Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[RedgateModels]

33 minutes ago, BR(S) said:

 

http://redgatemodels.co.uk/?page_id=457

 

And the classifieds on here 😉

[piranha240]

What is the difference on the improved cab windows on the latest release?.

[AMac]

On 01/01/2024 at 17:13, AMac said:

It's a known fault - the big stay alive capacitors that Hornby installed in their APT trailer cars just don't work. I'm not sure why and haven't looked into it yet. The new trailer cars have much smaller capacitors hidden out of view and do work. It's good that Hornby have corrected the problem, but not great for those of us who have already bought the 2020/21 release versions.

 

Hornby have confirmed to me that while spare parts are available for the 2021 spec models, no spares were made the 2023 spec (as mentioned a bit earlier in this thread).  No point getting the 2021 spec spares for the lighting board as all the capacitors don't work.

 

I'll follow up with Hornby next week and see if there is any technical help they can provide and maybe even supply the capacitors that do work (I have to try!). It may be more than just the capacitor that is required - I'm very rusty with my electrical theory and just getting back into modelling but I suspect the lighting PCB will have other components such as resistors that will need to be changed or added.

I did follow up with Hornby and they got back to me a couple of weeks ago. They confirmed that all they did was to replace the capacitor. To quote them;

 

"Development have informed me that the only difference is the capacitors, everything else remains the same including how the capacitor attaches to the board, so removing this would be a case of removing the capacitor and replacing it with an alternative."

I queried the capacitor spec and last week they replied with;

 

"Our electronics team have confirmed that the capacitor is a Supercapacitor, 0.33F and 5.5V."

 

I'm not sure if they've got other components already in the PCB that can deal with the higher track voltage compared to the super capacitor 5.5V. I'll open up a coach and have a look. In the meantime - has anyone else had a look at this?

[RedgateModels]

3 minutes ago, AMac said:

 

"Our electronics team have confirmed that the capacitor is a Supercapacitor, 0.33F and 5.5V."

 

 

Well that would suggest why the 2020 release lighting flickers. If they used a smallish electrolytic capacitor instead of a supercap the capacitance and therefore storage would be an order of magnitude less at least.

[letterspider]

Thank you for following up - some quick research revealed this

 

(link) Supercap

at £1.83 a shot, probably not the best option out there but for me the price is right and I don't have to work with SMT components

They are even cheaper on AliExpress but the shipping takes longer. eg

(link) Supercap

Edited January 22 by letterspider

[AMac]

23 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Well that would suggest why the 2020 release lighting flickers. If they used a smallish electrolytic capacitor instead of a supercap the capacitance and therefore storage would be an order of magnitude less at least.

I think they used a 1000 µF 25 V electrolytic capacitor in the 2020 release. Still to get around to having a look myself. I'll probably end up getting a couple of the new coaches. When I do, I'll have a look at that.

Edited January 23 by AMac
Clarify which version the cap was installed

[AMac]

On 20/03/2022 at 23:56, JSpencer said:

"Well, following a capacitor blowing, causing a hole to appear in the NDM roof just over a month ago, I can report a happy ending."  ...

 

"That said once bitten, twice shy... so, I replaced the caps with the RS ones AND glued (PVA) some aluminum foil under the roofs where the capacitors sit. I find ally foil stops heat from a passing blow torch from touching paint, plastic etc when soldering pipework. This would protect the plastic body from any burning cap." ...

 

"Here are some pics:

TWO chassis with bodies removed, note the brown Hornby caps :

 

 

 

The new capacitor (blue blob - the originals will be posted to Ukraine to maybe destroy some Russian tanks!!):

 

 

 

Hi JSpenser. Thanks for the info on the NDM caps. Time for a couple of dumb questions. What is the purpose of these caps and are they needed for DCC operation? What size are they - a few micro F at 25V?  I take it you suspected the originals had a higher tolerances in the specs?

 

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, AMac said:

Hi JSpenser. Thanks for the info on the NDM caps. Time for a couple of dumb questions. What is the purpose of these caps and are they needed for DCC operation? What size are they - a few micro F at 25V?  I take it you suspected the originals had a higher tolerances in the specs?

 

 

They are motor interference surpressor caps. They can be removed for DCC. I forget the power of the replacements but they were mentioned in a post before mine.

 

Edit: choice of capacitors from page 118:

Examples of suitable caps at 0.1µF, 100V

(a) TDK FG28X7S2A104KRT00

(b) VISHAY K104K15X7RH53H5G

(c) TDK FA14X7R2A104KNU00

(d)  TDK FA16X8R2A104KNU06

(e) MURATA RDER72A104K1P1H03B

Edited January 23 by JSpencer

[AMac]

19 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

They are motor interference surpressor caps. They can be removed for DCC. I forget the power of the replacements but they were mentioned in a post before mine.

 

I wondered about that as I've removed the suppressor caps from my old ringfield motor locos I chipped. Many thanks for the  explanation.

[AMac]

On 23/01/2024 at 05:35, letterspider said:

Thank you for following up - some quick research revealed this

 

(link) Supercap

at £1.83 a shot, probably not the best option out there but for me the price is right and I don't have to work with SMT components

They are even cheaper on AliExpress but the shipping takes longer. eg

(link) Supercap

Thanks for looking into suppliers etc for the super caps. 

[AMac]

On 02/01/2024 at 23:14, 25kV said:

Thanks AMac!  :)   It was a labour of love madness, started when I got the idea to make a model of the unit I rode on in 1984.  I didn't have any vehicle numbers (aside from the driving cars and a recollection that one of the power cars was the named one) so set about trying to figure it out.  And once I was down the rabbit hole ... 

(You should definitely buy another set!  😉 )

HI 25kV. Madness has prevailed - 2nd set duly ordered 🤪. Just waiting for it to be shipped out.

 

The plan is to create a couple of trains - Mainly 370006 with PC 49003 and 370002 (with 49002?), then another one with 370007 (PC49001) + 370001> something like that anyway. Getting the right 2 car packs will mean minimising the renumbering. I'll check back to your page.  Also means I could run a full 14 car formation with 37006 & 370007. That's the theory anyway.

 

The bottom line is that it's all your fault that I've bought a second set!

[25kV]

7 hours ago, AMac said:

HI 25kV. Madness has prevailed - 2nd set duly ordered 🤪. Just waiting for it to be shipped out.

 

The plan is to create a couple of trains - Mainly 370006 with PC 49003 and 370002 (with 49002?), then another one with 370007 (PC49001) + 370001> something like that anyway. Getting the right 2 car packs will mean minimising the renumbering. I'll check back to your page.  Also means I could run a full 14 car formation with 37006 & 370007. That's the theory anyway.

 

The bottom line is that it's all your fault that I've bought a second set!

I take full responsibility, but none of the financial implications thereof!  :) 

006+002 and 007+001 (both 6+PC+2 formations) were both active around 1981-1982.  006+001 (with 49003 and 49006) in the middle operated the first public service, and my suspicion is that 007+001 were the standby set.  The latter was kicking around in early 1982 for sure, with a single power car (currently unknown number).

006 and 007 ran together as a full length rake (6+2+6 and 6+1+6) in the summer of 1981.

Good luck!!  My 004+001 1980 set is almost done - update coming soon on my thread.

[AMac]

13 hours ago, 25kV said:

I take full responsibility, but none of the financial implications thereof!  :) 

006+002 and 007+001 (both 6+PC+2 formations) were both active around 1981-1982.  006+001 (with 49003 and 49006) in the middle operated the first public service, and my suspicion is that 007+001 were the standby set.  The latter was kicking around in early 1982 for sure, with a single power car (currently unknown number).

006 and 007 ran together as a full length rake (6+2+6 and 6+1+6) in the summer of 1981.

Good luck!!  My 004+001 1980 set is almost done - update coming soon on my thread.

Fair enough for not accepting financial liability - as long as I can blame someone else. In fact I might just make it a Valentine's Day present...

 

Thanks for the corrections on the 2nd PC and formations. I need to have a look at your site again.  81/82 is the main time window I'm trying to model so that's why I picked the 006/002 & 007/001 sets though I missed that they were 6+1+2 (instead of the 2 PC's).

 

I'm looking forward to your updates.

[E100]

So I purchased most of the old 2020 coaches at a major discount apart from the TF coaches. I got a 2022 set of these and have just opened them up to compare to try and resolve the capacitor issue.

 

Having now looked at both boards it's very clear they are radically different with the 2020 capacitor positioned towards the pickups and the 2022 capacitor is positioned away from the pickups. I've taken photos below. Note that the new capacitors are 0.22F and 5.5V vs 1000uF (0.001F) and 25V. I'm really not too experienced with electronics at this stage but willing to try and learn. I'm a little concerned that if I go with a straight swap of the new into the old that they could go bang. This is partially due to the the new supercapacitors being rated at 5.5V vs 25V. It's suggests that the track voltage goes through a resistor with the new but not with the old? But then again is that also a part of the electrical issue and that they should have been 5.5V all along? I note that the 2020 capacitor appears after R01 (SMD resistor? labelled 331).

 

Has anyone given the 2022 type capacitors suggested above or similar in the 2020 board? Either way hope the images below help.

 

2020 TS

 

2022 TF

[E100]

So I got the multimeter out and placed the old 2020 coach on the track with 12V DC voltage (about 12.8V or so - though I usually run DCC around 15V). I firstly checked I was on the right setting which being a complete novice took a bit of trial and error even with the manual and got a reading of 0.01V of my Alpha Meter. I've then put the two probes onto the two capacitor wires and got a reading of around 4.6-4.8V giving me fair confidence that the 5.5V super capacitors should work on the old board. 

 

I've therefore ordered a set of them to give them a try.

[AMac]

On 11/03/2024 at 07:03, E100 said:

Having now looked at both boards it's very clear they are radically different with the 2020 capacitor positioned towards the pickups and the 2022 capacitor is positioned away from the pickups. I've taken photos below. Note that the new capacitors are 0.22F and 5.5V vs 1000uF (0.001F) and 25V.

Hi E100, thanks for the posts - you're a step ahead of me. My 2023 7 car set arrived a couple of weeks ago but I haven't got around to opening them up so many thanks for the photos.

 

Even though Hornby said the light circuit boards were the same, I had a nagging suspicion that might not be the case. Like you, I'm not experienced with electronics (probably less so!). I was gong to have a good look at the boards and try and work may through the surface mounted components.

 

Thanks also for your notes on the multi meter readings. Good luck and I'll start thinking about delving in and replacing the 2020 version capacitors. 

 

On another note I had vague idea that the lights are brighter in the 2020 version - possibly un realistically bright. Has anyone compared this? I'll have a look myself this weekend.

[E100]

So I have just wired in the new super-capacitors and... ...works an absolute treat. They retain full brightness for a couple of minutes after charging for around 30 seconds before they slowly die away but there was still noticeable and acceptable light well after 5 minutes. There's no in rush issue either as it draws 0.02A initially and then 0.01A once charged.

[andyman7]

3 hours ago, E100 said:

So I have just wired in the new super-capacitors and... ...works an absolute treat. They retain full brightness for a couple of minutes after charging for around 30 seconds before they slowly die away but there was still noticeable and acceptable light well after 5 minutes. There's no in rush issue either as it draws 0.02A initially and then 0.01A once charged.

This is really useful to know. Did you just swap out the old and new capacitors noting your comment above that they are located in a different part of the lighting board on the original 2020 version? And do you have a link for where you sourced the new 0.22F / 5.5v capacitors?

[E100]

8 hours ago, andyman7 said:

This is really useful to know. Did you just swap out the old and new capacitors noting your comment above that they are located in a different part of the lighting board on the original 2020 version? And do you have a link for where you sourced the new 0.22F / 5.5v capacitors?

 

Yes, I just did a straight swap despite the different locations as I gained some confidence from the voltage measurements I took. I've also now left them on for a 2 hour stint and there was no ill effects.

 

I used these 0.33F 5.5V but I'd be confident any from RS would work provided they are 5.5V. 

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/supercapacitors/1845491?gb=s

 

I've messed up the second board (well Hornby did as there was a broken solder joint from the pick up to the board) in terms of the wires and just can't seem to get any solder to stick to the board around the pickup tab (despite flux) so I will attempt to solder direct to the bridge rectifier but waiting on some new wire as I want to go with a slightly thicker piece of wire that what Hornby have used. I've sorted the capacitor for this one though and that went on very easily.

[letterspider]

When replacing capacitors, I snip the legs off to about 2mm and solder to the snips left behind. This spares the tracks

[RedgateModels]

I've ordered 10 from China, I'm in no hurry for them 

[E100]

9 minutes ago, letterspider said:

When replacing capacitors, I snip the legs off to about 2mm and solder to the snips left behind. This spares the tracks

Yeah I did that for the capacitors. As you say, very easy.

 

This was the actual track power to the board using the holes at the end as one had become detached.

[zoomer1979]

Got some of the 0.22f capacitors to try on my first batch APT. But I'm not at all confident on which leg is positive on these ones. It's not like there is a big + on one leg. There are arrows. The ones on the second batch look to be the same as I have bought. Are they negative to the top, the way the legs are attached?

 

Neil.

[PaulCheffus]

2 hours ago, zoomer1979 said:

Got some of the 0.22f capacitors to try on my first batch APT. But I'm not at all confident on which leg is positive on these ones. It's not like there is a big + on one leg. There are arrows. The ones on the second batch look to be the same as I have bought. Are they negative to the top, the way the legs are attached?

 

Neil.

Hi

 

The arrows usually point to the negative connection.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[zoomer1979]

Hi all,

Successful installation of the first super capacitor. I got the 22f ,5.5v and it was fitted in place of the 45 gallon drum capacitor that Hornby supplied. Lost patience after 5 mins waiting on the lights dying off!

Have ordered the balance from China, so a wee while to wait. But between the pinpoint bearings, low friction pickups and some through wiring, I hope I now have an ultimate version of the APT-P.

Neil.