HS2

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The HS2 TBM tracker is today (26th Feb) showing that "Florence" has 20 metres left to go  ???????

 

Cecilia has 195 metres left.... possibly a couple of weeks before breakthrough?

 

 

Meanwhile, up in Brum, at the Bromford Tunnel, TBM "Mary Ann" is reported to have  completed 1,690 metres, with 3,910 metres left.

i.e. 30% of the total tunnel distance.

 

 

.

Someone's telling porkies....... Or has been ordered to tell them.  I'lmark my spreadsheet as Florence completed on the 19th

 

Jamie

 

 

Edited February 26 by jamie92208

[ess1uk]

Depot given go head by Bucks council

 

[GordonC]

3 hours ago, Stevebr said:

The journey times with only Phase 1 being completed have been a bit vague with claims (from the Department of Transport (DoT) and various Ministers) of 100 minutes from London to Manchester without any detail being available.  I have run several simulations using the "Schiehallion" simulation software to simulate journeys from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow as well as Birmingham to Manchester and Glasgow. In addition, the impact of potential speed increases on the existing West Coast Main Line above the existing 110 mph limit for non-tilt services are modelled. It will be seen from the table below that there are still significant improvements for services to Manchester and Liverpool as well as some improvements from London to Glasgow.  The famous 100-minute schedule oft quoted by the DoT from London to Manchester is possible with limited stops as shown in Table 2, but the saving should not be compared with a current train stopping more frequently.

There remain several key variables which may still influence these outcomes. One of the critical decisions revolves around Handsacre Junction where for the purposes of the simulation it has been assumed that the original proposal is implemented rather than the economy layout proposed when Phase 2a was accelerated (it seems a long time ago!).

For those who would like to see more of the dull detail a pdf is attached.

 

Table 1 Current and Projected Journey Times with Phase 1 Only

 

Table 2 Limited Stop Schedule to Manchester with limited stops and EPS

 

 

 

HS2 Journey TimesSJB_20240226_R02.pdf 2.23 MB · 1 download

 

6 mins less London to Glasgow and how much more will ticket prices be?

[Stevebr]

25 year payback @ 3% pa 10 trains per hour out of Euston etc etc. Too much!

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Someone's telling porkies....... Or has been ordered to tell them.  I'lmark my spreadsheet as Florence completed on the 19th

 

Jamie

 

 

Maybe they'll pile up some breeze blocks in front of the cutting head so they can miraculously collapse in front of some Govt. bigwig.😄

[jamie92208]

15 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Maybe they'll pile up some breeze blocks in front of the cutting head so they can miraculously collapse in front of some Govt. bigwig.😄

Like Henry the Green engine being bricked up in a tunnel. 

 

Jamie

[Arun Sharma]

3 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Depot given go head by Bucks council

 

This is very strange. The land was presumably acquired by an Act of Parliament for a specific purpose. Why on earth does some local council have any say at all in the process of what form the structure takes. They can surely have nothing to contribute. 

I understand that local and County Council arguments have added many millions to the cost of HS2. Many of which have been overturned by courts and only lawyers have got anything out of the process.

As a rather clever journalist has written, 'The tunnels through the Chilterns were extended after a vociferous local campaign. But tunnels cost about ten times as much as normal tracks; cuttings five times. A big part of HS2's budget has gone on making sure a small group of people in the south of England will never have to see or hear it. As a result, many more in the north won't either.'

Edited February 26 by Arun Sharma
clarity

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Arun Sharma said:

This is very strange. The land was presumably acquired by an Act of Parliament for a specific purpose. Why on earth does some local council have any say at all in the process of what form the structure takes. They can surely have nothing to contribute. 

I understand that local and County Council arguments have added many millions to the cost of HS2. Many of which have been overturned by courts and only lawyers have got anything out of the process.

As a rather clever journalist has written, 'The tunnels through the Chilterns were extended after a vociferous local campaign. But tunnels cost about ten times as much as normal tracks; cuttings five times. A big part of HS2's budget has gone on making sure a small group of people in the south of England will never have to see or hear it. As a result, many more in the north won't either.'

According to the article in the Economist local councils were required to be consulted over the design and appearance of structures as part of the negotiations to get the bill through parliament.  Buckinghamshire are apparently being rather obstructive.  Keith Hofmeister,in his latest video mentioned at least two things, a bridge and some spoil disposal, where no work was being done because of planning hold ups.  

 

Jamie

[Arun Sharma]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

According to the article in the Economist local councils were required to be consulted over the design and appearance of structures as part of the negotiations to get the bill through parliament.  Buckinghamshire are apparently being rather obstructive.  Keith Hofmeister,in his latest video mentioned at least two things, a bridge and some spoil disposal, where no work was being done because of planning hold ups.  

 

Jamie

I agree with you but that concession to local government has cost the country phase 2 of HS2. Firstly, I believe that concession was unnecessary and secondly, I am increasingly of the view that the Manchester, Totton and Leeds legs of HS2 should have been started first. 

[martin_wynne]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqjqgxyzjwo

 

 

Rail minister Huw Merriman said it was a "groundbreaking moment" 🙂

 

 

Edited February 27 by martin_wynne

[jamie92208]

6 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqjqgxyzjwo

 

 

Rail minister Huw Merriman said it was a "groundbreaking moment" 🙂

 

 

Finally they've made it public,  however the cynic in me suggests that the actual breakthrough was some days ago as they have had time to clean and possibly repaint the cutting head.  At least two of the eight photos show it dirty as you would expect the other six show it pretty clean. 

 

Despite this it is a magnificent achievement. 

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

16 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

I agree with you but that concession to local government has cost the country phase 2 of HS2. Firstly, I believe that concession was unnecessary and secondly, I am increasingly of the view that the Manchester, Totton and Leeds legs of HS2 should have been started first. 

Which still wouldn’t have addressed they key issues!

 

Look how many times do I have to point out that, like it or not they areas of the rail network that are the most contested and would unlock the greatest benifits to the network as a whole the bits between the Midlands and London.

 

Furthermore there would have been no chance of starting both the Leeds and the Manchester legs at the same time and what’s more given the political makeup of those areas the Government would have found it far easier to simply abandon the works half finished rather than complete them!

[jamie92208]

Though I agree with Aruns post I do see that the greatest opposition to the new line, and the major costs, were on the stretch between London and Handsacre.  At least that is being built. I believe that it was a Chiltern MP, quite high in Government,both then and now that got the bill on the statute book. 

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

HS2 have just posted a video. It looks as if they had painted the last bit of concrete to look like the TBM. 

 

Jamie

[melmerby]

Nice bit of fakery.

[Pendle Forest]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Which still wouldn’t have addressed they key issues!

 

Look how many times do I have to point out that, like it or not they areas of the rail network that are the most contested and would unlock the greatest benifits to the network as a whole the bits between the Midlands and London.

 

Furthermore there would have been no chance of starting both the Leeds and the Manchester legs at the same time and what’s more given the political makeup of those areas the Government would have found it far easier to simply abandon the works half finished rather than complete them!

There are 13 miles between Skipton and Colne that could go back in for around 200m.  That's double track and includes electrification from Skipton through to Preston.  This would give a fully electrified, relatively gradient flat, none-congested Northern Pennine link.  The track bed for the missing section is wholly owned by the local authorities and Network Rail.  Major earthworks are still in place and apart from rerouting the ring road at Colne onto a bridge over the tracks the route is unbroken. Thr route would give direct access from the North East to East and West Lancs, Inc Liverpool, without going through Manchester.  Connections at Burnley and Blackburn would make accessing both Manchester Stations a doddle. Yet.... nothing.  Despite the scheme being shovel ready, everyone agreeing it's a stupid not to do it, and hoardes of government ministers promising it would progress on the pipeline. 

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, Pendle Forest said:

There are 13 miles between Skipton and Colne that could go back in for around 200m.  That's double track and includes electrification from Skipton through to Preston.  This would give a fully electrified, relatively gradient flat, none-congested Northern Pennine link.  The track bed for the missing section is wholly owned by the local authorities and Network Rail.  Major earthworks are still in place and apart from rerouting the ring road at Colne onto a bridge over the tracks the route is unbroken. Thr route would give direct access from the North East to East and West Lancs, Inc Liverpool, without going through Manchester.  Connections at Burnley and Blackburn would make accessing both Manchester Stations a doddle. Yet.... nothing.  Despite the scheme being shovel ready, everyone agreeing it's a stupid not to do it, and hoardes of government ministers promising it would progress on the pipeline. 

What part of ‘most congested’ is hard to understand?

 

As desirable as reinstatement of Skipton to Colne is, that has got nothing to do with the business case for HS2 - which despite politicians trying to spin it in other ways to carry favour with various audiences is routed in the very real congestion issues on the EXISTING network, congestion which is most accuse on the WCML, MML, etc as they close in on London.

 

HS2 would, if done properly have bought benefits to huge swathes of the country either in terms of releasing capacity for increased services on the current network or providing more seats between our major cities, not just faster journey times for some city pairings.

 

Reinstatement of Skipton to Colne is fundamentally different thing - the benefits are far more localised (which is not to say they aren’t worthy), but in simple terms the proportion of the country which would benefit is tiny. 
 

In fact if you want to compare Skipton - Colne to anything than the EWR scheme between Oxford & Cambridge is a much better place to start….

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

Looking at the breakthrough more clearly, what the cutting head cuts through looks more like wattle & daub, than concrete.

[lmsforever]

Agree with you but I can rember the government of the day    pushed the decion to open into the dustbin  many many people protested about the decision but were ignored  as is the norm today.I can see rail investment halting after the next election as rail will be forgotten as other projects take over with billions wasted and no value to the people poloticians have shown with HS2 that they are not to be trusted,

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, lmsforever said:

politicians have shown with HS2 that they are not to be trusted,

There you go, corrected.

[Pendle Forest]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

What part of ‘most congested’ is hard to understand?

 

As desirable as reinstatement of Skipton to Colne is, that has got nothing to do with the business case for HS2 - which despite politicians trying to spin it in other ways to carry favour with various audiences is routed in the very real congestion issues on the EXISTING network, congestion which is most accuse on the WCML, MML, etc as they close in on London.

 

HS2 would, if done properly have bought benefits to huge swathes of the country either in terms of releasing capacity for increased services on the current network or providing more seats between our major cities, not just faster journey times for some city pairings.

 

Reinstatement of Skipton to Colne is fundamentally different thing - the benefits are far more localised (which is not to say they aren’t worthy), but in simple terms the proportion of the country which would benefit is tiny. 
 

In fact if you want to compare Skipton - Colne to anything than the EWR scheme between Oxford & Cambridge is a much better place to start….

 

 

 

 

Actually it would allow intermodal traffic to reach Trafford Park and the New Salford Port without using Castlefield corridor.  With freight removed there is no need for the extra through platforms at Piccadilly.  Drax has also made it very clear that routing it's biomass trains over the route would significantly cut costs and reduce traffic as the flow would be around rather than through Manchester.  So for that link you can unlock the Castlefield Corridor... that would provide enormous benefit across the northwest.   

 

I'm fairly certain that it removes one of the most congested routes in the UK. 

[Pendle Forest]

If we had a truly joined up system you could then carry the electrification from Bradford through to Burnley and achieve two fully electrified routes from North and West Yorkshire over in to Lancs.  Further infill from Rochdale through to Todmorden and the curve, and the additionally Blackburn to Bolton, would allow a circular route to be created linking - Manc Vic, Tod thru Rochdale - Burnley (linking in with the Yorkshire services) - Blackburn - Bolton - Manc.  With Blackburn or Burnley acting as interchanges for Blackpool, Liverpool and Crewe (swinging South at Lostock Junction).   13 miles of tracks and a wiring project most European countries would call laughingly simple as its not high speed.

[Mark Saunders]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Reinstatement of Skipton to Colne is fundamentally different thing - the benefits are far more localised (which is not to say they aren’t worthy), 

 

It's up North and doesn't count and can be safely ignore it in London!

[DenysW]

2 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

If we had a truly joined up system

We don't. We never really have.

 

However, your point is not actually as irrelevant to the HS2 budget re-allocation saga as it might seem. It sounds exactly like the sort of rational wish-list item that the present Government is promising the yet-to-be-borrowed HS2 money will be diverted to once the (next Government) decides to borrow it. My local news has £0.5Bn 'allocated 'for Leics, Notts & Rutland, but nothing for Derbyshire. Not real money, not real funding, just "please use this money wisely after it's available in 2025".

[Pendle Forest]

Apologies... I may have made it seem like it was dissociated from the budget re-allocation.  I was trying to compare both the cost of the runt of HS2 that will be built and the overall cost of the whole thing (had it been built) against the relatively modest costs, of a scheme that could have been completed very quickly, that has huge backing, and would unlock very real benefits withing 2 years if Network Rail and the procurement process got on with things. It could fundamentally transform East West travel between Lancashire, Merseyside and Gtr Manc on one side and the Ridings of Yorkshire and Tynside.