Speeding ticket heads up

[Paul80]

Hi all

 

Just a heads up especially for all you southerners attending the  Warly show at the NEC this year.

 

I have just attended a naughty boy course after picking up a ticket on my way to TINGS this year for doing 71 in a 70 section on the M1

 

It turned out that of the 25 people on the course that day about 25% had tickets issued By Northampton police for doing 1 mph over the limit on the M1.

 

The instructors also confirmed that they have seen a huge rise in the number of participants ticketed for being just 1mph over the limit in many areas

 

So if going up the M1 for the NEC watch out along the Notinghamshire section and if others are following the trend watchout, especially on any of the Smart motorways which can catch you out with their constant speed changes.

 

Like I said just a heads up.

 

Paul

[royaloak]

Definitely not a money making scheme, I mean just think of all those crashes caused by individuals going a massive 1mph over the posted limit on motorways, it is a huge 1.42% over the limit.

 

Personally I would ask for a day in Court.

[tigerburnie]

You are allowed to go 10 percent over the limit round here, they tell you that on the speed awareness course, my mate went, I got a ticket and a £60 fine instead...……………………..

[polybear]

I *think* many forces allow 10% plus 3mph before they get interested (some forces won't publish their rules) but the letter of the law is that 1mph over the limit is a nick, should they deem to do so......

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

Hi all

 

I have just attended a naughty boy course after picking up a ticket on my way to TINGS this year for doing 71 in a 70 section on the M1

 

Paul

And what speed did your speedo read?

Probably at least 75, likely nearer 80.

[SRman]

Newer cars seem to all over-read by 3 to 5 kph (here in Australia), but older cars could vary considerably more. Laws here required speedos to be accurate to within 10%, which was alright for my ancient 1973 Ford (recently sold) - I had to be extra careful with that one though, because it under-read by 10%. That was old technology with a cable drive from the gearbox to the speedo. The gearing could be altered (my mechanic did try!) but the accuracy was always a bit suspect. While I did make allowance for the error when driving, I could never, ever be 100% sure of my exact speed.

My 2010 Mitsubishi Lancer (only recently traded in) had a constant 4 to 5 kph error all the way up the range. When asked to fix that, the dealers just said it can't be altered.

For my current car, a Honda CR-V, I haven't had it long enough to work out the speedo error, if any. It goes in to the dealers next week for its one-month first check-up.

It seems to me that Northampton police booking you for 1 mph over is extremely mean, and if someone wanted to challenge it in court, could probably argue that it is illegal on the grounds that a certain amount of speedometer error is permitted in the vehicle design rules (although I am not entirely familiar with the British laws on this).

Edited November 17, 2019 by SRman

[Gordon A]

A friend who is a magistrate said that the 10% leeway no longer applies.

Gordon A

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, tigerburnie said:

You are allowed to go 10 percent over the limit round here, they tell you that on the speed awareness course, my mate went, I got a ticket and a £60 fine instead...……………………..

 

1 hour ago, polybear said:

I *think* many forces allow 10% plus 3mph before they get interested (some forces won't publish their rules) but the letter of the law is that 1mph over the limit is a nick, should they deem to do so......

 

50 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

A friend who is a magistrate said that the 10% leeway no longer applies.

Gordon A

 

 

If you actually read the legislation you will find that anything above 70mph miles an hour is an offence. No ifs, no buts and no tolerances are quoted - 71mph means you have broken the law and the fact that most Police forces have historically not chosen to pursue offenders means nothing.

 

The often quoted 10% + 2mph leeway is in fact nothing more than recommendation issued by the Asociation of Chiefs Police Officers to minimise work load - and IT IS NOT A DEFENCE IN LAW.

 

Consequently the police / CPS are quite within their rights to prosecute (or make drivers attend speed awareness courses) if they go even 1mph over the 70mph limit - and if it ends up in court the judge / magistrate will throw out any defence based on the ACPO advice as that is not mentioned anywhere in the legislation which governs speeding offences.

Edited November 17, 2019 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

58 minutes ago, SRman said:

Newer cars seem to all over-read by 3 to 5 kph (here in Australia), but older cars could vary considerably more. Laws here required speedos to be accurate to within 10%, which was alright for my ancient 1973 Ford (recently sold) - I had to be extra careful with that one though, because it under-read by 10%. That was old technology with a cable drive from the gearbox to the speedo. The gearing could be altered (my mechanic did try!) but the accuracy was always a bit suspect. While I did make allowance for the error when driving, I could never, ever be 100% sure of my exact speed.

My 2010 Mitsubishi Lancer (only recently traded in) had a constant 4 to 5 kph error all the way up the range. When asked to fix that, the dealers just said it can't be altered.

For my current car, a Honda CR-V, I haven't had it long enough to work out the speedo error, if any. It goes in to the dealers next week for its one-month first check-up.

It seems to me that Northampton police booking you for 1 mph over is extremely mean, and if someone wanted to challenge it in court, could probably argue that it is illegal on the grounds that a certain amount of speedometer error is permitted in the vehicle design rules (although I am not entirely familiar with the British laws on this).

 

It is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT that the spedo fitted to ALL motor vehicles used on public roads in the UK MUST NEVER show less than the actual speed, and must never show more than 110% of actual speed + 6.25mph.

 

This is because like all measuring devices, a speedometer is only accurate to a certain degree - it will have a margin of error either way.

 

What that means is if you know your speedometer has a +/- 5% tolerance, then you actually have to set it so that it will always overestimate your speed by 5%

 

This is because in UK law, SPEED LIMITS ARE ABSOLUTE - the legislation doesn’t say 30mph +/- 5% for roads with a system of street lighting for example.

 

If your spedo could under read by 5% then it could lead to a driver doing 31.5mph even though it said 30mph and thus cause the driver brake the law without knowing it.

 

So if your true speed is 40mph, your speedo could legally be reading up to 50.25mph but never less than 40mph.

 

This is why Sat-Navs give high speed readings than your spedo, the law does not recognise Sat-Navs as a valid form of speedometer for motor vehicles. Thus the Sat-Nav will not be made to deliberately under read and gives a more accurate readout than your vehicles dashboard.

 

So if you don’t want to get a speeding fine make sure you go by what your car dash says and you will not end up going 1mph over the limit and prosecuted.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by phil-b259

[kevinlms]

53 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Here come the righteous Brothers!

Have you spotted the OP's name? Just might be a clue, as to normal driving speed on the motorway! But probably coincidence, although I have read here of many who set their cruise control to 80.

 

Certainly the police in Australia, would be very keen to stop you if caught doing 16kmh over the speed limit (70 mph to 80 mph difference is 16kmh).

 

16 kmh puts you into the 2nd range of speeding and it's $330 and 3 points.

[jcm@gwr]

All I'm going to add to this, one of the complaints by the Police is

that they don't get the co-operation or respect from the public

that they think they should, I wonder why!

[Chris M]

The leeway that has traditionally been allowed does appear to be slowly disappearing. Its probably best to assume it doesn't exist. I always stick to 70 (well 73 on the speedo which is 70 on my current car) motorways with overhead cameras or those smart motorways where they have average speed cameras. I am told Stafford area don't give any leeway and also most of Wales. You can often get an indication of how things are in an area by the behaviour of other drivers. If everyone else is doing around 80 on the speedo its probably OK but if you suddenly find lots of cars are doing 70 it could well be because the police are hot in that area. My expectation is that, if the planned legislation requiring new cars to not be able to exceed the speed limit comes in then all leeway will also go. Otherwise why would anyone buy a new car?

 

Don't assume that all speedos over estimate speed. Nearly all do but I had one car which when the speedo showed 120 kph I was doing exactly 2 kilometres in 1 minute.  How do I know? Those French motorways are very long and you have to find ways to alleviate the boredom. In the days before satnavs that is how I checked the accuracy of my speedo.

[polybear]

In my 3-year old car there are two speedos - analogue and digital; the digital one is used to display the speed at which the cruise control is set.  Set the cruise at 70 and as soon as the car is doing that speed the "70" disappears from the display and it reverts back to other information (temperature, mpg or whatever).  Only the analogue speedo is reading 71.....

Decisions, decisions....

 

edit:  Now is foresee a rise in accidents cos' drivers are forever checking their speedos for being 1mph over the limit, instead of looking at the road.

Edited November 17, 2019 by polybear

[jjb1970]

One reason most legal authorities provide some flexibility around limit values is the whole minefield around metrology and instrumentation. There is no flexibility in the legal requirements as they are absolute, unfortunately in test and measurement all sorts of unfortunate issues such arise which means that strict interpretation of some of these limit values is problematic. Which makes it somewhat ironic that some more accurate alternatives to car speedometers have no legal standing for indicating speed. 

I have no sympathy for speeding and think the old guidance was too generous. I also hope that if the authorities have time to prosecute people going 1mph over the limit that those areas have no other crime to worry about. 

[jonny777]

Big brother is watching you, and now it would seem that he needs as much of your money as possible. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

The upshot of all this speed regularity is that if all cars etc do exactly 70 and all lorries etc do exactly 56 all you will achieve is gridlock.

 

Mike.

[gwrrob]

At least those doing 75mph plus are not clogging up the system on these speed awareness money making courses.

[steve1]

Not having a clue as to whether my Pug's speedo is even 99% accurate, it would appear that I need to be a bit more circumspect in my driving.

 

steve

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

How can you tell whether your speedo is accurate or not, it is not part of the MOT test, and I'm not aware of any freely accessible facilities for testing it.

So, why can't you state in your defence that you were travelling at the correct speed according to all the information that is required to be provided by HM government (construction and use etc) and that as far as you could be reasonably aware you weren't exceeding the speed limit. The police don't have a photograph of your speedometer read out at the time of the offence to prove anything, nor do you have the level of speed measuring equipment that they have to nick you.

Maybe the police should be using equipment with a random 10% plus 3 mph leeway with which to check speeding motorists?

 

Mike.

[melmerby]

You can bet your life that all those wingeing about being done for 1mph over the limit were more than that.

The cops will have covered their asses from smart alec lawyers who would argue equipment error in a court case.

Edited November 17, 2019 by melmerby

[Kingzance]

Of course this is based upon revenue! You hardly ever see a police car on the roads (despite the various TV programmes) as the vehicles are expensive to man and operate whereas a camera system with automatic reporting has negligible operating costs and the revenue can be used to add more cameras. Ultimately, any minor transgression is going to lead to a ban and the vehicle being seized. There are already too many drivers on the roads who ignore the Highway Code in untaxed, untested vehicles driving whilst uninsured or even banned. 
Police no longer attend burglaries except at their convenience, they don't answer when called on the non-emergency number, they only patrol in twos and Chief Constables target the more law abiding simply because they can elevate their statistics more easily. Cuts in policing budgets directly correlate to cuts in the lower echelons (the police you actually might see and who are exposed to most risk and have to suffer the most) whilst the senior officers go on more management courses, form more lobbying bodies and generally consume proportionally more of the budget - and I haven't started on politically motivated Police and Crime Commissioners yet! 

[jjb1970]

I saw a serious incident outside Charing Cross Police station the other night and getting the Police to come outside and do something about an assault on their own doorstep was painful and took ages (initially a civilian support worker came out and was too busy taking photos of a damaged car hit by a scooter because the rider had been pushed off to notice the rider was being assaulted). A near neighbour was burgled a couple of weeks ago and they got the usual offer of counselling, a crime number and were told to sort it out with their insurance. A few of our neighbours are Police officers and they hold the system they work within with utter contempt. Hence why I hope any crack down on drivers doing 1mph over the limit has been made possible by an outbreak of zero crime in the area. 

[Paul80]

Apparently the 10% error allowed is no longer applied as it was introduce to cover older cars who's Speedos were cable operated and could be inaccurate in either direction, now all Speedos are electronic and are not allowed to under report your speed so if it's says 70 you are doing 70 or just under.

 

Some of you seem to have got the wrong end of my post, I was not complaining I got a ticket for going 1mph over the limit, I was just giving a heads up some areas are clamping down. 

 

Obviously some snowflakes don't need advice.

[Kingzance]

4 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Apparently the 10% error allowed is no longer applied as it was introduce to cover older cars who's Speedos were cable operated and could be inaccurate in either direction, now all Speedos are electronic and are not allowed to under report your speed so if it's says 70 you are doing 70 or just under.

 

Some of you seem to have got the wrong end of my post, I was not complaining I got a ticket for going 1mph over the limit, I was just giving a heads up some areas are clamping down. 

 

Obviously some snowflakes don't need advice.

For many years, Northamptonshire was in the vanguard of speed cameras. On a county border sign near where I lived, some wag had rightly changed the welcome message from "Rose of the Shires" to  "Home of the Speed Camera". There are also many vehicles still on the road that have mechanical speedometers but of course the zealous civilians sending out these penalties would not know that. Seeing the plethora of vehicles - both private and commercial - registered elsewhere in the EU on UK roads, I wonder how penalties for infringements are exacted upon them?

And no, I am not a snowflake, having held a full licence for well over 50 years and owning both a car and a motorcycle. Over that time, I have attended two speed awareness course (both in Northamptonshire and the last a decade ago) and paid one penalty fine with three points (Thames Valley, thirty years).

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

How can you tell whether your speedo is accurate or not, it is not part of the MOT test, and I'm not aware of any freely accessible facilities for testing it.

So, why can't you state in your defence that you were travelling at the correct speed according to all the information that is required to be provided by HM government (construction and use etc) and that as far as you could be reasonably aware you weren't exceeding the speed limit. The police don't have a photograph of your speedometer read out at the time of the offence to prove anything, nor do you have the level of speed measuring equipment that they have to nick you.

 

 

See what I said earlier about the law!

 

Motor manufacturers / retailers WILL NOT sell cars which have the ability to incriminate users because of the legal ramifications - ALL spedos will under read to a grater or lesser extent.

 

Consequently there is NO NEED for the police to prove what your spedo is saying - if its its under reading then the car shouldn't be used on public roads and you are liable for having an unroadworthy vehicle.

 

In the situation where you believe a spedo to be faulty and thus causing you to receive a speeding fine then you could of course commission independent tests - which may prove an actual defect with the spedo, in which case the motor vehicle seller / manufacturer would face prosecution for supplying an unroadworthy vehicle. If however the report comes back showing the spedo meets the requirements of UK law then you will have wasted money and ended up with a more significant penalty from the court system.

Edited November 17, 2019 by phil-b259