RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted October 31, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2009 How can the early (incorrect) Coalfish be distinguished when buying online, did they have a different catalogue number? Thanks They did have different numbers (though I'm afraid I dont know what they were off hand). The other differences were that the sides were higher, had a square top, and iirc had more ribs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
new puritan Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 They did have different numbers (though I'm afraid I dont know what they were off hand). The other differences were that the sides were higher, had a square top, and iirc had more ribs. Current version is R6216B and R6225B for the 3 pack. Original version R6216/R6225, now very cheap if you see them ... are useful as you can use the chassis under the S Kits MH001C body to represent MHA394500-396165. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted October 31, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2009 Had a good look at both the MBA and MCA at the Stroud show today: Seeing it in the flesh pretty much confirms what has been said in this thread, The bogies are very wrong, colour looks rather iffy (much too pink) though tbh when weathering it should be a good base for older dirty wagons.), buffers look aweful. As for the underframe ribs, it depends what hight you look at your layout from (as if you look from eyelevel it looks very poor, but when looking from above it looks ok). The chassis ribs look pretty easy to fix with some ten tho evergreen strip and a chopper (though matching the paint shade is going to be very difficult!) My thinking is that it could be made into a slightly better model, fitting new bogies and buffers and rebuilding the underframe ribs (+ a coat of paint). For the time being Im not to fussed, will either go down the Hurst route or if that dosnt come about wait and see if Bachmann announce it in January (which wouldnt supprise me given they have the MBA and MDA...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I'm waiting for the Farish N versions of these - due around Christmas according to Bachmann with the OO ones due in the new year. Its a shame the Dapol version isnt up to scratch, they were due to do them in N as well. At the N gauge show I did overheard someone from Bachmann discussing Dapol's plans with a customer, and from what I heard Dapol couldnt get any plans for the model so were using photographs, which might explain why (especially the underframe detail) its not quite up to scratch. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Maybe it's just me but given the level of critism of Dapol's valiant step into modern RTR to give us another previously not nodelled prototype - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they just turned around and said "well sod you lot - we'll not bother in future" and deny us some of the other stuff they had planned. Coming from an era when the best we had was "magnahesion" and the original Hornby Class 08 - which only looked like an 08 'cos it had 6 wheels ! I feel the detractors out their should cut Dapol some slack - what does it matter that the 3rd rib on the 9th flange, etc etc is missing - treat their version of the MBA / MCA as a slightly different prototype and have some fun in this hobby - we dismiss the efforts of others at our peril because if they stop doing it we have nothing - especially those of us that don't have huge amounts of spare time (yet) to be building kits, etc... Southernman46 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Maybe it's just me but given the level of critism of Dapol's valiant step into modern RTR to give us another previously not nodelled prototype - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they just turned around and said "well sod you lot - we'll not bother in future" and deny us some of the other stuff they had planned. Unfortunately I'm begining to believe that NOT having further releases from Dapol might actually be a good thing. It looks like we arn't going to see an MCA/MDA from Bachmann because Dapol is already in the market, and presumably Bachmann believes potential sales will be reduced, so what else could they 'block' by being first with a poor attempt. Coming from an era when the best we had was "magnahesion" and the original Hornby Class 08 - which only looked like an 08 'cos it had 6 wheels The problem is we are no longer in that era, what was acceptable when that model was brought out 40+ years ago, wasn't acceptable 20 years ago, and certainly isn't now. ! I feel the detractors out their should cut Dapol some slack - what does it matter that the 3rd rib on the 9th flange, etc etc is missing - treat their version of the MBA / MCA as a slightly different prototype and have some fun in this hobby - we dismiss the efforts of others at our peril because if they stop doing it we have nothing - especially those of us that don't have huge amounts of spare time (yet) to be building kits, etc... Why should we cut Dapol some slack, they want our hard earned money, and therefore I expect them to have earnt it. Bachmann have shown pre-production shots of their equivilent wagon, which seem to show that it can be done right. Jon 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted November 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2009 Maybe it's just me but given the level of critism of Dapol's valiant step into modern RTR to give us another previously not nodelled prototype - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they just turned around and said "well sod you lot - we'll not bother in future" and deny us some of the other stuff they had planned. Unfortunately I'm begining to believe that NOT having further releases from Dapol might actually be a good thing. It looks like we arn't going to see an MCA/MDA from Bachmann because Dapol is already in the market' date=' and presumably Bachmann believes potential sales will be reduced, so what else could they 'block' by being first with a poor attempt[/quote']. Think you have that spot on there Jon, I can certainly think of times where both kit manufaturers and other RTR companies have canned a project which would have resulted in a much better quality model because another company has got their first with something that is not accurate. In this case I think its fair to say with a high degree of certanty that the MCA/MDA would have been brought out by Bachmann if the Dapol model hadnt been announced, so its hardly that the wagon would not have appeared RTR. ! I feel the detractors out their should cut Dapol some slack - what does it matter that the 3rd rib on the 9th flange, etc etc is missing - treat their version of the MBA / MCA as a slightly different prototype and have some fun in this hobby - Southernman46 That maybe ok for you, but there are a lot of us who are looking to model the prototype accuratly, and that is where we get our enjoyment. I certainly have no interest in the slightest of going round running pretend fictional wagons..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rs4 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Well, I may have jumped the gun [perhaps I am impatient ?], but I do think having Dapol doing modern OO stuff is a huge benefit. FEA, KTA, Silver bullet, Thumper etc...... Videos of my 10 MCAs in action: Regards Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2009 There are certainly some areas where "things could be better" but they do look like MCAs and when running round on a train, really look like MCAs - often creating a good model railway is not only about the detail on rolling stock but the ambience of the environment, and when watching 10 of these roll around Widnes behind a 60 they looked like a rake of MCAs. Would I use them as a basis for a P4 model ? - musing this at the moment. I would like manufacturers to get things right and we should encourage them to do so - I'm not sure some of the comments in this thread could be classified as any form of encouragement, and as I always say - if you can do it better then go and do so, then you can have my business, too many comments sound like "Angry of Telford" (this doesn't force anyone to buy anything they don't like, nor does it stop people pointing out mistakes, but if we were to start criticising each others layouts in a similar vein there would be quite a few upset people - imagine if I said "The "Wibenbury Vine Beat" is so bad they should take up a new hobby, and the hobby would be better without them" as "constructive criticism" of someones layout.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cku26OZ6lA 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 There are certainly some areas where "things could be better" but they do look like MCAs and when running round on a train, really look like MCAs - often creating a good model railway is not only about the detail on rolling stock but the ambience of the environment, and when watching 10 of these roll around Widnes behind a 60 they looked like a rake of MCAs. Would I use them as a basis for a P4 model ? - musing this at the moment. Using the Three foot viewing rule and watching the posted video, quite a few people would be "reasonably content" or, dare I say it, "happy" with these models, the MBA pictures on the Bachmann site are very nice and I 'can' understand the dismay being posted here by a section of the modelling community, Horses for Courses of course The price for the Dapol MBA's is currently Approx ??18.00 with most of the larger mailorder houses and advertisers in the Mags. the possible posted price for the Bachmann is ??20.25 and Will rise I suspect when the final product arrives .. mainly due to the fact that VAT is due to rise on 1st Jan back to 17.5% ... making the MBA's a minimum of ??21.00 List and possibly greater ... in the end , as Beast is basically alluding to " you have a choice, you pays your money, you enjoy your purchase " I would like manufacturers to get things right and we should encourage them to do so - I'm not sure some of the comments in this thread could be classified as any form of encouragement, and as I always say - if you can do it better then go and do so, then you can have my business, too many comments sound like "Angry of Telford" (this doesn't force anyone to buy anything they don't like, nor does it stop people pointing out mistakes, but if we were to start criticising each others layouts in a similar vein there would be quite a few upset people - imagine if I said "The "Wibenbury Vine Beat" is so bad they should take up a new hobby, and the hobby would be better without them" as "constructive criticism" of someones layout.) I whole hartedly aggree with the above statement .. there are ways of saying things and then there are ways of saying things .... Finnaly, as to will or won't Bachmann will produce a MCA/MDA model to go with the forthcoming MBA and MOA, I supose if there was enough of a demand for the higher detailed and priced item, don't discount it, making money is making money after all . However unless MCA/MDA's going to replace the MOA model then expect it to be a good few years away yet . Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Ok here are two more comparison photos. And no I'm not trying to devalue Dapols efforts in any way just presenting the community with the facts. View of ends Dapol on left, Hurst Models on right Birds eye view of both wagon ends Dapol left, Hurst right Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Well, I may have jumped the gun [perhaps I am impatient ?], but I do think having Dapol doing modern OO stuff is a huge benefit. FEA, KTA, Silver bullet, Thumper etc...... The KTA is quite nice, I have minor quibbles with the ferry rams horns and handbrake wheel being too big, but I assume that's to make them more robust, and I can easily do something about that, and the bogies don't seem quite right, but overall not bad. The FEA as produced is very nice indeed, but it was heading for disaster at one point, to their credit Dapol did respond to the critisism and made changes before production. The silver bullet isn't out yet, so I'm not sure it's really a good example, the test shots look like a really nice body, although I wait and see what the bogies, buffers and platforms end up looking like. The Grampus, nice body shame about the chassis. All of these models have good parts, the problem is they have all had bad parts as well, Dapol always seem rush the job. A certain Telfordian seemed to think that getting it right didn't cost more than getting it wrong, I know that's not right, getting it right does cost more and take longer. Dapol seem to be getting to 90% and then stopping, I don't expect them to get to 99.999% because at some point you do have a diminishing return on effort, but they need to get nearer to 99% before they stop. Someone has suggested that the Bachmann one will be about three quid more, and not out until next year, well that sound about right, 15% more effort to get a product thats a lot better seems a pretty good deal to me. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 thanks for the pics, the Dapol ones look ok to me. Certainly much better than not having them, not being a kit builder! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Well at least that'll mean there'll be more Flangeway Mermaids for the rest of us then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2009 Couple of MBA pics .. they look far more at home in our scrapyard. (the loaded one is a Hurst kit) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Are they supposed to be the same wagon with the same bogies Dave or are they slightly different diagrams? Apart from the bogies the Hurst one looks a lot lower. Maybe it's just me but given the level of critism of Dapol's valiant step into modern RTR to give us another previously not nodelled prototype - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they just turned around and said "well sod you lot - we'll not bother in future" and deny us some of the other stuff they had planned. Coming from an era when the best we had was "magnahesion" and the original Hornby Class 08 - which only looked like an 08 'cos it had 6 wheels ! I feel the detractors out their should cut Dapol some slack - what does it matter that the 3rd rib on the 9th flange, etc etc is missing - treat their version of the MBA / MCA as a slightly different prototype and have some fun in this hobby - we dismiss the efforts of others at our peril because if they stop doing it we have nothing - especially those of us that don't have huge amounts of spare time (yet) to be building kits, etc... Southernman46 I don't understand why these 'back in the day we only had a lump of coal to play with' type comments come up whenever someone criticises a detail. If its fine for you then great, buy one. But as long as the criticism is valid and constructive with some pictorial evidence (if possible) then its fine. Its more insulting to push your idea of fun onto someone who may enjoy different aspects of the hobby like getting the prototype as correctly modelled as possible. Dapol, Hornby etc are all commercial companies, if they stay or leave modern image 00 it'll be the sales and not the hurt feeling that would do it. Though phrasing it nicely when criticising does help . Well at least that'll mean there'll be more Flangeway Mermaids for the rest of us then Another wagon with an obvious flaw - wrong w-irons. Correctable yes, annoying when pictures would disprove it yes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 2, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2009 Hi Craig, yes they are the same wagon, the most obvious differences are the bogies and the height, although the height is only obvious when the rakes are mixed and matched, a full rake of one or the other would be ok. Not sure which is correct though, don't assume it's the Hurst one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Finally got my two today , initial reactions are as agreed with beast66606 they do indeed look like MCA's when gonig around on a train! The bogies look ok when viewed from a distance but when you view them close up its more apprently that theyre incorrect. The bogies are the only thing really that let down what is an otherwise good model! Quality control was lacking on one of my wagons are it frequently derailed, but a loosen of a srew later and it runs fine! getting back to the bogies the middle section where the suspension etc are comes down too far as it should only come down level with the lower parts of the wheels, otherwise its a good effort, but also the wheels are incorrect, and if my eyesight isnt deceiving me it should have an actual "rim", whereas the wheel supllied looks very flat in appearance, small issue I know but because so much of the wheel is in view you notice this! ( well I do ), otherwise a good product from Dapol minor detail issues aside. NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 yep, got my pair yesterday and they look the part behind a 60. Now to add another 4-8 and decide on a load? where / what are the acrap loads you have used in yours Beast? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 3, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2009 yep, got my pair yesterday and they look the part behind a 60. Now to add another 4-8 and decide on a load? where / what are the acrap loads you have used in yours Beast? The loads are some scrap I bought from ebay a good while ago, basically a bloke cuts up all his left over sprues, bits etc. and paints them rusty, then sells them by weight, I bought a good healthy load whilst I could, the scrap cubes come from the same place - can't remember where I'm afraid, it was a few years back. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Returning to this topic, been thinking of the bogies, Looks as though perhaps S kits ones/ Intercity Models will be a good replacement, whichevers the best... NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Is it me or does the Dapol version simply look a bit toy-like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Is it me or does the Dapol version simply look a bit toy-like? Looks fine on the track behind a loco, will look even better loaded and weathered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Some parts do look plasticy, but as piemanlarger said they wont be so toy like once theyre weathered and have a load in them. The main toy like features are the bogies, and chunky handwheels, plus all the piping underneath is thick looking so will probably replace this with fine wire. Alternatively with the bogies a coat of matt black could help with appearance. is it me or are the bufferes supplied a tad on the small side??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 What exactly is the problem with the bogies? I'm not in the market for any of these wagons as they are no use on Blacklade and my involvement with any club project may be limited . However I can't make out whether people say saying "they are the wrong type of bogie" or whether people feel they're the right type of bogie but inadequetely rendered Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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