it's a dull rainy day in the North) with the benefit of a daylight lamp I use for modelling. 

 

I conclude that there must be a green cast to the Hornby paint that comes to the fore in certain lighting conditions. 

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I conclude that there must be a green cast to the Hornby paint that comes to the fore in certain lighting conditions. 

Is that 'certain lighting condition' including "when placed next to something brown" 😄

 

The Hattons models are really something, I should have ordered some but I was moving away from OO at the time, however, the only OO I now own is GW and these would have been perfect.  Oh well, perhaps in a future re-run.

[longchap]

51 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Below the 6-W Lavatory Composite:

 

I was hesitating about ordering a lavatory. Rats, too late now of course. It looks superb and I'm awaiting my pre-order delivery with mounting anticipation.

 

Thank you very much for your photos and commentary.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Is that 'certain lighting condition' including "when placed next to something brown" 😄

 

LOL. Glad I wasn't sipping coffee when I read that. Certainly a coffee spluttering comment!

 

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

The Hattons models are really something, I should have ordered some but I was moving away from OO at the time, however, the only OO I now own is GW and these would have been perfect.  Oh well, perhaps in a future re-run.

 

1 minute ago, longchap said:

I was hesitating about ordering a lavatory. Rats, too late now of course. It looks superb and I'm awaiting my pre-order delivery with mounting anticipation.

 

Thank you very much for your photos and commentary.

 

I hope so. I have a feeling one can never have too many of these!!!!

 

[ChrisN]

The Hornby 4 wheeler looks shorter than the Hattons one.  Is that correct, and what are the relevant lengths?  (Conversions, conversions, looking for easy conversions.)

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

How many instances were there, in fact? 

 

6 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

By the mid-50s, none.  One or two East Anglian lines were still using six-wheelers at Nationalisation, but the ones on the Mid-Suffolk, withdrawn towards the end of 1951, were probably the last to go.

 

The last four-wheelers on Great Eastern metals went well before WW2, and these were suburban carriages.

 

D

And the Tollesbury light railway although they ran in mixed rakes with ex W&U bogie saloons and even in mixed goods trains. They were heavily modified however with smaller wheels/raised buffer beams and fitted with end doors for the conductor-guard to walk through the train. 

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

The Hornby 4 wheeler looks shorter than the Hattons one.  Is that correct, and what are the relevant lengths?  (Conversions, conversions, looking for easy conversions.)

 

4-Wheel: The Hornby ones, barely modified from their Stroudley origins (they lack bolections) scale at the Stroudley standard length of 26'.  The Hattons I had thought were 28' over the body, but in fact scale out at 27'6".

 

6-Wheel: Both Hornby and Hattons scale out at 32'

[melmerby]

Non bogie GWR coaches have come in 5 lengths not necessarily dependent on wheel count

25' 0¾", 26' 0¾", 26' 10", 28' 0¾" & 31' 0¾", (also in 8' & 8' 6" widths)

 

From Michael Harris book.

 

Russell has a U12 with a length of 28' 6¾" which I can't find in the Harris list

Also a U16 & U19.

They seem to originate pre 1890 which is before Harris starts his lots.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by melmerby

[MyRule1]

7 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

 

The last four-wheelers on Great Eastern metals went well before WW2, and these were suburban carriages.

 

After 2+ years waiting, that's not going to stop me running the LNER brown ones on my WW2 dated layout.

 

Even it it gets. The full attention of the EBRC. for those who missed see it posts from October onwards here

 

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

They seem to originate pre 1890 which is before Harris starts his lots.

 

See http://www.gwrcoaches.org.uk/index.html - many arc-roof types from the 1870s and 80s. 

[JohnR]

These are absolutely gorgeous, and I really hope that Hattons will do some re-runs of the popular liveries that have clearly been very popular.

 

I had in mind a little micro layout to use the pre-war Brown LNER ones with a Bachmann J72, but as it wasnt a priority I didnt pre-order. 

 

The style of those GWR ones are also tempting me to do something with them too! 

[Coppercap]

These really are absolutely fantastic, and a bargain, IMO!

I'd only seen the Hornby ones on here, YouTube and in their oversize boxes in the shops, and wasn't overly impressed with them. Hattons did such a good job of keeping us updated with their own videos and releasing pre-production samples for review, plus having double footboards fitted as standard, I went ahead and pre-ordered several GWR 6-wheelers and a similar number of 4-wheelers.

 

One nice touch is the addition of extra footboards, so that you can convert from the fitted double footboards to a single footboard, as many of this sort of coach would have had in later life. Unfortunately there is no mention of this on the instruction leaflet! On said leaflet there are instructions on how to remove the centre sliding wheelset and axleboxes on the 6-wheelers, thus creating a long-wheelbase 4-wheeler. However, as the lower footboards have a gap in the centre (to allow clearance for these axleboxes on curves), the lower footboard would then look a bit odd, so they would look better if replaced with just the single footboard (But mine are staying as 6-wheelers with their double footboards!).

Edited September 22, 2022 by Coppercap

[No Decorum]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

… where there are equivalent coaches in both ranges, especially given the comparable price point, why the Hell would you choose Hornby?

 

Your question was no doubt rhetorical but I’m going to have a go at answering it anyhow. I can appreciate that people who want pre-grouping coaches for their locomotives to pull might welcome the Hatton’s coaches. However, purely my own point of view is that there is little point in having a model that isn’t a model of anything in particular. Hornby’s models are not particularly well detailed, I grant you, but they are at least an attempt to portray Stroudley coaches. As such, I’m happy to have four of them in the appropriate livery (avoiding the overlong one). If people are happy to have the Hatton’s coaches, that’s just fine by me.

 

Perhaps because of the Hornby coaches, Dapol might not want to risk 00 versions of their 0 scale coaches. That would be a pity because I fancy they’d be rather good.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, No Decorum said:

Your question was no doubt rhetorical but I’m going to have a go at answering it anyhow. I can appreciate that people who want pre-grouping coaches for their locomotives to pull might welcome the Hatton’s coaches. However, purely my own point of view is that there is little point in having a model that isn’t a model of anything in particular. Hornby’s models are not particularly well detailed, I grant you, but they are at least an attempt to portray Stroudley coaches. As such, I’m happy to have four of them in the appropriate livery (avoiding the overlong one). If people are happy to have the Hatton’s coaches, that’s just fine by me.

 

Perhaps because of the Hornby coaches, Dapol might not want to risk 00 versions of their 0 scale coaches. That would be a pity because I fancy they’d be rather good.

 

You may recall that I mentioned I had some Hornby coaches for conversion to Stroudley 4-wheelers, so that answer had already been given. As Hornby's was an attempt to portray generic coaches using Stroudley designs, they fail for both purposes, yet several 4-wheelers are sufficiently close to their origins to be capable of nudging towards decent Stroudleys.

 

Otherwise my comments obviously only had relevance to folk who are interested in generic coaches or who might be interested in the Hattons versions or how the rivals stack up 

[andyman7]

On a purely practical level, folk who want some pretty four/six wheel vintage coaches for their model railway may well go for Hornby simply because of availability.

 

There have been a number of snippy comments about Hornby's models being designed to sabotage Hattons' efforts but there seems to be room for both. 

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

On a purely practical level, folk who want some pretty four/six wheel vintage coaches for their model railway may well go for Hornby simply because of availability.

 

There have been a number of snippy comments about Hornby's models being designed to sabotage Hattons' efforts but there seems to be room for both. 

 

I'd be more convinced by that if the Hornby ones were as cheap as they look. At least with Hornby's Oxford Terrier, the price point was significantly lower than the more refined and accurate rival product, so the Hornby Terrier filled a particular place in the market.

 

I cannot believe I got such beautiful coaches as these Hattons for 30 squids a pop.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Conditions were indoors (it's a dull rainy day in the North) with the benefit of a daylight lamp I use for modelling. 

What sort of Daylight lamp?

If a fluorescent it will likely have light with a spike at a wavelength of 550nm which the eye ignores but cameras record faithfully. 550nm is green.

The spectrum of "white" light from a lamp is far from pure with several spikes at different wavelengths.

 

The green GWR coach is actually mainly green in that picture according to a RGB sample. The red component is too low and the blue too high.

(I'm sampling the digital image not the screen)

[D3489gibson]

Morning all, 

 

Took my two Engineers ones to the club last night, and put them through their paces, and the pointwork, on Beckwick whilst ironing out track faults. Stuck them behind D4001, and paired them up with two Hornby BR 6 wheelers to see how they run with them too. Aside from them definitely not liking out of alignment track, mainly due to an uneven bit of floor in the hall we use, they ran well. 

 

Nathan...