locomotive kits 30368's Workbench SR Loco's with a bit of LNER

[John Tomlinson]

FWIW I made one of these some years ago.

 

I didn't find it an easy kit, mainly due to my lack of experience, however the final outcome I was pleased with and it runs well (A High Level box and 1420 Mashima IIRC). I wasn't aware of the dimensional issue in the wheelbase, although like you I had to mess around with the boiler casting to get something about right in diameter allowing for the cladding.

 

The main problem is the front bogie against the cylinders, Raven's fault not DJH's, and my cylinders are filed off a bit at the back to help with travelling around curves (it doesn't really show). As a someone who isn't an NER specialist it looks like a B16/1 to me, although I'm sure better models can be made.

 

This one is clearly well on course now!

 

John.

Edited March 2, 2023 by John Tomlinson
typo

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, mikemeg said:

One of the problems with the B16 is the large distance between the front driving wheels and the bogie such that the front bogie wheels (and the rear ones also) potentially fowl the cylinders around curves, though I didn't encounter this problem as my minimum radius curve is 4' 6". Allegedly it is this problem which has prevented the r-t-r guys from producing a B16.

This topic came up on my A8 build thread. I'm now stopped with mine until I get home, as I need a length of 8BA stud bar to make the pivot, which is also the front body securing point.

Once done, I'll be able to test the loco's ability to get round curves without issues.

 

One contributor came up with some 'out of the box' thinking re this bogie/cylinder interface issue and RTR, but I can certainly see why the RTR folk are unlikely to offer a B16/H1/A8 etc.

 

Mark

[30368]

Progress with the running plate and fit with chassis and boiler. Crossheads foul the front footsteps so I have eased the leading edge of the footsteps and re-jigged the crosshead/connecting rod fixing arrangement for a lower profile.

I have adopted a sub-assembly approach to this build. The boiler, running plate and cab are being assembled separately and then painted and lined before final assembly. I know this approach is favoured by a number of builders. It seems to be working well so far.

 

Running plate in primer.

 

I have had to remove about 1mm from the mainframe/wheel splasher casting to get it to line up with the front portion of the mainframes. Lots more detail to add but it begins to look like a B16/1.

 

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[30368]

As suggested by those that have built one of these before me, I will have to make adjustment to the front and rear (perhaps) cylinders to accommodate the bogie wheels. These are 12mm Alan Gibson wheels, which are correctly smaller than those included in the kit, but still won't clear the cylinders. 

 

Started to add some detail, the mechanical lubricators and steam reverser operating rod etc.

 

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Richard B

Edited March 5, 2023 by 30368

[Pebbles]

1 hour ago, 30368 said:

As suggested by those that have built one of these before me, I will have to make adjustment to the front and rear (perhaps) cylinders to accommodate the bogie wheels. These are 12mm Alan Gibson wheels, which are correctly smaller than those included in the kit, but still won't clear the cylinders. 

 

Started to add some detail, the mechanical lubricators and steam reverser operating rod etc.

 

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Richard B

There are two points that you may wish to consider that, whilst not solving the problem, could make the solution easier.

I tend to think that the footplate is rather thick/deep with the result that the cylinders are seated to low. The depth of the cylinders needs to be reduced to compensate.

The crosshead is rather large and  the slide bars quite widely spaced. You could replace the crossheads with a couple from Wizard Models and reposition the slide bars to suit.

 

On 02/03/2023 at 17:38, MarkC said:

This topic came up on my A8 build thread. I'm now stopped with mine until I get home, as I need a length of 8BA stud bar to make the pivot, which is also the front body securing point.

Once done, I'll be able to test the loco's ability to get round curves without issues.

 

One contributor came up with some 'out of the box' thinking re this bogie/cylinder interface issue and RTR, but I can certainly see why the RTR folk are unlikely to offer a B16/H1/A8 etc.

 

Mark

 

[MarkC]

Just looking at my Little Engines A8, the cylinders/crossheads/slide bars do look a little less, well, <agricultural> than the DJH offerings, so every little helps. We will see.

 

Mind you, even these aren't as neat as the ones in 52F Models' A8 & H1 chassis kits. Those kits are also designed with bogie swing control via a central pin, plus full compensation.

 

Mark

[mikemeg]

Richard,

 

I wonder if I might ask 'Whose lining have you used and from where is it obtained, for the BR mixed traffic lining on this model?. I remember thinking, when you painted and lined your G5 build, how good the lining looked, I have always used the HMRS methfix/pressfix lining for BR mixed traffic livery but your model lining does look much better. 

 

Also though I'm not certain on this but were the boiler bands on the firebox actually lined?

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by mikemeg

[30368]

 

1 hour ago, mikemeg said:

I wonder if I might ask 'Whose lining have you used and from where is it obtained, for the BR mixed traffic lining on this model?. I remember thinking, when you painted and lined your G5 build, how good the lining looked, I have always used the HMRS methfix/pressfix lining for BR mixed traffic livery but your model lining does look much better. 

 

Hi Mike,

 

The boiler bands on th B16 were from Fox Transfers, appearance good but very fragile. On the G5, if my memory is correct, I used ModelMaster and will do so on the cab and running plate (and tender) on this build. I have a good stock of MT livery! I use Microscale Micro Set to fix the decals.

 

My prototype guidance on this build has been Book Law's An Illustrated Appreciation: 1 Raven B16's. The cover picture of a B16/1 makes it clear that the firebox was lined. The cyliners are not lined which was, I think, standard Darlington practice.

 

A perhaps interesting aside, I know of a number of SR modeller's that are also keen on the LNER and it's loco's, perhaps it is down to the GWR influence on LMS loco policy? The GWR has never been flavour of the month for SR, particularly LSWR enthusiasts so perhaps that explains it!

 

In the early 1960's I spent some time collecting loco numbers at ScR, NER and ER sheds and was lucky enough to see all those Q6/J27 doing their stuff around places like Tyne Dock, North/South Blyth etc.... This intensified when I got my first BR Free Passes when starting my apprenticeship at Eastleigh Works in 1963. Seems all a bit of a dream now......

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[mikemeg]

Hi Richard,

 

Many thanks for the info re the ModelMaster transfers which I will certainly try.

 

Your comments re the sheds of the North East reminded me of a trip I made around Easter of 1962, up to Newcastle. It was a Sunday trip and I can vividly remember bunking around Gateshead, Heaton and Tyne Dock sheds. Gateshead and Heaton had an incredible mixture of ex NER ad LNER locos but the most memorable part of that Sunday afternoon was the roundhouse at Tyne Dock. By this time the roundhouse roof had gone but around the turntable were the last four N10's and some of the Q7's. I think twelve of the Q7's, all of which were then shedded at Tyne Dock, were in Tyne Dock shed, that day.

 

Oh and the return trip, from Newcastle to Hull was on a special, which travelled the LNER East Coast Main Line to York and then around the York - Church Fenton - Selby 'loop' on its way back to Hull. The locomotive was 60002 - Sir Murrough Wilson, of Gateshead shed. Quite late out of Newcastle, it arrived quite early into Hull, so must have got a move on!!

 

Oh to be able to re-live just one of those steam shed Sundays!!

 

Long while ago Richard; magical days in those great 'cathedrals' dedicated to the steam locomotive; the locomotive sheds of the old North Eastern.

 

Regards

 

MIke

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by mikemeg

[t-b-g]

You have done a really good job sorting out the problems with the boiler and the smokebox saddle and that has really improved the look of the model compared to using the parts as supplied.

 

I am a bit puzzled by the cylinders. On the real thing, there was a considerable flat area between the cylinder and the bottom edge of the valance.

 

The top slidebar was also a bit lower than it is on the model, being just above the upper step on the steps just behind the cylinder.

 

On the model, there is not really any flat area and the gap between the top slidebar and the bottom of the valance looks a bit too small. It may be that the cylinders are correct and it is the depth of the valance and the height of the steps that are wrong.

 

To my eyes, it looks as if the cylinders are either too big a diameter, or mounted too high up, rather than being too low down. So I wouldn't be looking to raise them any more. Again, it is hard to tell exactly what is wrong without measuring and comparing to drawings but something is just a little bit adrift there and I wonder if there is any merit in investigating what it is before you go much further.

[MarkC]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

You have done a really good job sorting out the problems with the boiler and the smokebox saddle and that has really improved the look of the model compared to using the parts as supplied.

 

I am a bit puzzled by the cylinders. On the real thing, there was a considerable flat area between the cylinder and the bottom edge of the valance.

 

The top slidebar was also a bit lower than it is on the model, being just above the upper step on the steps just behind the cylinder.

 

On the model, there is not really any flat area and the gap between the top slidebar and the bottom of the valance looks a bit too small. It may be that the cylinders are correct and it is the depth of the valance and the height of the steps that are wrong.

 

To my eyes, it looks as if the cylinders are either too big a diameter, or mounted too high up, rather than being too low down. So I wouldn't be looking to raise them any more. Again, it is hard to tell exactly what is wrong without measuring and comparing to drawings but something is just a little bit adrift there and I wonder if there is any merit in investigating what it is before you go much further.

I do wonder if this is partly due to DJH using the same parts for several models back then? From memory, the old B16/A8/H1 kits shared a lot of components, particularly the chassis.

 

Mark

[30368]

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I am a bit puzzled by the cylinders.

 

Thanks re- the boiler, it looks much better I agree.

I agree, the flat area is reduced on the model, partially due, I think, to the deeper than prototype, running plate valance. I planned to investigate when I have sorted out the bogie rotation issue. I have a few ideas to check out.

 

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Michael Edge]

The cylinders could well be too big, bearing in mind that DJH will have put them at least 1mm too far out on each side. I've never built one of these B16 kits but have scratchbuilt them before - bogie swing is always a big problem with 3 cylinder NER locos.

[Michael Edge]

B16 cylinders should be at 6'8" centres, the outside should be only fractionally outside the footplate width. Looking at the GA plan view the bogie wouldn't move very far before the wheels hit the leading cylinder covers, 00 gauge does give a lot more room but I might still have to reduce the inside of the cylinders a bit. The trailing bogie wheels don't need to move so far but they have more room anyway.

[t-b-g]

I raised the matter as I was considering whether smaller diameter cylinders might give you a better chance with the bogie than oversized ones.

 

Slightly smaller cylinders, set at the correct height, might, or might not, give more clearance behind them for the bogie wheels.

 

I have been known to cheat and remove material from the inside edge of cylinders. You can fool the eye by shaping what is left carefully. If it looks like a round bottom edge, rather than a circle with a quadrant cut out of it, you can get away with quite a lot!

[30368]

Guys,

 

I can't thank you enough for all the advice and tips, really appreciated.

 

Actions so far:

1. I have removed material from the cylinder front covers so that the front bogie wheels have more room.

2. I have used a 10BA hex headed machined screw to secure the connecting rod to the crosshead. This has been reduced to improve clearance with the trailing bogie wheels, however, I have ordered 10BA Csk headed screws (run out my usual order to Eileens Emp is no longer poss) which will increase clearance still further.

3. I have reamed out the bogie axle ways, these were a bit claggy and prevented smooth running of the bogie.

BUT....

I have just checked bogie wheel back to back and they were some way out! I my goodness, I am ashamed as a former loco/rolling stock engineer how could I miss that!

 

The chassis now runs around my tightest curves with very few problems, some sparking between crosshead and trailing bogie wheel but not enough to stop progress, however more clearance is on the way. The secondhand driver (£24) were not all insulated so a live chassis was the result and this does create additional problems.

 

I have also reduced the size of the crosshead to make it a little closer to prototype. I am fairly happy with the cylinder diameter and hight but will look into the flat portion issue already discussed.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[30368]

4 hours ago, mikemeg said:

Long while ago Richard; magical days in those great 'cathedrals' dedicated to the steam locomotive; the locomotive sheds of the old North Eastern.

 

Yes Mike, totally agree with your sentiments.

I recall a Sunday visit to York shed in 1963, early in the morning. There were over 100 loco's on shed that day I recall lots of A1's and V2's but also Part 2 and 3 B16's. It was simply wonderful. I did not have to bunk sheds by then since I worked for the firm and just wrote to the NER General Manager and received permits. I recall asking a fitter where I could get breakfast, I was after all, a growing lad. He took me over to the canteen across the road from the shed and what a great fry-up I had for one and sixpence!

 

When I have taken my grandchildren to the Railway Museum they can hardly believe that the building was this huge 4 turntable mucky steam shed and that I visited it back then. A very different world!

 

Taking shape nicely.

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Edited March 6, 2023 by 30368

[sjp23480]

Just in case anyone fancies having a go, a part built one just got listed on ebay.

 

[John Tomlinson]

5 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Just in case anyone fancies having a go, a part built one just got listed on ebay.

 

 

Looks like a Part 2 or 3 loco, as rebuilt by Gresley or Thompson respectively.

 

John.

[Michael Edge]

The cylinder’s definitely look too low in that last photo. The piston rod should be pointing at the driving axle centre, it is well below in this photo.

[Michael Edge]

I don’t know where that rogue apostrophe came from! Certainly not from me.

[30368]

6 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

The cylinder’s definitely look too low in that last photo.

 

Hi Michael,

 

Yes they are low, there is a nut temporarily locating the boiler to the running plate so the plate is displaced by the thickness of the nut. Well spotted.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Keith Turbutt]

On 06/03/2023 at 12:21, mikemeg said:

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

Lovely atmospheric photo. Can you tell us a bit more about it ie which shed was it ?

I did 'bunk' Old Oak a couple of times and I recall that the 4 turntables were boarded over so you could walk across them while the turntable was rotating.

 

I did get to Tyne Dock as part of an LCGB coach trip to the NE but not until July 1966. Photos attached of a Q6 coming into the roofless shed. 

 

Keith

 

[mikemeg]

Keith,

 

Firstly, apologies to Richard for causing a 'digression' on his thread.

 

The shed shown in the posting, above, was Hull Dairycoates. Until its rebuilding, in 1955/56, this shed boasted six turntables all within a single building. That said, this building was actually built in several stages, being added to as the locomotive allocation increased.

 

When we knew this place, after the 1955/56 rebuilding, there were two turntables within the shed itself and two further turntables, one each end, outside the shed. Additionally, there was also a four road 'dead end' straight shed. We knew it in the late fifties/early sixties and it was quite a place! We would bunk around this shed most Sunday afternoons and on many evenings, so we must have 'gone round' the shed several hundred times.

 

This place never, ever, lost its fascination, though latterly ( c1964 / 65 ), watching the scrap lines grow ever longer, we stopped going, from then simply to rely on the memories and the wealth of photographs. Now, though the shed building still stands, there is little evidence that this was ever the North Eastern's largest loco shed.

 

I do have quite a few photos of this place so here are a couple more. Just look at the shafts of light coming through the soot stained roof lights; you could cut them with a knife as they pierced the stygian, smoke filled gloom.

 

On a Sunday, when the locomotives had their day off, all was silence; there would be no sound save for the faint hiss of steam, the steady drip, drip of water and oil and the occasional flapping of pigeons up in the roof beams. 

 

As Richard said, this was a very different world, but one which many of us felt privileged to have seen.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by mikemeg

[Keith Turbutt]

Thanks Mike for the further photos and your memories. Also I'd like to add my apologies for the digression on Richard's thread which is one I always enjoy reading.