More model ideas

[McC]

For some direct comparison, here is our Irish Rail Unit in 3, 4, 6 car flavours, with our usual high spec, lighting, detailing, stay alive, etc, starting from £300 https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/railcar-class-22000-icr

[No Decorum]

I’d agree that the price of a loco plus coaches is a reasonable price. There are extras in an MU which don’t happen with coaches. That will be either through wiring and connectors or multiple DCC sockets. The latter are probably no longer viable because the cost of non-sound decoders have risen considerably. In addition, there can be additional speakers as well, so perhaps the MU will end up costing a bit more than an equivalent loco-hauled train.

 

Price is always a consideration but quality is (in my view) more important. Once models are out in the wild and shortcomings are revealed, I tend to avoid them. Shortcomings in liveries, difficulties in fitting speakers and decoders, gross inaccuracies and poor running are all turn offs. I should emphasise that I’m talking about all manufacturers, though some are very much worse than others. On the other hand, some models charm me from the outset. I have some models I would love to see happen but it’s remarkable just how often something is announced which turns out to be just what I wanted but hadn’t realised it.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

I get my evidence from actually looking at what young railway modellers are modelling and buying. RMweb is far from the only source of modelling. Many many young modellers primarily show their efforts on social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc) and those sources are full of evidence that a lot of young modellers want the pretty steam era stuff. I never claimed they are making full layouts using it (although many of them are using 3d printing and traditional modelling methods), but they are buying it which is what we are discussing here. Also many of the prolific CAD artists/3D modellers who are making steam era prototypes are young modellers. You only have to look at Rapido for that. Plus again, social media which is where a lot of the young 3d sellers show and sell their products.

 

Young people, i.e. those who grew up from the late 80s onwards, grew up with Thomas the Tank Engine and preserved railways. And now many of the volunteer on said railways. Steam is in their blood, as shown by the herculean effort to bring LSWR 563 back to life. That project was spearheaded by young people.

 

I'm nearly 35, and I model the Southern Railway. If I could I would model the 1830s! All my friends who are in model railways are of a similar age, and they mostly model pre-grouping. I used to be on a railway modelling Discord server where the vast majority of members were under 35, and basically none of them modelled anything after the steam era.

 

I cant imagine Discord or Social Media being a good place to measure who models what either. The general consensus from model manufacturers seems to be more of a trend towards BR Blue and Sectorisation taking over from transition era as most popular

[Fair Oak Junction]

1 minute ago, GordonC said:

I cant imagine Discord or Social Media being a good place to measure who models what either. The general consensus from model manufacturers seems to be more of a trend towards BR Blue and Sectorisation taking over from transition era as most popular

 

Why is Discord and Social media less of a good place to measure modelling than RMweb or any other model railway forum? Time moves on, and so do the places people use more.

[carefreeroz]

Fran, 

I'm no technical wizard. Just love model trains! I also can see and appreciate the efforts that go into bringing these products to market. I am pretty sure there will be a wide spectrum of opinion largely based on the size of people's wallets.. But since you have asked here's my pennies worth.

 

Personally i would pay for a 4 car set from you somewhere in the region of £450-£500 RRP for a 'sound fitted' all singing and dancing high quality model, which I know it would be from you guys. I guess a DCC Ready version of the same model, I would perhaps pitch at £350-£400 rrp. My thinking is perhaps £90-£100 per vehicle and obviously the extra premium for each vehicle on a sound fitted version (£20-£25)

 

Again, I must stress, thats based on what I can afford and what I would be happy to pay. Im sure many would wince at that price, but its just my opinion and personal circumstances.

 

Looking at the blue box manufacturer, who I do also admire, but their current RRPs of £550-£650 for an EMU 4 car set, really are eye watering...

 

Perhaps Accurascale should dip their toe into the DMU or EMU 2 car/3 car pool first just to test the waters on commercial viability....

 

 

[farren]

3 minutes ago, carefreeroz said:

Fran, 

I'm no technical wizard. Just love model trains! I also can see and appreciate the efforts that go into bringing these products to market. I am pretty sure there will be a wide spectrum of opinion largely based on the size of people's wallets.. But since you have asked here's my pennies worth.

 

Personally i would pay for a 4 car set from you somewhere in the region of £450-£500 RRP for a 'sound fitted' all singing and dancing high quality model, which I know it would be from you guys. I guess a DCC Ready version of the same model, I would perhaps pitch at £350-£400 rrp. My thinking is perhaps £90-£100 per vehicle and obviously the extra premium for each vehicle on a sound fitted version (£20-£25)

 

Again, I must stress, thats based on what I can afford and what I would be happy to pay. Im sure many would wince at that price, but its just my opinion and personal circumstances.

 

Looking at the blue box manufacturer, who I do also admire, but their current RRPs of £550-£650 for an EMU 4 car set, really are eye watering...

 

Perhaps Accurascale should dip their toe into the DMU or EMU 2 car/3 car pool first just to test the waters on commercial viability....

 

 

Another thing Accurascale has in it’s favour well two really, it’s early warning of models to be produced and it’s credit system, Bachmann says X is coming on the next boat from china and I have anything from a few weeks to couple of months to get £4-500 together.
Accurascale I have 12-18 months, I can then decide which I want and pay in manageable instalments. I have to say I have never had so many fully paid pri-orders in my life….

thinking about maybe the credit system is a bad thing! 
 

oh yes some Units would be nice, 

[GordonC]

17 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

Why is Discord and Social media less of a good place to measure modelling than RMweb or any other model railway forum? Time moves on, and so do the places people use more.

 

I wasn't comparing to RMweb or any other forum, just that a lot of modellers wont be online on forums or Social Media at all

[Fair Oak Junction]

1 minute ago, GordonC said:

 

I wasn't comparing to RMweb or any other forum, just that a lot of modellers wont be online on forums or Social Media at all

 

Of course but there is still more than enough evidence on there to show that young people, like all modellers, have a very diverse set of interests spanning all eras of rail history.

You have your opinion on it, and I have mine. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I shall continue to enjoy and celebrate the many many young modellers out there who are pushing forward the cause of steam era railways; buying the fantastic steam era models we have available to us now, creating beautiful models, creating fantastic 3d prints of pre-grouping locos/stock, industrial steam locos, narrow gauge steam, interesting and unique prototypes, and making them available for all to enjoy.

And as more young modellers enter the hobby, the percentage who use social media as their primary platform for showing and promoting their modelling will only increase.

[97406]

When I was into railway modelling in my teens in the 80s, I modelled the current scene as it was what I was interested in at the time. When I got back into modelling recently, I chose the same time period for reasons of nostalgia. I wonder how many other modellers do that and if I’m quite typical?

[WCML100]

5 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi Godfrey,

 

It is my understanding that a 5-WES has been laser scanned by another company, which seems pretty concrete about intentions there. 

 

As a matter of interest though, perhaps you guys could help us with something? It's not very scientific, but perhaps will spark a wider debate among modellers.

 

While we have lost two institutions in our hobby over the last week, (Hattons and Warley) we don't necessarily buy into the notion that the doom mongers have reported (even in the national media now!) that the hobby is "dying". Indeed, for someone like ourselves, we're growing thanks to your support, which is excellent.

 

However, young companies always have to be cautious, and get decisions right as they grow. 

 

The "large gap" in modern era modelling (very loose term, but let's say 70s-present) is 4 and 5 car multiple units such as the 5-WES etc. These represent a HUGE capital investment, over say a locomotive, and take a lot more development time due to researching 4 different vehicles, electronics between each car talking to each other, and you are less likely to sell more due to modellers being "loco-centric" in the main, and of course the higher RRP.

 

So, for the 5-WES, what do you think would be a fair RRP that you would be willing the pay, for a 5 car unit to the standards we aim for with all our models? The means working interior lights, all the detail, variations, motor hidden away, DC/DCC ready and DCC sound fitted, stay alives etc. 

 

Likewise, how much for a 4 car unit with the same spec, and say working raising and lowering pan (where applicable).

 

Knowing what you would be willing to pay, and how many you would buy would be interesting research for us to know. 

 

Spread the word and post below!

 

(also, this is not us committing to a 5-WES!)

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

 

Personally, with all of the bells and whistles - I’d reckon in this day and age a fair price would work out around £100 per car. 2 car = £200, 4 car = £400
 

+ around £100 for a sound fitted version on top of the price too…

[BVMR21]

39 minutes ago, GordonC said:

I wasn't comparing to RMweb or any other forum, just that a lot of modellers wont be online on forums or Social Media at all

Has to be said that younger modellers, with whom I have had interactions with, tend to be varied, wide variety of eras, etc. Many still going for the 1960s, some for anything pre-BR, some doing the aformetioned Blue and Grey period, and some going for Preservation themes, I do believe however it is not something that one can answer fully from one's own interactions alone, and that some fairly detailed research may well need to be conducted to see whether or not there is a general trend amongst modellers modelling certain periods etc.

[E100]

5 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

If it helps, circa 65% of our locos sold are DCC Sound fitted from the factory, to 35% DC/DCC ready.

 

I find this so interesting and yet completely unsurprising as well. I'd wager this is some way ahead of the more mainstream manufacturers.

 

2 hours ago, McC said:

For some direct comparison, here is our Irish Rail Unit in 3, 4, 6 car flavours, with our usual high spec, lighting, detailing, stay alive, etc, starting from £300 https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/railcar-class-22000-icr

All things taken into account these feel fairly priced though I would have to say they'd need to be perfect for me to bite in terms of location / era which is a challenge in the highlands of Scotland until relatively recently.

[Dorset33]

2 hours ago, McC said:

For some direct comparison, here is our Irish Rail Unit in 3, 4, 6 car flavours, with our usual high spec, lighting, detailing, stay alive, etc, starting from £300 https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/railcar-class-22000-icr

Based on those prices I’d be happy to purchase 6 units. 2 NSE, 1 Early  SWT, 2 later SWT & 1 x SWR

[XChris]

I have some Class 180’s and 175’s on order as a modern image modeller, and young(ish) modeller I think it’s an interesting thought of what I want to see and what I want to pay for it. 
 

Personally I model what I saw when I used to go train spotting and travel on trains, so for me 2010-2018 is my era so I’ll always enjoy seeing stuff that did run in that time period being made. There’s a big gap in the EMU market especially late 1990’s onwards in OO. We’ve seen some southern units being made and now I think we are beginning to see people dip the toe into other areas and eras (Dapol 323’s among others). I think the greatest market is for those units that have had the longest time in service. Immediately I’m struck by 313’s, 507/8’s, 319’s, 321’s, 365’s, 455’s as such the investment in tooling these models would mean that they cover 30+ years of service allowing for livery changes and maximum spread over eras to suit more modellers and regions. I do see the appeal for things such as Electrostars as with a good tooling suite it might be possible to make all the variations and thus make the most from an investment from the tooling. This doesn’t appeal to me personally as it’s not my region but how many more people would model it if the units were available? I think the phrase “Build it and they will come” feels appropriate for the Electrostar family. 
 

In terms of price I feel that £500 for a sound fitted 5 car is probably the top end of the budget, however if it’s all singing all dancing then people may squeeze the pockets for it and we know that Accurascale do all singing all dancing but the IRM models are all very competitively priced as well.

 

I’ll stop rambling now, all of the above is opinion and not fact 🤣

[rob D2]

I wouldn’t want to be accurascale on this one .

So many units , so many liveries, so many areas .

I saw one of those staedler FLIRTS today at Lowestoft , and was amazed that Hornby are modelling it I think. It’s very specific both in geography and time period .

 

I think the key will be the right unit , that lasted decades, with many liveries and hopefully got about a bit . That would tend to make me think of the BR blue and sector period . Price wise 4 car I’d say £400 & £50 , ie £450.  They’ll be a glass ceiling above which even the most avid “ I’ll bite your arm off merchant …” won’t venture .

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, disco1974 said:

I’d pay a £100 a coach.
 

The development costs must be massive considering all the coaches in a unit are different. The workload in a 5 car unit will be almost 5x developing a loco!

Only three types in a 5-Wes IIRC.

[GordonC]

One advantage of an older unit would be knowing all the liveries and tooling differences in their lifetime. For new units that just won't be known yet

[Growling]

6 hours ago, irvinest said:

If we get a Accurascale standard class 303 then put me down for 5-6 and would probably pay £100 per coach non sound and for a sound fitted 3x at unit £425.

Please please do it!

 

As units go it is the place to start. Such a classic beast. 

[BritishRail60062]

Can I propose a brand new Class 70? - For the win! 😂🤣.

 

Joking aside, I wouldn't say no to a tasty Class 33! 😉. I will leave that in your hands Fran and Co. 

[TomScrut]

11 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Knowing what you would be willing to pay, and how many you would buy would be interesting research for us to know. 

 

MUs I'd be interested in....

 

TPE 185 (would probably have two, or could be a good idea to do a 6 car one as two sets given thats how they spend a lot of time)

XC 220/221

Northern 195 (2 or 3 car)

Northern 170

LNER CAF tri mode (whatever that might be called)

 

I think a lot of what the price "should" be is depending on how you want to operate. For example...

 

I have a TPE 802 on pre order at about £405. That particular item is a "must have" for my layout however it is expensive for what I see as a good, but not brilliant, model. However, I will wait and see how cheap the Lumo 803 gets before I make a decision as to whether I buy that.

 

I would put the following into ones that I would probably pay top prices for*, say ranging from £300 for 2 car to £500 for 5 car. I paid almost £300 for a Bachmann 158 and that was about my limit I think.

 

TPE 185 (present day, maybe two of them)

XC 220/221

Northern 195 (2 or 3 car)

Northern 170 (current)

Northern 155 (current)

LNER CAF tri mode (assuming a short version was available)

 

*Not necessarily all of them as I'd struggle for space.

 

However, I'd wait for a bargain on anything that passes/passed through Yorkshire since 2019 really.

 

Something else to consider is how good they need to be. I think something which is on the good side of adequate (yet overpriced in this case) is the Hornby 80X. If something to that spec was to be available at around £300 for 5 car I think it would do well. Maybe that's not achievable however there's not much detail beyond mouldings.

 

The pricing for your ICR 22000 and the Revolution 180 (at early bird) are very pallatable IMO.

Edited January 15 by TomScrut

[BritishRail60062]

I would take a couple of the Class 185's for the happy times I had on them when I used to live in England until 2017. I would like the "Stained Glass" TPE livery please. 

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I saw one of those staedler FLIRTS today at Lowestoft , and was amazed that Hornby are modelling it I think. It’s very specific both in geography and time period

 

They'll get chance of the 231s for TFW too (one of the samples looked like it might already be in the works IIRC).

 

TBH, further to my post above, I'd not pay RRP for a 755 however I'd maybe extend my "region" down to Peterborough if I got a bargain on one as I think they are a cool looking thing. That does start getting dangerous though with Electrostars and Desiro Citys!

 

I think the 196 and 197 are good looking units which have good liveries already with a decent regional coverage to work with. Both work on/around the WCML, so plenty to partner with and then there's also quite a lot of TfW stuff too to pair with:

 

67/mk4

158

175

231?

 

Edited January 15 by TomScrut

[The Johnster]

 Not sure that I'm a typical modeller, or whatever that is when it's at home, but for me the prime reason for choosing a model is that it is correct for the area and period I model (South Wales' Tondu Valleys 1948-58).  The questions then are 'can I afford it?', then 'is it adequate in terms of detail and performance/can I live with it's inadequacies or work it up to adequacy' (in the case of Hornby 2721, no, even with Bachmann chassis and replaced chimney, dome, safety valve cover, new buffers, real coal, lamp irons, & cab glazing; the overlong bunker imposed itself upon my conciousness, so the loco had to go...).

 

So, let's assume somebody brought out a 2721 or an 1854 half-cab pannier for £250 without DCC, twice what the realistic market price is for such a model.  Would I be interested?  Presumably it would be pretty well detailed for that money, working inside motion, that sort of thing, but even if it wasn't, yes, I would, but cobbling the money together would be tough for this impoverished pensioner.

 

I"d contend that this principle applies equally to £400+ multiple units, though the 'can't find the cash' cut-off is different.  Stuff costs what it costs, there are plenty of hobbies far more expensive than ours, try sailing, and companies that can't keep a lid on overheads (I suspect that blue box are stuggling with this a bit) will soon become uncompetitive.

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

but for me the prime reason for choosing a model is that it is correct for the area and period I model (South Wales' Tondu Valleys 1948-58).  The questions then are 'can I afford it?', then 'is it adequate in terms of detail and performance/can I live with it's inadequacies or work it up to adequacy'

 

Thats something I was trying to allude to in my post above. If it is something that is region/time applicable to me then I will probably end up with it. The key thing is more the stuff I will bend the rules for, either because its cool or because its a bargain. I think the issue for the manufacturers is understanding the latter aspect of it as that will probably account for the sales that make the whole thing viable.

[Godfrey Glyn]

Thank you so much Fran for your questions which have clearly started an interesting discussion. That you did engage with us is what we have come to expect and appreciate as modellers and customers.

I have always been a fan of the 5WES and in terms of design I consider them to be one of the very best designed EMUs that has been produced in this country. They looked good and were comfortable to ride in as a passenger. I hasten to add that I have absolutely no knowledge regarding their technical strengths or weaknesses! As mentioned by Dunsignalling above, I think there are just three types of coach in the five car set which could make its selection cheaper than five very different coaches ( happy or perhaps sad to be told that I am wrong!).

Regarding price I think your Irish Multiple Units are very reasonably priced for what they are and I am making a totally  uneducated guess that sales of a Southern EMU might even be greater than your Irish units . Very few of us can afford to buy dozens of 5WESs at those prices but looking at the numbers of your wagons running behind your Class 37s on YouTube videos and at exhibitions I suspect that there are more out there willing to pay for top notch models than most of us appreciate. You produce top notch models at prices that a lot of us consider to be fair prices, I have proved that to myself by the number of Class 55s and 37s that have arrived at my house, either direct from you or via my local excellent shop in Alton. So in short, if you produced the 5WES at the sort of proportional prices that you charge for your Irish units, I would be planning a new layout and saving the pounds in anticipation of their release!

many thanks Fran

 

Godfrey

Edited January 15 by Godfrey Glyn