What is a professional

[Pacific231G]

47 minutes ago, MarkC said:

As has been said before, Titanic was designed, built and operated by professionals; the Ark was designed, built and operated by amateurs... 

Yes but it was only designed for one voyage. Had it not hit the iceberg in a particular way the Titanic would have gone on being operated by professionals for many more voyages as did its sister ship The Olympic (until 1935)  Ships might also have gone on sailing without enough lifeboats, radio listening watches etc. right into the First World War.

I'll bet the Ark didn't have ANY lifeboats nor any watertight bulkheads so if it had barely touched an iceberg.......... !! 

[chris p bacon]

I teased a group of PROBUS members some time ago (too young to join and wouldn't anyway)  I asked what it stood for, the answer was 'Professional & Business"  I laughed as they were all what I would call 'middle management' in companies like BT with not a profession amongst them.  

The only person I know who did qualify was a solicitor, but she couldn't join.  

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

There are some astoundingly good model makers around, but I don’t think that any body exists that can award the status of Chartered Model Maker.

Thank goodness for that.  It would be like having "chartered authors", "qualified artists", "licenced poets". or "approved cinematographers". 

I find the NMRA's attempts to set itself up as the arbitrer of good modelling fatuous. Setting technical standards for manufacturers to follow so that wheels and track work together, locos go the same way when you set the controller for a certain direction and you don't have to worry whether a particular loco is wired for 6.9.12 or 24 volts is all to the good but reducing what is essentially an interpretive art form to a set of criteria based on a particular view of the hobby makes no sense at all. I also notice that service to the NMRA is one of the requirements to becoming a "Master Model Railroader". I'd also note that, had we, heaven forbid, had an equivalent in Britain, neither Guy Williams nor Roye England could have qualified because they would both have been too specialised and not "rounded" enough.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Kylestrome]

In the days before graphic design became a thing people that did that sort of work were called commercial artists. If the word 'professional' is too contentious, maybe the term 'commercial modeller' would be less offensive? 

[Nearholmer]

I wasn’t advocating The MRC, or another club, seeking a Royal Charter, or regulating the practice of model making, merely observing.

 

Professional registration is really a sensible thing when poor practice needs to be controlled to prevent loss of life, limb, or property. A dodgy bit of model making doesn’t really fall into that bracket.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

The most effective and concise definition of a “Leader” I remember from my time in industrial management was simply this:

 

Someone who has followers.

 

Applying this principle here, as others have already suggested, can look like this:

 

A professional is someone who has customers.

 

Following the logic therefore:

 

How do I qualify as a customer, in order to be able to validate / justify / legitimise the work of a professional?

 

 

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I wasn’t advocating The MRC, or another club, seeking a Royal Charter, or regulating the practice of model making, merely observing.

 

Professional registration is really a sensible thing when poor practice needs to be controlled to prevent loss of life, limb, or property. A dodgy bit of model making doesn’t really fall into that bracket.

I agree but there seem to be occupations that go down that road in order to appear respectable or to give status to their members. I expect my accountant to have acquired a well defined body of knowledge  to be an ICAEW so know a SORP from an FRS. If I board  get on an airliner I know that both pilots have higher level licences than mine;  I know that my GP has done years of training and passed all the relevant exams but if I hire a TV director I want to see their work and credits and whether it's relevant to my production not a certificate of competency from some Director's Guild and  if  a cameraman tells me that he's a fellow of the Insitute of Videography I know that he's more likely to have filmed weddings than Horizon.

[newbryford]

4 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I teased a group of PROBUS members some time ago (too young to join and wouldn't anyway)  I asked what it stood for, the answer was 'Professional & Business"   

 

I know a few guys that are members of a nearby club, refer to it as 

"Prostrate Removed, Other Bits Under Surveillance" due to their age and general health.

[TheQ]

15 hours ago, Barry O said:

To be a Professional Engineer, at the time I qualified, meant gaining an approved Engineering Degree with Honours, up to 5 years of work experience ( with a detailed resume showing promotions, business management positions and progression) and a 2 hour interview.  Nowadays an MSc is a good start.

 

Baz

 

 

The problem being is that it's not a legal definition,  Currys will send an "enigineer" to see to a television or washing machine.. All they'll do is check it switches on and if not take it away,  not much training for that. 

 

I have a degree,  and with various courses about 5 years further training,  but I'm classed as a technician . I believe there should be legal,  definitions of mechanic,  technician,  engineer,  professional engineer. Etc.

 

One odd thing about professional bodies,  that now require Honours degrees or MSCs is that the founders had no qualifications at all,  as the qualifications didn't exist at the time.. 

[Nearholmer]

 “I believethere should be legal,  definitions of mechanic,  technician,  engineer,  professional engineer. Etc.”
 

There already are, in the sense that the terms defined by the Engineering Council, i.e. Chartered Engineer, Incorporated Engineer, Technician Engineer, have protected status.

 

Details of those here https://www.engc.org.uk/engcdocuments/internet/Website/UK-SPEC third edition (1).pdf

The problem isn’t lack of of protected definitions, it is that ‘common language’ largely ignores them, and most people haven’t the faintest what they mean even if they hear them.

 

I’m not sure what the answer to that problem is, or indeed whether it actually is a problem ...... provided that people aren’t doing things that they are dangerously incompetent to do, does it actually matter what generic term they use to describe themselves?

I’ve seen people calling themselves ‘Phone Doctor’, but nobody seriously believes that they are an MD, PhD etc., and no danger arises because of it.

 

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Lantavian said:

Professionals, traditionally, had clients.

Ladies of the night would agree.

[Oldddudders]

Incidentally the OP on this thread hasn't been on RMweb since lobbing in his shell yesterday morning. 

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I'll stop now, the soapbox is wobbling....

 

You should have got one from a professional soapbox engineer!

 

10 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Incidentally the OP on this thread hasn't been on RMweb since lobbing in his shell yesterday morning. 

 

Not so much of a shell, more a damp squib.  Anyhow, its provided something to talk about other than covid19 and panic buying!

 

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

Do tell more about how you gathered this information ............

 

Classified, I am afraid..... I know your background means you will understand. 

[BoD]

16 hours ago, pH said:

 

But who built the iceberg?

 

A professional with a string of lettuce after their name.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

You should have got one from a professional soapbox engineer!

 

 

Remember! Get 3 quotes!

[boxbrownie]

On 26/03/2020 at 08:39, Joseph_Pestell said:

Artisan

I thought they just made bread or weird alcoholic drinks......

[newbryford]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Incidentally the OP on this thread hasn't been on RMweb since lobbing in his shell yesterday morning. 

 

I wonder if the OP has had issues with a Professional..............?

[298]

20 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

The US NMRA Master Model Railroader scheme always strikes me as a little showing off like the competition side of model engineering and military modelling. I appreciate the excuse to have a show to display them but as others have said previous results speak more than any paper certificates in this hobby. Professional is a useful tag to tell people you do it as a service but I’d still want to see the previous work as like art the style and mediums of expertise are equally important to me.

We certainly don’t need qualifications and certifications adding as they just add cost....

 

It always came over to me as a box-ticking exercise and derived from elements of the hobby in the US such as building on a 8x4 and operating a basement empire. Most serious modellers on the UK exhibition circuit could easily have achieved alot of the categories, but that only shows their achievements as hurdles to get over, rather than your own individual learning exercise such as doing it all again with another layout to show yourself and educate to others how to improve. 

 

Plus there is a load of paperwork and I don't like doing that at the best of times....

[Reorte]

There's some need, I think, to separate out the general and specific meanings of words. Someone earlier posted about professional organisations, but they existed after the word did and you can't really wander in and claim ownership of a word. Language is usually fairly imprecise, which has both merits and downsides. Context is key. Using "energy" and "power" as synonyms is wrong in engineering or physics circles, because when engineers and physicists start discussing engineering and physics there's an unspoken agreement that they are conforming to a precise definition of those terms that they've agreed on for the purposes of such discussion. That doesn't make using them in other ways in less formal types of conversation incorrect - the words were borrowed but not owned.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

I wonder if the OP has had issues with a Professional..............?

I think the thread was originally posted in the BRM part of the forum, implying that he finds that mag's acceptance of 'professional' ads offensive. It does indeed suggest he's had a bad experience. Had he privately messaged the publishing team, he might have had a little assistance behind the scenes. 

[Allegheny1600]

10 hours ago, TheQ said:

 Currys will send an "enigineer" to see to a television or washing machine.. All they'll do is check it switches on and if not take it away,  not much training for that. 

My uncle who trained as a TV repairman when such was a real job, once fixed a friends battery powered clock - they had fitted a new battery but the clock wouldn't work.

After giving the clock a once over, he simply shook it with a rotating motion and the clock sprang into life!

As he put it "Three years training, just to shake a clock"!

Obviously, the skill was in knowing how to shake the clock and even that it was worth a try but there you go.

[Allegheny1600]

Another story - a former acquaintance of mine tried to become a "professional weatherer" and despite my guidance, wouldn't add details to a model nor would he clean paint/gunk from the lcos wheels.

Therefore, his customers would have to give the loco a wheel clean first of all, then add "clean" details - this looks ridiculous!

However, he is cheap and that's all some folks are interested in, I guess. 

[newbryford]

8 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

Obviously, the skill was in knowing how to shake the clock and even that it was worth a try but there you go.

 

Up and down, not side-to-side..........................

[karlbstd]

On 26/03/2020 at 09:06, Kylestrome said:

I'd love to know what "qualifications" you need to become a professional railway modeller. 

I think a large wallet and a sense of humour are good starting points? But everyone’s different!