RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted November 4, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2009 What exactly is the problem with the bogies? I'm not in the market for any of these wagons as they are no use on Blacklade and my involvement with any club project may be limited . However I can't make out whether people say saying "they are the wrong type of bogie" or whether people feel they're the right type of bogie but inadequetely rendered Dapol have just made a complete hash of it, The prototype bogie is cast and has a straight top, whereas the Dapol representation is fabricated and has a round top Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted November 4, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 4, 2009 I took this picture when they were relaying the track in Leyland. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 What exactly is the problem with the bogies? I'm not in the market for any of these wagons as they are no use on Blacklade and my involvement with any club project may be limited . However I can't make out whether people say saying "they are the wrong type of bogie" or whether people feel they're the right type of bogie but inadequetely rendered I'm not really sure how to answer that in the context of your question, they don't look particularly like any particular other style of bogie (at least ones used in this country) so I guess i'd have to go with the latter... Compare Beast's rather useful side-on shot from earlier in the thread (Hurst to the left, Dapol to the right): And the prototype: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 lol, the Bachmann 37 springs to mind! I think with out dought the boggies and some other bits are wrong for those that wish to model everything as accuratley as possible. However, this at least gives those something to do, build new bogies! Those of us who are not so bothered will buy the wagons and watch them on our layouts. However, will anyone contact Dapol and offer help in correcting any further production models??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 4, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2009 However, will anyone contact Dapol and offer help in correcting any further production models??? I've supplied photos in the past and indicated I am happy to do so again - not much more I can do really, I have lots of detail photos of MBAs for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I've supplied photos in the past and indicated I am happy to do so again - not much more I can do really, I have lots of detail photos of MBAs for example. perhaps its a case then of Dapol realising if its close enough, most will buy the model (wagons) and sales will pay for the tooling etc. Thus going into extra expense of comparing / buying photos /plans etc was not worth the effort? Whatever, i for one are happy with the wagons for now, but will i be when the Bachmann one is out?? (Probably still will be!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 4, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2009 perhaps its a case then of Dapol realising if its close enough, most will buy the model (wagons) and sales will pay for the tooling etc. Thus going into extra expense of comparing / buying photos /plans etc was not worth the effort? Whatever, i for one are happy with the wagons for now, but will i be when the Bachmann one is out?? (Probably still will be!) I too am awaiting the Bachmann one ... maybe enquiring if any parts are available as spares too .. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 The Bachmann bogies look more correct and itd be a straight swap well hopefully anyway. Although Id like to see what the S kits and Intercity ones are like as well thus having a back up option. Just looking at them again by the looks of it the top could possibly be filed down to a more flat appearance, and looking at the photo the bottom could also be filed flat as well, well thats the theory Ive noticed that on the MCA "Outers" one end has the Swinghook coupling also, so continuing the Bachmann theory perhaps thier class 66 detailing pack would be useful as the safety bar(?) is missing as well. Although itd be for cosmetic use for me, id want something working to go with my working screwlinks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arran Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 HI All Im not getting into the detail argument, what crossed my mind was the damage that can be done to companies that rely on pre orders to justify there production, because things like this can affect that sort of ordering as you never know if your ordering a good model or not, so people will take the wait and see attitude which in the long run might be to your detriment. Regards Arran The Bachmann bogies look more correct and itd be a straight swap well hopefully anyway. Although Id like to see what the S kits and Intercity ones are like as well thus having a back up option. Just looking at them again by the looks of it the top could possibly be filed down to a more flat appearance, and looking at the photo the bottom could also be filed flat as well, well thats the theory Ive noticed that on the MCA "Outers" one end has the Swinghook coupling also, so continuing the Bachmann theory perhaps thier class 66 detailing pack would be useful as the safety bar(?) is missing as well. Although itd be for cosmetic use for me, id want something working to go with my working screwlinks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 my local model shop is reporting good sales of both types, so i think things will be ok. Onwards to the silver bullets! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Definatley Aaron, I mean the Dapol model is a good little model And im more than happy to detail it! just a couple of small minor issues that seem to marr this otherwise good wagon model, But I reckon Dapol should be thanked for entering the modern Wagon market! NL HI All Im not getting into the detail argument, what crossed my mind was the damage that can be done to companies that rely on pre orders to justify there production, because things like this can affect that sort of ordering as you never know if your ordering a good model or not, so people will take the wait and see attitude which in the long run might be to your detriment. Regards Arran Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Ive noticed that on the MCA "Outers" one end has the Swinghook coupling also, so continuing the Bachmann theory perhaps thier class 66 detailing pack would be useful as the safety bar(?) is missing as well. Although itd be for cosmetic use for me, id want something working to go with my working screwlinks. Setup info should be as follows if it helps: 500001 to 500060 are MBA-C with buffers and swingheads both ends 500061 to 500200 are MBA-B with buckeyes and no buffers. 500201 to 500240 are MCA-A with buffers and swingheads both ends 500241 to 500300 are MDA-A with buckeyes and no buffers. 500301 to 500350 are MOA-A with buffers and screwlinks 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Thanks for that, hopefully can get a decent rake now! Put my idea to the test regarding the bogies, They look a bit better in appearance but arn't 100% correct still but its an improvement! NL 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboy Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 bogies aside the underframe is still a work of fiction and even after filling in the strange oval holes in the main spine there is still a mass of missing detail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboy Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 ok so you replace the bogies and filled in the unwanted holes in the main spine, removed the strange frame structure and you have still to rebuild the entire underframe or you could wait for the Bachman MBA 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 What mass of missing Detail is this then? NL 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I see the new Hornby Railroad YGB Sealion is out http://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/images/Trains/wagons/r6372-ews-lwb-open-wagon.jpg Might not be perfectly accurate, but as always, when run in a train from a few feet away* it really looks the part. Hornby should be commended for supporting the modern modeller. Jon *eighty or so. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piemanlarger Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Thanks for that, hopefully can get a decent rake now! Put my idea to the test regarding the bogies, They look a bit better in appearance but arn't 100% correct still but its an improvement! NL Did you file them down, cut, or both? What mass of missing Detail is this then? NL could someone in the know list the missing detail so we can see if its worth adding? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Definatley Aaron, I mean the Dapol model is a good little model And im more than happy to detail it! just a couple of small minor issues that seem to marr this otherwise good wagon model, But I reckon Dapol should be thanked for entering the modern Wagon market! Nick, I think youve rather missed Arran's point, there are a number of Ltd editions out there that REQUIRE a decent level of pre-order before they get the go ahead (e.g. the Hornby mag Stove R and the container flat that I believe Arran is involved with). Pre-orders will effectively provide a bridging loan to the developers, but to get to minimum numbers, they need both the 'finescale' and 'its my trainset' buyers. If Dapol's half baked releases put the 'finescale' people off 'investing' in the new vehicle until after it's been produced, how many new projects won't get to minimum numbers and therefore never happen at all? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 could someone in the know list the missing detail so we can see if its worth adding? I think that most people who care about such things, won't have actually bought one, so suggestions might be thin on the ground. I haven't yet seen one in the flesh, so I haven't yet made my mind up whether the body is redeamable if Dapol were to do the bogies properly. This crop from the Bachmann website shows their MBA brake gear, where Dapol seem to have 4 flat bars that run from side to side, Bachmann have the control levers for the air brake distributer. Bachmann seem to be including all of the plumbing down there as well. The body is much harder to tell from photographs, the top rail where the sides meet the ends seems to have been muddled, it should look lile a hinge (anyone know why the MBA/JNA are built like that?) should be easy to fix. The flange should be easy enough to add to the bottom ribs, although quite tedious to do, at least the paint match won't be critical if it's in shaddow. The big area of concerm for me, is the fabricated plates at the bottom of the ribs (circled on the Bachmann), the photo's of the Dapol don't seem to have captured that very well - which is why I'm waiting to see it in the flesh. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 5, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2009 I see the new Hornby Railroad YGB Sealion is out http://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/images/Trains/wagons/r6372-ews-lwb-open-wagon.jpg Might not be perfectly accurate, but as always, when run in a train from a few feet away* it really looks the part. Hornby should be commended for supporting the modern modeller. Jon *eighty or so. Not sure this posting really helps any points you might be making Jon. At the moment the MCA/MDA from Dapol is the only one available, in RTR form, this means that some people are going to use them, improved or otherwise, mocking those people that choose to do so does not actually improve the model and frankly is not something you should be doing. We spent a long time getting the MBAs (Hurst kits) done, at this moment we cannot spend the time to get a rake of Hurst MCA/MDAs done to the same standard, so, for the time being, we are "happy" (lose term) to use the Dapol ones - I assume this means Widnes is now not worth looking at in your opinion, never mind, if you think that close examination of the stock is important rather than the scene looking like a real railway then you probably wouldn't be too keen on some of the other stock anyway HOWEVER as I said in my first posting on the subject "Things could be better" - I am disappointed in the model myself. We offered assistance, and are not far away from the factory, cannot do more than that other than be saddened that we weren't involved and could have pointed out these faults at a much earlier stage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 in fact I think in some ways in contradicts what Jon has said, and I was merely stating my opinion, but I mean if anyone else is happy with this model then by all means thats fine, we all have different opinions, and Jon Thank you for helping out with the detailing issues as for me, it all adds to the fun, and isnt modelling about altering things adding X Y Z part or kit bashing etc??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
26power Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I would suggest that would be a very small part of sales if there are two suppliers making the same vehicle and one is "better" (ie more accurate) than the other and the price difference is relatively minor. ? For example, if you want some 4 wheel oil tankers (TTA) you can have either the Hornby (30 odd year old(?)) version or the more recent Bachmann one. ? Given the choice of these I would reckon most modellers would go for the Bachmann one. ? Might be a different story if you have a stock of Hornby ones already, and the time to do them up, but even then I think there would be plenty modellers "trading up". Cheers, 26power SNIP ? Thank you for helping out with the detailing issues as for me, it all adds to the fun, and isnt modelling about altering things adding X Y Z part or kit bashing etc??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I see the new Hornby Railroad YGB Sealion is out http://www.newmodell...-open-wagon.jpg Might not be perfectly accurate, but as always, when run in a train from a few feet away* it really looks the part. Hornby should be commended for supporting the modern modeller. Jon *eighty or so. However with a new Parkside 12' chassis and a repaint you can get an ex GW N32 Felix Pole mineral . Not sure its worth it in view of a rather finer rendition being available in the main range with a reasonable chassis , but I've done it with a cheap second hand one lying around (the SC and Cory versions are potentially accurate liveries) Whether a pseudo ex LNER 12 clasp brake underframe has any real use I don't know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I would suggest that would be a very small part of sales if there are two suppliers making the same vehicle and one is "better" (ie more accurate) than the other and the price difference is relatively minor. For example, if you want some 4 wheel oil tankers (TTA) you can have either the Hornby (30 odd year old(?)) version or the more recent Bachmann one. Given the choice of these I would reckon most modellers would go for the Bachmann one. Might be a different story if you have a stock of Hornby ones already, and the time to do them up, but even then I think there would be plenty modellers "trading up". Cheers, 26power Having been in that situation - if you want a twin walkway or other conversion and have bits in stock , it can be worth it. I reworked a new Railroad TTA - it happened to have the livery I needed and with a new data panel, etched walkway and reworked chassis the result was good. Cost ??3-50, as opposed to ??8 . By the time youve hacked the ends out for a bitumen tank (say) and resprayed the thing, the benefits of going Bachmann are starting to erode Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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