Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[APT-P]

I took a little bit of video of the Project-tilt full length APT-P running at Making Tracks II on Saturday -

 

 

 

With detailing from Cheshire Lines and weathering by Neville Grove

Edited September 8, 2022 by APT-P

[Mr_Tilt]

What's 'Project-Tilt' then?

[HExpressD]

15 minutes ago, Mr_Tilt said:

What's 'Project-Tilt' then?

This.

 

http://www.apt-p.com/Project-tilt.htm

 

Looks pretty damn impressive I must say

[Mr_Tilt]

What a WONDERFUL idea, well done Mr. Gray & Son!

 

I especially like that piece of track as I was in the rear cab of the P-Train on the first run on Dec 7th 1981 going down the Lune Valley, and a very impressive ride it was too. 🙂

 

Of course a model of PoP-Train would work just as well, we did numerous runs up and down there back in the early 70s. And I spent much of my time on the outside of the control cabins too. 🙂

[RedgateModels]

Hi, could someone with an early pan risk taking it off their NDM and taking a pic of the underside? - spares are becoming available and I'm wondering if I could modify one to fit my 80's version

 

cheers

[rembrow]

6 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Hi, could someone with an early pan risk taking it off their NDM and taking a pic of the underside? - spares are becoming available and I'm wondering if I could modify one to fit my 80's version

 

cheers

Hope this helps, have attached photo of the underside of the early pan, have taken it off as have ordered a high speed spare, thanks for the heads up. The 4 corner prongs all have locating points that slot into holes in the tops of the insulators. The measurements between the corner locating points are:

 

Front to back 14.5 mm

Side to side  16.5 mm

[RedgateModels]

2 hours ago, rembrow said:

Hope this helps, have attached photo of the underside of the early pan, have taken it off as have ordered a high speed spare, thanks for the heads up. The 4 corner prongs all have locating points that slot into holes in the tops of the insulators. The measurements between the corner locating points are:

 

Front to back 14.5 mm

Side to side  16.5 mm

Thanks, looks like a challenge to adapt to say the least

 

 

 

 

 

 

might have a go anyway ……….

Edited September 27, 2022 by RedgateModels

[rembrow]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

Thanks, looks like a challenge to adapt to say the least 

If you want to have my old early style pan, I'm happy to send it for you to play with, once I've received the replacement from New Modellers. If you would like it, please pm me your address, no charge.

 

[RedgateModels]

Just now, rembrow said:

If you want to have my old early style pan, I'm happy to send it for you to play with, once I've received the replacement from New Modellers. If you would like it, please pm me your address, no charge.

 

that’s very good of you, PM sent 😁

[Bloodnok]

On 27/09/2022 at 10:18, RedgateModels said:

... spares are becoming available ...

Has anyone worked out what the kit of parts required to OEM convert the dummy power car to a full power car is yet, and if they are all available? I'm assuming two complete bogies with drivetrains, two driveshafts, a motor and a wiring harness would all be required (and seem available), but what about motor mounts and other chassis parts?

[RedgateModels]

2 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

Has anyone worked out what the kit of parts required to OEM convert the dummy power car to a full power car is yet, and if they are all available? I'm assuming two complete bogies with drivetrains, two driveshafts, a motor and a wiring harness would all be required (and seem available), but what about motor mounts and other chassis parts?

 

New Modellers are almost there, but not quite

https://www.romancart.com/search.asp?searchterm=apt&storeid=46708&offset=0

 

Motor cradle and bogie supports plus the main weight unit which is not listed on the service sheet are not available for starters

[WestRail642fan]

im still hoping to replace the stock panto with a Bachmann 90 one, also holding out on spare NDM parts so i can get both powered

[Ducking Giraffe]

Thanks for that guys, I didn't know spares were available so have stocked up on two high speed pantographs - for £4 each they're an absolute snip and can only get more expensive. Tried costing a NDM moter upgrade and so far its pretty cheap and woudl be worthwhile - but as you say not all the bits are available. 

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Ducking Giraffe said:

Thanks for that guys, I didn't know spares were available so have stocked up on two high speed pantographs - for £4 each they're an absolute snip and can only get more expensive. Tried costing a NDM moter upgrade and so far its pretty cheap and woudl be worthwhile - but as you say not all the bits are available. 

 

I haven't opened up the non-powered NDM yet to see whats missing compared to the powered one in the diagram. Feeling the weight in it, I'd be surprised if any weight components were missing.

[Pete the Elaner]

17 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

im still hoping to replace the stock panto with a Bachmann 90 one, also holding out on spare NDM parts so i can get both powered

 

The Bachmann one certainly looks a lot nicer & it actually raises.

Will it physically fit though? The tilt profile gives the APT a narrow roof, so the mount points are different.

I don't know if Bachmann plan to sell their BW pan as a spare but Gaugemaster lists the Heljan one.

It would be nice to get one which does look decent when running by the time I get the wires up on my layout. I have a long way to go before I get to that stage though.

[Marcyg]

On 27/09/2022 at 17:37, RedgateModels said:

Thanks, looks like a challenge to adapt to say the least

 

 

 

 

 

 

might have a go anyway ……….

I've taken my early pantograph off mine and fitted the BW version.  Very simple operation 

[APT Fan]

Hi,

 

Has anyone successfully fitted a Train-O-Matic decoder to the driving coaches as believe space is quite tight?

 

Its described as - Train-O-Matic Mini 9 wires + 8 pin NEM 652 (W8P)

 

Thanks

[Bloodnok]

On 13/10/2022 at 10:10, APT Fan said:

Hi,

 

Has anyone successfully fitted a Train-O-Matic decoder to the driving coaches as believe space is quite tight?

 

Its described as - Train-O-Matic Mini 9 wires + 8 pin NEM 652 (W8P)

 

Thanks

 

I have Train-O-Matic Lokommander II (W8P) decoders in my DTS cars. They are retired normal decoders, not dedicated function decoders. I don't recall any problems fitting them, install went smoothly.

The problem vehicle was the NDM (motor car), which I used a Zimo MX600R in. If fitted as intended this caused problems with the tilt not working properly. I had to shove the decoder up the side of the model so it would sit on top of the chassis with the wires flat up the side of the chassis to avoid any catching/rubbing as the body tilted around the chassis block.

... And it still doesn't actually work as it can't climb a hill to save it's life. I either need to ballast it, re-work the rest of the train to reduce rolling resistance, or motorise the other NDM.

[APT Fan]

9 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

 

I have Train-O-Matic Lokommander II (W8P) decoders in my DTS cars. They are retired normal decoders, not dedicated function decoders. I don't recall any problems fitting them, install went smoothly.

The problem vehicle was the NDM (motor car), which I used a Zimo MX600R in. If fitted as intended this caused problems with the tilt not working properly. I had to shove the decoder up the side of the model so it would sit on top of the chassis with the wires flat up the side of the chassis to avoid any catching/rubbing as the body tilted around the chassis block.

... And it still doesn't actually work as it can't climb a hill to save it's life. I either need to ballast it, re-work the rest of the train to reduce rolling resistance, or motorise the other NDM.

 

Thanks,

I'll be fitting sound to the NDM and I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'll need to remove the 8 pin socket from the floor and move it inside the body. As I'm opening it up anyway, it servers no purpose being mounted in the floor, they've done that to provide easy access via the opening panel. As you've said fitting a decoder as intended interferes with the tilt anyway, so they've definitely dropped a clanger with this.

 

I'm currently fitting out a Hornby Class 87 with sound and it's a complete nightmare, even without sound people are struggling to fit standard controllers due to the lake of clearance. It looks like anything larger than a micro controller, which I have is likely to be a problem. I also have the smallest speaker available but that's going to be touch and go due to the lack of space provisioning.

 

The Hornby Class 56 was the same and I don't quite understand the thinking at Hornby when it comes to DCC provisioning in the year of 2022, they are light years behind Bachmann in this regard. However now that I have the APT, hopefully I won't need to buy anymore Hornby models as other manufacturers offer most of the items I'm interested in. I haven't been particularly impressed with the build quality of this item. One of the driving cars had noticeable black marks around the lights, I thought it was a mis-spray but on closer inspection is was the residue from masking tape! Also some of the ridges on the coaches haven't been moulded properly but its obviously passed quality inspection before being sent to the paint shop. Anyway its an APT and is only available from this manufacturer so it is a choice we make and will have to live with the niggles.  

[Torbay Express]

On 15/10/2022 at 10:41, APT Fan said:

its obviously passed quality inspection before being sent to the paint shop. Anyway its an APT and is only available from this manufacturer so it is a choice we make and will have to live with the niggles.  

So much optimism, compared to many of the issues highlighted by Rmwebers.... 

[boxbrownie]

On 15/10/2022 at 10:41, APT Fan said:

 

Thanks,

I'll be fitting sound to the NDM and I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'll need to remove the 8 pin socket from the floor and move it inside the body. As I'm opening it up anyway, it servers no purpose being mounted in the floor, they've done that to provide easy access via the opening panel. As you've said fitting a decoder as intended interferes with the tilt anyway, so they've definitely dropped a clanger with this.

 

I'm currently fitting out a Hornby Class 87 with sound and it's a complete nightmare, even without sound people are struggling to fit standard controllers due to the lake of clearance. It looks like anything larger than a micro controller, which I have is likely to be a problem. I also have the smallest speaker available but that's going to be touch and go due to the lack of space provisioning.

 

The Hornby Class 56 was the same and I don't quite understand the thinking at Hornby when it comes to DCC provisioning in the year of 2022, they are light years behind Bachmann in this regard. However now that I have the APT, hopefully I won't need to buy anymore Hornby models as other manufacturers offer most of the items I'm interested in. I haven't been particularly impressed with the build quality of this item. One of the driving cars had noticeable black marks around the lights, I thought it was a mis-spray but on closer inspection is was the residue from masking tape! Also some of the ridges on the coaches haven't been moulded properly but its obviously passed quality inspection before being sent to the paint shop. Anyway its an APT and is only available from this manufacturer so it is a choice we make and will have to live with the niggles.  

A decoder can be fitted without fouling the tilt movement

The 87 is very tight but a Zimo micro sound decoder will fit (just) and a better speaker can be fitted under the board, oh yes also managed to fit an arcing chip for the Panto.

But your correct about Hornby, they really don’t think much about DCC fitment.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 15/10/2022 at 10:41, APT Fan said:

 

Thanks,

I'll be fitting sound to the NDM and I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'll need to remove the 8 pin socket from the floor and move it inside the body. As I'm opening it up anyway, it servers no purpose being mounted in the floor, they've done that to provide easy access via the opening panel. As you've said fitting a decoder as intended interferes with the tilt anyway, so they've definitely dropped a clanger with this.

 

I'm currently fitting out a Hornby Class 87 with sound and it's a complete nightmare, even without sound people are struggling to fit standard controllers due to the lake of clearance. It looks like anything larger than a micro controller, which I have is likely to be a problem. I also have the smallest speaker available but that's going to be touch and go due to the lack of space provisioning.

 

The Hornby Class 56 was the same and I don't quite understand the thinking at Hornby when it comes to DCC provisioning in the year of 2022, they are light years behind Bachmann in this regard. However now that I have the APT, hopefully I won't need to buy anymore Hornby models as other manufacturers offer most of the items I'm interested in. I haven't been particularly impressed with the build quality of this item. One of the driving cars had noticeable black marks around the lights, I thought it was a mis-spray but on closer inspection is was the residue from masking tape! Also some of the ridges on the coaches haven't been moulded properly but its obviously passed quality inspection before being sent to the paint shop. Anyway its an APT and is only available from this manufacturer so it is a choice we make and will have to live with the niggles.  

 

It is just about possible to either feed the decoder through to the top of the chassis, or feed the plug through to the bottom. I cannot remember which way around I did it. I have sound in both of my NDMs too & never had to cut anything away to fit the speakers.

 

The 87 is poorly designed for DCC & especially sound. There is a designated place under the PCB for a speaker but unless you can get one which is VERY flat, it would foul the cardan shaft.

This is a complete contrast to Bachmann's 90 which is pre-fitted with a speaker & has a removable roof section under which a 21 pin decoder fits nicely. It also has a pantograph which is not only metal & sprung but raises remotely.

I accept the 90 is a year newer but the APT is newer still & a step backwards from the 90.

[letterspider]

I was unhappy with my model as the whole set is let down by the power car. In the end I reluctantly returned the 11 car set I put together for a refund. Reading the forums there appears that there have been a few returned for similar reasons.

As it has to push and pull and tilt, all at the same time, the power car really has to work perfectly. I feel that Hornby have made compromises which they might now regret when sets are being returned. My hope is they will try to fix these issues on the next batch....

 

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

 

The 87 is poorly designed for DCC & especially sound. There is a designated place under the PCB for a speaker but unless you can get one which is VERY flat, it would foul the cardan shaft.

This is a complete contrast to Bachmann's 90 which is pre-fitted with a speaker & has a removable roof section under which a 21 pin decoder fits nicely. It also has a pantograph which is not only metal & sprung but raises remotely.

I accept the 90 is a year newer but the APT is newer still & a step backwards from the 90.

This is the speaker I used, it’s thin enough but it needs a small “slice” off one end (and then the end sealed again of course) or maybe file the chassis sides down, but I preferred to cut the speaker. It sounds much better than the standard round speaker designed for the space.

 

https://www.roads-and-rails.co.uk/collections/8-ohm-speakers/products/30x17x4-thin-bass-enhanced-dcc-sound-speaker-8-ohm

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by boxbrownie

[APT Fan]

18 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

The 87 is very tight but a Zimo micro sound decoder will fit (just) and a better speaker can be fitted under the board, oh yes also managed to fit an arcing chip for the Panto.

But your correct about Hornby, they really don’t think much about DCC fitment.

 

Just a comment on that speaker - Does it not foul the PCB as it doesn't look like it is sitting flush within the designated cutout area in the chassis and seems to be sitting proud? Even if the picture is deceiving me, there are surface mounted components on the underside of the PCB which are also likely to foul it also.

 

My Loksound v5 micro came pre-wired with a Base enhanced speaker 23x13x6mm as recommended for the Hornby. I was advised to install the speaker on the underside of the PCB at the other end, however I found that it would also be fouled at that end by the underside of the 8 pin connector joints. Here's an explanation of my approach with illustrations:-

 

Firstly, these are the surface mounted components which 'intrude' into the 'space'.

 

So I fitted the speaker sideways and fixed it to the bottom of the chassis with double sided pads and then pinned it at the top with another couple of pads. Side fixing it would make it sit prouder and might risk it fouling the drive shaft. The fixings are strong and it isn't going anywhere!

 

You can see at the other end how the 8 pin socket joints would 'just' foul an under PCB speaker installation and won't quite fit between the pins and the drive shaft ball joint. Note the extention to the orange wire to ease access due to Hornby not making any allowances and fitting very short wires. 

 

So then we come to the actual decoder fitting and whilst the Loksound V5 micro is a nice neat and small decoder it is actually quite deep due to the use of quite a bulky connector for the ribbon cable. I couldn't find anywhere to place it on the top side of the PCB without it interfering with the roof and it felt like a very tight squeeze, so I didn't want to force it. So again using the trusty old double sided pads, this was fitted to the underside of the PCB at the 8 pin socket end.

 

Now, although I have great faith in double sided sicky pads and they usually provide very strong and durable fixings I am aware that occasionally gravity can get the better of them. I noted that this might mean if the decoder became unattached it may fall into the drive shaft. So I made a cowling out of plasticard to protect the shaft. This was measured to size and formed into a U shape, an interference fit, so just clips into place. The more observant of you will have spotted that it has actually been made out of an old Blueyonder TV smart card rather than actual Plasticard.