Mystery GWR 48xx Kit Built OO Gauge Model

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That's the problem. We've never had the definitive 14XX. I had hoped PDK would finally release their one. However it still doesn't look like much is happening.

 

The following kits are planned: SR D1/E1 4-4-0 (At the drawing stage), GWR 56xx (Drawings finished), 51xx, 14xx and 31xx, LNER P2 with A4 type front (At the drawing stage), LNER A5 4-6-2t, K2 2-6-0, Stanier 'Turbomotive' & Rebuilt Turbomotive 'Princess Anne'.

 

It does now have an entry on the lists though. PDK 70  GWR/BR '14xx' 0-4-2 TANK TBA

 

 

http://www.pdkmodels.co.uk/PL 5.htm

 

 

I've always thought the K's version captures the look very well even though it does have "issues". 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Jason

 

Personally I think whitemetal kits (with all their issues) replicate the originals far better than either plastic RTR or etched kits, because of their shear weight. That said the plastic RTR and etched kits may well be more accurate and detailed

 

Just personal preferences 

[tomparryharry]

23 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Surely not?

 

What about the sublime plastic body sitting on top of the execrable chassis that is the Hattons/DJM model?

 

That said, it's perfectly possible to make a decent model out of the K's kit. Like Hayfield, I also have one in P4, which I converted (with a Perseverance chassis) a few years ago from OO.

 

I've got a couple of the old K's kits knocking about here. I'll get around to one some day. As a slight aside to the much later RTR model (no names- no drill) I have a little theory about it. 

 

The last batch of those locomotives included No 1471. As such, it runs very well. I deduced, therefore that by the time 1471 came along, those happy chappies at EKN got the assembly of the model down to a fine art. In fairness to many, you don't see many of these on the 2nd hand market, which means either A:- Someone is going around buying them up. B:- The purchaser is too embarrassed to admit it, or, C:- it's working OK.  My personal choice is C. 

 

Such a pity, really,. 1 hour's tuition on a vernier and go-no go gauges would have saved a reputation or two. 

 

Enough of me! Right! Back to our advertised programme!  

[Captain Kernow]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That's the problem. We've never had the definitive 14XX.

Interesting take on the matter!

 

My personal view is that we have had the definitive 14XX body, just not the chassis to go with it.

 

I wanted a K's 14XX when I was about 13 and had planned for it to be my first whitemetal kit. Unfortunately, when I got to the model shop (Max Williams in Lawrence Hill, Bristol), I found that I didn't quite have enough money on me. Not to be deterred, though (it was a bit of a trek for me by public transport), I opted to buy the 1361 kit instead, which for some reason was a little bit cheaper.

 

I eventually did get a 14XX kit, though, and built it initially in OO. It ran well enough, but the ECM Type 3 motor I put in it was very noisy. It eventually became one of only two of my OO locos to get converted to P4, several years later, with a Perseverance chassis and Ultrascale wheels:

 

I still haven't weathered the body, but that will get done at some stage!

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Jason

 

Personally I think whitemetal kits (with all their issues) replicate the originals far better than either plastic RTR or etched kits, because of their shear weight. That said the plastic RTR and etched kits may well be more accurate and detailed

 

Just personal preferences 

Bear in mind not all Hornby locos are plastic, some recent ones have some major body parts diecast, for weight.

[BWsTrains]

Hi Everyone,

 

thanks again to everyone for all the various inputs that have helped me plan my way forward.

 

To summarise where I'm up to, the K's is a full 3mm short of my Hornby, 1mm of which is at front (measured to front axle, and 2mm at rear).

This, with my complete lack of any kit building skill removes any new chassis options from consideration.

 

From this excellent post of Tony Wright's

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/&do=findComment&comment=2031955

 

there are many examples, including one (photos #3, 4 of the post) where he shows a SE Finecast Motor pack fitted to something very like my short chassis. That + new wheels, axles and pickups to the trailing axle wheels are my choice if I can get all the parts.

 

Colin 

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Colin

 

Can I say things now have moved along a bit from older style gearbox/motor mounts. The new offerings from the likes of High Level, Comet and Branchlines are far superior. I have used all 3 and put then in the order of my preference. For what ever reason the gear boxes with smaller worms work so much better. Coupled with the use of Romford/Markit wheels which are self quartering. If you are going to use a SEF make sure it has the newer style of gears

 

If using K's frames just buy the appropriate slimline gear box. The first job would be to get a free running chassis, filing the bearings flush to the inside of the frames for the axle to be driven, just to maximise the space between the frames for the gearbox. Then get a suitable motor gearbox combination to power the loco.

 

I have successfully converter a 0-4-2 and 0-6-0 k's chassis to EM gauge, the four things each loco have in common are new wheels, motor and gearboxes, but retain the K's chassis

[BWsTrains]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Colin

 

Can I say things now have moved along a bit from older style gearbox/motor mounts. The new offerings from the likes of High Level, Comet and Branchlines are far superior. I have used all 3 and put then in the order of my preference. For what ever reason the gear boxes with smaller worms work so much better. Coupled with the use of Romford/Markit wheels which are self quartering. If you are going to use a SEF make sure it has the newer style of gears

 

If using K's frames just buy the appropriate slimline gear box. The first job would be to get a free running chassis, filing the bearings flush to the inside of the frames for the axle to be driven, just to maximise the space between the frames for the gearbox. Then get a suitable motor gearbox combination to power the loco.

 

I have successfully converter a 0-4-2 and 0-6-0 k's chassis to EM gauge, the four things each loco have in common are new wheels, motor and gearboxes, but retain the K's chassis

John,

 

I'm intending to stick with the K's chassis for reasons quoted earlier.

The existing motor runs reasonably enough but is 3 pole and the gears are crude which causes binding. The existing wheels are very poor quality, cracking / degrading so new wheels / axles are top priority.

 

Regarding choice of gearbox / motor there are a few issues that impacted my decision.

1. I don't need super high performance in terms of speed or pulling power, just a smooth runner for 1 auto-coach or a few goods vans on the flat.
    
2. Sticking with the short K's chassis prevents me from putting a larger gearbox on the rear axle as this would then put motor behind my rear chassis mounting point (and hence above it if you could get it in place past the mounting point, which you can't!). There is no easy way around this alignment constraint.
    
3. simple replacement of the motor / gear assembly driving the front wheel as in Tony's picture will fit OK, that's clear as it will be similar in size to what's in place now. I'll be calling SE Finecast to check on the specs before ordering.

Thanks for your help.

 

Colin

 

 

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

John,

 

I'm intending to stick with the K's chassis for reasons quoted earlier.

The existing motor runs reasonably enough but is 3 pole and the gears are crude which causes binding. The existing wheels are very poor quality, cracking / degrading so new wheels / axles are top priority.

 

Regarding choice of gearbox / motor there are a few issues that impacted my decision.

1. I don't need super high performance in terms of speed or pulling power, just a smooth runner for 1 auto-coach or a few goods vans on the flat.
    
2. Sticking with the short K's chassis prevents me from putting a larger gearbox on the rear axle as this would then put motor behind my rear chassis mounting point (and hence above it if you could get it in place past the mounting point, which you can't!). There is no easy way around this alignment constraint.
    
3. simple replacement of the motor / gear assembly driving the front wheel as in Tony's picture will fit OK, that's clear as it will be similar in size to what's in place now. I'll be calling SE Finecast to check on the specs before ordering.

Thanks for your help.

 

Colin

 

 

 

Colin 

 

The kit was designed for an old style 5 pole motor to fit inside the body

 

 

The left hand photo shows the Mk1 K's motor, the body of the motor stays within the locos tank. The second photo shows the rear shaft entering the cab, you could either fit a flywheel for better performance or cut it off and fit a cab interior

 

Tony's photo shows a SEF motor mount fitting into an etched chassis which measures 11mm between the frames, the brass bar chassis you have is about 9.5mm wide and is probably too thin for it

 

The left hand photo shows a Comet GB2 gearbox and a Mashima 1015 motor (Tony used a 1020) sadly the Comet gearbox is just a bit too wide to fit and I think it would have to go in upside down to fit into the boiler or drive off the rear wheels. The second photo shows the more common 1024 both with and without the rear shaft. On eBay the N20 is being sold at reasonable prices which are about the same size

 

The thing is using the K's brass bar chassis reduces your choice of gearboxes/motor mounts

 

In answer to your 3 points

1/  Choose whichever motor you require, but ensure they fit the motor mount/gearbox you are using

2/ You could drive from the rear driver with the motor facing the other way, keeping the cab clear

3/  Tony is using an etched chassis, as I said is 11mm between the frames. Having said this you could widen it by 0.5 to 1mm by putting a washer between the frame and chassis spacer as there is quite a lot of sideplay between the wheels and chassis

 

Do speak with Dave at SEF he is a great chap and extremely helpful, just explain the type of chassis you are using 

[melmerby]

The motor suppied with my 70s series kit was the shorter version of that motor. Even more room in the cab.

(I think I've still got it, along with a couple of the larger ones.)

[Steamport Southport]

Thin gearboxes, I'm pretty sure a Slimliner would fit. I've not got any experience of them though.

 

http://highlevelkits.co.uk/slimlinerpage.html

 

 

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

Thin gearboxes, I'm pretty sure a Slimliner would fit. I've not got any experience of them though.

 

http://highlevelkits.co.uk/slimlinerpage.html

Jason

 

I spoke with Chris a few weeks back about a slimliner for another project which was an Adams radial tank I am converting to EM gauge, I was going to widen the K's frames but owing to how they fit to the body I could not do this (I fitted 1 mm plasticard to both sides of the chassis) Anyway he supplied me with a gearbox which fits and works like a dream. High Level are my first port of call for motors and gearboxes, but each to their own. Recently I have built both Comet and Branchlines gearboxes which are also excellent. I never got on with the older style motor mounts

 

[melmerby]

Here's my 70s Series 48XX (original junk chassis long gone.)

 

Top body with replacement chassis

 

Bottom, chassis view showing full width:

 

Can't remember which motor I was going to use.

The screw holes were because I started with frame spacers and then decided to solder it all together.

Edited February 23, 2020 by melmerby

[longchap]

On 22/02/2020 at 16:58, Captain Kernow said:

Surely not?

 

What about the sublime plastic body sitting on top of the execrable chassis that is the Hattons/DJM model?

 

That said, it's perfectly possible to make a decent model out of the K's kit. Like Hayfield, I also have one in P4, which I converted (with a Perseverance chassis) a few years ago from OO.

 

 

This is a most timely thread, as I have a 14xx Perseverance chassis in the 'useful bits' box and a couple of DJM 48xxs, one wearing a less than happy lightly weathered factory finish, which is on the 'to do' list and is so much lovelier to look at than my ancient and unreliable Airfix units.

 

Thanks to the interesting way this thread has evolved, I seem to have yet another planned project. Thank you gents, I think!

 

Bill

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by longchap
spelling !

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, longchap said:

 

This is a most timely thread, as I have a 14xx Perseverance chassis in the 'useful bits' box and a couple of DJM 48xxs, one wearing a less than happy lightly weathered factory finish, which is on the 'to do' list and is so much lovelier to look at than my ancient and unreliable Airfix units.

 

You will need to remove a bit of metal from the Perseverance side frames, to fit the Hattons/DJM body.

 

Hopefully my blog here will be of help - 

 

 

[BWsTrains]

3 hours ago, longchap said:

 

This is a most timely thread, as I have a 14xx Perseverance chassis in the 'useful bits' box and a couple of DJM 48xxs, one wearing a less than happy lightly weathered factory finish, which is on the 'to do' list and is so much lovelier to look at than my ancient and unreliable Airfix units.

 

Thanks to the interesting way this thread has evolved, I seem to have yet another planned project. Thank you gents, I think!

 

Bill

 

 

Hi Bill,

 

fancy meeting you on here!  Your comments are spot on, I've learnt a lot and avoided many possible bear traps already.

 

Colin

Edited February 23, 2020 by BWsTrains
correction

[BWsTrains]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

Jason

 

I spoke with Chris a few weeks back about a slimliner for another project which was an Adams radial tank I am converting to EM gauge, I was going to widen the K's frames but owing to how they fit to the body I could not do this (I fitted 1 mm plasticard to both sides of the chassis) Anyway he supplied me with a gearbox which fits and works like a dream. High Level are my first port of call for motors and gearboxes, but each to their own. Recently I have built both Comet and Branchlines gearboxes which are also excellent. I never got on with the older style motor mounts

 

John,

 

Thanks. There is a good range of options at High Level with several narrow enough to fit easily.

 

Which model was it you got? any chance of posting a photo for me?

 

Colin

 

[DougN]

Thanks for the chat today Colin. Happy to help out when you have the bits. 

 

 

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

John,

 

Thanks. There is a good range of options at High Level with several narrow enough to fit easily.

 

Which model was it you got? any chance of posting a photo for me?

 

Colin

 

 

Colin

 

I think its a Roadrunner plus

 

A lot of people may be put off as its a 3 stage gearbox, but they are so simple to build and works straight out of the box (so to say) In this instance I have fitted the final drive the opposite way round, but with the 270 degrees fitting of the final drive you can choose from going under the axle to above it or go over it. The final drive now goes inside the main unit making it smaller than the size on the planning sheet

 

http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/gearboxplanner.pdf

 

Chris also has a range of motors, from Mashimas which are quite dear now, he has/had a budget replacement can motor and I bought a coreless motor at Scaleforum at a show special of £25

 

In an earlier reply I said this chassis was converthe to EM, look at the second photo you can see I have widened the frames with a piece of 40 thou (1mm) plasticard on both sides. If I tried widening the chassis frames it would have resulted in a massive rebuilding around the cylinder area. I bought this loco ready built and the conversion was a quickie. As it happens a standard Road Runner may have been a better fit and I may well change it. But whilst the motor fitting looks awkward it works fine and is invisible

 

Yust to state my first choice is to fit an etched chassis where possible, my second choice is to either widen the frames internally (Markits sell EM frame spacers) so I can have a wider choice of gearbox, or as in this case widen the outside of the frames. This shows however High Level Road Runner gear boxes fit between K's frames

[EHertsGER]

Alas, this seems to be the only place remotely associated with kits for the 14xx/48xx and so on, so please indulge my request - a little.

 

I have come into the possession of a Perseverance kit for the 14xx in 4mm scale, but need a set of instructions. Certainly I can sit and work it out (its a 14xx - we all know what they look like, right...?),  but on the off-chance someone may have a set and would be gracious enough to send me a scanned copy, I stand before you, cap in hand...

 

Also, if anyone has any comments on the kit, those too would be useful. I may already have spotted one issue - the cab-side cut-outs seems rather too small when offered to a drawing in Russells ‘Pictorial Record...’

 

My appreciation and thanks in advance,

 

Best,

Marcus

[5050]

Here's my K's 14xx which I built originally in the early 70's for OO gauge.  When bought it had the stamped 'keyhole' chassis design.  I can't remember now whether I initially built it with this or not!  Probably not actually as the chassis it has now was originally OO width with washers now taking up the slack for P4.  Whatever, when I decided in the late 70's to go wholeheartedly to P4 it, along with a Triang Hornby (allegedly) 57xx Pannier, were the first 2 locos I converted.  The 14xx uses Sharman wheels, Romford 40:1 gears and a DS10 motor driving the front axle with the rear and carrying axles compensated with a central beam.  I overhauled it last year, a good clean, pickups 'tweaked', new 58xx number and shed plates etc.  Over the years it has served me well on several Western Region exhibition layouts, even appearing in one of the old Model Railway Constructor/Ian Allan 'how to do it' books.  With the 40:1 gearing it's a bit quick off the mark compared to how I gear locos these days but I can live with it.

 

 

When compared to the Airfix body the short front end is quite noticeable.

 

 

I'd also point out that way back when (1950's), Sayer Chaplin offered an 'etched' 14xx kit which, when made, was very good - but rather a lot of work.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by 5050