Manor Announced for 00

[Ian Hargrave]

40 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I'm no expert on the finer points of GW locos but they both look like Manors to me. 

The choice seems to be down to how well they run (which we don't yet know) and the price difference.

The choice is of course down to each individual whose own knowledge and experience of its prototype will….or ideally should….. play its part. It is surely an oversimplification to put it down to a “ see how they run “ experience. This isn’t a comparison thread  in any case.It’s concerned with a soon to be released model from Dapol and not Accurascale .

 

FWIW…..and I spotted my first at Newton Abbot in August 1953…the model concerning this individual thread falls short in plain sight of what it should be,irrespective of how well it might perform . We should deal with its competition as and when it appears 

[Dunsignalling]

I'm intending to buy a couple of Dapol ex-GWR locos this year, but neither of them will be Manors.

 

Sorry, but unless one or both of those photos are wildly out, theirs just doesn't stack up against the competition.

 

John

[Accurascale Fran]

43 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m loathe to comment on another manufacturers thread, however in the name of balance it’s only right this diagram is commented on. Yes, if you had one scanner in one position this diagram might be somewhat true. However, scans are done from several positions with several scanners. This includes use of telescopic tripods etc to get a true scan of the whole subject.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

[Neal Ball]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I think I said in another thread recently that Dapol's policy of disengagement from their customers might bite them back one day.

 

 

Yes I agree Phil. Dapol are playing a dangerous game by ignoring their customers in the manner that they are doing at the moment. I wonder what the logic is.

 

I'm glad I staked my money on the Accurascale model.... if only it was Accurascale making the Toplights, then I would be very happy.

[Harlequin]

6 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

 

Yes I agree Phil. Dapol are playing a dangerous game by ignoring their customers in the manner that they are doing at the moment. I wonder what the logic is.

 

I'm glad I staked my money on the Accurascale model.... if only it was Accurascale making the Toplights, then I would be very happy.

 

I think we have to consider the products individually. We know Dapol can do great things and the Toplights look very good so far. No reason to think they won't be excellent models, at the moment.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Harlequin

[Miss Prism]

6 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Yes, if you had one scanner in one position this diagram might be somewhat true. However, scans are done from several positions with several scanners. This includes use of telescopic tripods etc to get a true scan of the whole subject.

 

Yes, I am aware of that, and glad to hear btw that everyone has 13'-high tripods - I was merely making a point that laser-scanning alone is fraught with difficulty. Ask Bachmann why it took three attempts to get the cantrail on its Class 40 correct. Time after time, we've seen the error zone is the cantrail and the roof. (Or the longitudinal positioning of features on e.g. a long coach.)

 

 

[Mallard60022]

I have an Accurascale on pre Order. A Reading Engine around my period. I think they look the dog's whatsits and I shall keep it in Reading Pet Station Pilot condition. It will be purloined at Reading, to work a to be 'diverted' fast WR Express through SJ circa 1960/61, as the booked Castle was not going to be allowed to get wet if it got to St David's and was needed anyway to replace one of the several Engines that had got marooned west of Execeter. 

However, I reckon for the 'average modeller' as RM would put it, a Dapol one could be fine, if it works OK etc.

For our purposes being, of course, way above average modellers*, a Dapol one covered in Stealth Bomber filth & with a replacement Chimney and Tender stuffed with real Coal, will probably look OK. The matt filth tones hiding the wonky shape and the beautifully arranged Tender contents taking the eye away from the humpty dumpty FB an Boiler. Amazing what an affect filth can have on one I am told.

I'll get back in my Cell now.

Philth

 

 

*So I am told by sight impaired mates.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Mallard60022

[Ian Hargrave]

15 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

 

Yes I agree Phil. Dapol are playing a dangerous game by ignoring their customers in the manner that they are doing at the moment. I wonder what the logic is.

 

I'm glad I staked my money on the Accurascale model.... if only it was Accurascale making the Toplights, then I would be very happy.

The disengagement goes back to an incident several years ago when a member of this forum posted matter that caused Dapol to withdraw its friendly and regular forum presence and threaten court action. It is obviously a sensitive area and remains a situation in which there are no winners and is a great shame. Dapol produce some great stuff in 3 scales it should be remembered.

[Neal Ball]

6 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

The disengagement goes back to an incident several years ago when a member of this forum posted matter that caused Dapol to withdraw its friendly and regular forum presence and threaten court action. It is obviously a sensitive area and remains a situation in which there are no winners and is a great shame. Dapol produce some great stuff in 3 scales it should be remembered.

 

Thanks Ian, I am aware of that.

 

For the greater good, they should rise above it.

[Les1952]

10 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I think I said in another thread recently that Dapol's policy of disengagement from their customers might bite them back one day.

 

 

Talking to Neil a lot of the disengagement was due to some heavy duty slagging off, which crossed the line to abusive.  

 

There has been a deal of heavy duty criticism on here so RMWeb got tarred with the same brush....

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Hi everyone,

 

I’m loathe to comment on another manufacturers thread, however in the name of balance it’s only right this diagram is commented on. Yes, if you had one scanner in one position this diagram might be somewhat true. However, scans are done from several positions with several scanners. This includes use of telescopic tripods etc to get a true scan of the whole subject.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

 

There is also the fact that locos in preservation change from those in service.  Laser scanning or measuring a preserved one will pick up odd changed details.  The classic example is the number of A3s models that have the top of the trough deflectors at the wrong angle due to having scanned or measured Flying Scotsman where the angle is different on the preserved loco to those in service with BR.

 

Les

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

 

Thanks Ian, I am aware of that.

 

For the greater good, they should rise above it.

Reading some comments on here I can understand why they stay away.

 

This forum is a great place for a manufacturer to engage when in vogue, but a hostile one to engage when not. There was never a dull moment when DJ frequented the site.

 

Myself, I just look at the model and consider the manufacturers track record. if theres an oppourtunity to feedback in the design i’d like to help, but many use it to hang the manufacturer.
 

The pinnacle of detailistas here will count every rivet and harrange a 0.25mm difference, others stay silent through out the EP process and only draw the knives when the rtr arrives, and stick it in deep.

 

it takes all sorts.

I can see tribalism in this thread.

 

however…

I am interested on those plugs on the firebox though… looking at pictures of both 7800 and 7818, both models are correct and there must be different firebox patterns within the class.  This is what makes buying one rtr and renumbering as another a bit of a minefield… the position of the cabside is correct for both too.

 

7800 firebox Plugs with 5 on the top row and 4 below

and 7818 below (though different images online reveal different fireboxes / plugs in its life).

https://www.whathappenedtosteam.com/blog/2017/09/05/investigating-gwr-78xx-series-4-6-0-no-7818-granville-manor/
 

 

Being spoilt isnt always a good thing, theres 18 / 30 manors being made..not the ones I want, but to buy and bodge a wrong one makes no sense, however making an accurate one is an uphill battle, if the bits arent there… its definitely a 2022 1st world problem.. we didnt have that choice in 1983, and back then I didnt care either.

 

i’ll probably end up with both, assuming they look right and sit nicely together, and right now it does.

 

Its easier with diesels for sure.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by adb968008

[jamieb]

I can understand why Dapol don't engage with this forum,it can sometimes get very toxic,with self proclaimed experts pontificating about minute details ,their word being taken as gospel

It seems at the moment that Dapol and Hornby get criticised for everything,yet Accurascale and Rapido have their fanboys drooling over every thing they do.

I have no issue at all with Accurascale,and their Manor may well turn out to be the superior offering,but it doesn't mean that the Dapol one is rubbish.

There's always a whiff of Emperor's New Clothes about some of these new manufacturers.To the best of my knowledge, Accurascale are yet to release a steam locomotive into the market,Rapido were the best thing since sliced bread,until a few brave souls actually questioned the pig's ear they made of the 16XX bunker.

If I was a manufacturer,I'd avoid these kind of forums like the plague as very little constructive criticism comes back,and as Dapol found out,it can actually get nasty 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

So if the scanning head was much higher off the ground the result would be different, and if the scan was done at several different heights it would be even more different. So then you might get a 'Manor' that looked much more like a 'Manor' than a 'Castle' 😇

[maico]

Swindon shed 1961 shows the boiler taper quite well...

[David Stannard]

 I will agree with a number of people here regarding the toxicicty that comes oozing forth like a lava flow from an erupting volcano, couple that with the fanboy mentality and we can see why some manufacturers turn off when it comes to comments/opinions posted on this site, I can remember the absolute panning that Oxford received over the Dean's Goods, the Manor's are a small class with 30 built over a 12 year period with some changes that were made standard across the whole class and were only in service for about 25 years, the Dean on the other hand had 260 built over a 16 year period with some lasting up to 60 years with a host of changes made during that time.

 

 With regards to the Dapol Manor I did hold high hopes of an accurate portrayal of the class as they have done with the 53xx Mogul, what sealed the deal with me is the compromise they made with the chimney, Accurascale have offered both variations of the chimney with their model, whilst Dapol has offered their model with something that does not look like anything that adorned the class, it's not like any manufacturer has ever offered variations on chimneys on a class of locomotives before including Dapol.            

[Neal Ball]

Thanks to all who commented earlier on my Dapol thoughts.

 

I won’t repeat them again, but I would add, that my comments are also skewed by a lack of reply to emails…. Constructive ones!

 

A while ago, I sent an email about a possible new project that I was involved in and suggested that a new GWR 0-6-0 Pannier tank loco would make a good inclusion in their range. I added som research some photos etc. and also some market research about the type of loco.

 

There was no criticism of any other items in their range etc.

 

They couldn’t even be bothered to reply.

 

Plus, when the Toplights were announced, I put a positive “thank you” comment on the post, which is subject to moderation. Nothing has been posted.

 

Thats the level of disengagement they have with their customers.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Reading some comments on here I can understand why they stay away.

 

This forum is a great place for a manufacturer to engage when in vogue, but a hostile one to engage when not. There was never a dull moment when DJ frequented the site.

 

Myself, I just look at the model and consider the manufacturers track record. if theres an oppourtunity to feedback in the design i’d like to help, but many use it to hang the manufacturer.
 

The pinnacle of detailistas here will count every rivet and harrange a 0.25mm difference, others stay silent through out the EP process and only draw the knives when the rtr arrives, and stick it in deep.

 

it takes all sorts.

I can see tribalism in this thread.

 

however…

I am interested on those plugs on the firebox though… looking at pictures of both 7800 and 7818, both models are correct and there must be different firebox patterns within the class.  This is what makes buying one rtr and renumbering as another a bit of a minefield… the position of the cabside is correct for both too.

 

7800 firebox Plugs with 5 on the top row and 4 below

and 7818 below (though different images online reveal different fireboxes / plugs in its life).

https://www.whathappenedtosteam.com/blog/2017/09/05/investigating-gwr-78xx-series-4-6-0-no-7818-granville-manor/
 

 

Being spoilt isnt always a good thing, theres 18 / 30 manors being made..not the ones I want, but to buy and bodge a wrong one makes no sense, however making an accurate one is an uphill battle, if the bits arent there… its definitely a 2022 1st world problem.. we didnt have that choice in 1983, and back then I didnt care either.

 

i’ll probably end up with both, assuming they look right and sit nicely together, and right now it does.

 

Its easier with diesels for sure.

 

Location and number of washout plugs did/do vary, possibly between boilers constructed for the GWR and BR-built batches of Manors. Photographic evidence of one loco having both types will be an indication of it having received a different boiler at overhaul. 

 

Careful matching of the models you can buy to photos of the ones you want should turn up suitable candidates for renaming. There aren't that many other differences.

 

No partisanship on my part, I own several Dapol locos with which I am very satisfied, and consider one of them, the little B4 tank, to be one of the finest r-t-r locos produced by anyone. I opined that the early Manor images released by Dapol just didn't look right (and why) from the word go, long before any photographs emerged from Accurascale, and my assessment was backed up by others with much greater knowledge than I.

 

Given the time that has elapsed between then and the release of final sample images, Dapol should not have been "past the point of no return" at that time, but none of what was pointed out appears to have been adjusted/corrected, nor any rebuttal issued of those criticisms. Even if Dapol don't want to participate in a Forum such as RMWeb, it doesn't prevent them picking up legitimate and well-intentioned feedback from some of their target audience.

 

As for diesels being "easier", the closer you look, and the longer your chosen subject lasted in service, the more variations you find. I suggest you check out earlier threads relating to Bachmann Class 37s, especially on the subject of cantrail grilles IIRC!

 

John

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Ian Hargrave]

8 hours ago, jamieb said:

I can understand why Dapol don't engage with this forum,it can sometimes get very toxic,with self proclaimed experts pontificating about minute details ,their word being taken as gospel

It seems at the moment that Dapol and Hornby get criticised for everything,yet Accurascale and Rapido have their fanboys drooling over every thing they do.

I have no issue at all with Accurascale,and their Manor may well turn out to be the superior offering,but it doesn't mean that the Dapol one is rubbish.

There's always a whiff of Emperor's New Clothes about some of these new manufacturers.To the best of my knowledge, Accurascale are yet to release a steam locomotive into the market,Rapido were the best thing since sliced bread,until a few brave souls actually questioned the pig's ear they made of the 16XX bunker.

If I was a manufacturer,I'd avoid these kind of forums like the plague as very little constructive criticism comes back,and as Dapol found out,it can actually get nasty 

That’s a somewhat jaundiced view of the membership of this forum which is in many cases both experienced and knowledgeable.In any media online “outlet “ such as this,you are bound to experience the lunatic fringe and the occasional sycophantic outburst from the so-called “fanboy “.This is why we have moderators and the “report” button.Don’t confuse genuine criticism with abusive rhetoric   

 

     As to manufacturers engaging or avoiding contact,that can and does work both ways. There are several members who over the course of many years have assisted  them….at their request…in the development of models at various stages of production. In other words,this forum can be an extremely valuable resource and hopefully will continue to be so.It is also a valuable conduit for feedback information. Accurascale atm seem to be harnessing an ongoing relationship very well and diplomatically  to date. DJ unfortunately didn’t ,abused it and eventually fell foul of it,fell off his perch and was caught out. 
          Footnote: the Rapido 16XX is….apart from the slight bunker indiscretion…..an excellent model. IMHO pork crackling rather than pig’s ear…but that’s my personal opinion.

 

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

That’s a somewhat jaundiced view of the membership of this forum which is in many cases both experienced and knowledgeable.In any media online “outlet “ such as this,you are bound to experience the lunatic fringe and the occasional sycophantic outburst from the so-called “fanboy “.This is why we have moderators and the “report” button.Don’t confuse genuine criticism with abusive rhetoric   

 

     As to manufacturers engaging or avoiding contact,that can and does work both ways. There are several members who over the course of many years have assisted  them….at their request…in the development of models at various stages of production. In other words,this forum can be an extremely valuable resource and hopefully will continue to be so.It is also a valuable conduit for feedback information. Accurascale atm seem to be harnessing an ongoing relationship very well and diplomatically  to date. DJ unfortunately didn’t ,abused it and eventually fell foul of it,fell off his perch and was caught out. 
          Footnote: the Rapido 16XX is….apart from the slight bunker indiscretion…..an excellent model. IMHO pork crackling rather than pig’s ear…but that’s my personal opinion.

 

The weakness of Social Media is the stress on the Moderators to police the very active threads. Must be a nightmare. There can be a Lynch Mob culture with some folk once they get going, even on here sadly.

P

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

The weakness of Social Media is the stress on the Moderators to police the very active threads. Must be a nightmare. There can be a Lynch Mob culture with some folk once they get going, even on here sadly.

P

 
And we can help by pressing the report button when we know a post is vexatious….even if secretly we might agree with the opinions expressed.  To repeat: forum rules are available for all to read. Evidently some are either unaware of their existence or choose to ignore them in their “alter ego” as armchair warrior.

[Harlequin]

Any manufacturer that actively engages with its user/customer community has to take the rough with the smooth! (I know because I'm on the other end of the conversation in a different field.)

 

There will be a lot of ill-informed opinion, irrelevant waffle, tedious repetition and sometimes nastiness but there will also be genuinely useful information and good suggestions. So there is positive value for a manufacturer - if they can put up with all the bad stuff.

 

It really helps the conversation if people realise that manufacturers are operating under all sorts of constraints that we, the customers, probably don't fully appreciate. We should give them the benefit of the doubt for some of their decisions. They are trying to make the best products they can within a very complicated set of restrictions, compromises and trade-offs.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Harlequin

[woodenhead]

@wheeltapper2 Forget what is written on these pages, look at the images of the model, perhaps even wait until the models are in your hands - then decide do you like them or not.  If you feel that the model does not capture what it is you expect, then return them for a refund.

 

The problem with allowing others to make decisions for you is that it's your opinion on the model that matters, not theirs.

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, wheeltapper2 said:

The Wheelbase is shortened to allow tight radius curves

 

Good heavens, who claimed that? I hope not, in this day and age that would be a faux pas of epic proportions.

 

They look the same in the comparison pic.

 

I still have a Bachmann (ex-Mainline) Manor, in lined green (31-308 I think) and quite like the way it looks. But then I turn up the controller and.............🙄

[PMP99]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

 

Good heavens, who claimed that? I hope not, in this day and age that would be a faux pas of epic proportions.

 

They look the same in the comparison pic.

 

I still have a Bachmann (ex-Mainline) Manor, in lined green (31-308 I think) and quite like the way it looks. But then I turn up the controller and.............🙄

I like my Bachmann one too, however it is fitted with the Hornby Grange chassis and DCC so runs pretty well.

 

However, I dare say I will be looking at upgrading, or adding to, the fleet once I have assessed either manufacturers forthcoming models.