The Night Mail

[Oldddudders]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Founded in 1884, its members played a significant role in the founding of the Labour Representation Committee in 1900 and from that the Labour Party. It also played a large role in the founding of the London School of Economics in 1895. Early members included George Bernard Shaw and Beatrice and Sidney Webb; all highly critical of Marx. It is currently an organisation affiliated to the Labour Party and was a significant influence on 'New Labour'. 

 

Hardly a sinister organisation, unless your definition of sinister is anything to the sinister of Genghis Khan.

Late first-wife Deb's father Elliott Miller was Convenor for the Central London Branch. Following her accident in September 2008, Deb got a card from Dianne Hayter, sometime chair of that branch, who was about to open the Labour Party Conference, in a difficult period.  For a couple of Christmases we had cards from the House of Lords, as Dianne was in 2010 made Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town. 

 

Beatrice Webb house is in the Abinger- Holmbury St Mary area in leafy Surrey. In the early '60s it was served by bus 412, from Dorking North Station. In 1961 I travelled from Wadebridge to Bodmin North. After the pannier had run round, I talked to the driver, and on telling him I was from Surrey, he asked whether I knew anything about getting to Beatrice Webb House, where he was booked on a course. I was delighted to tell what I knew. Not every 12-y-o gets a chance to be that helpful!

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

  Momma Bear had a DNR - I’ve no idea if they actually asked her though

 

Both my parents and MiL had DNRs and I think that when the time comes, i.e., I know I am on the way out, I may well do the same. Which triggers the thought, how much further down that road is assisted suicide?

Sorry to raise yet another cheery little topic.

I'm off to the shed now to cheer myself up.

 

Dave 

[Dave Hunt]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Founded in 1884, its members played a significant role in the founding of the Labour Representation Committee in 1900 and from that the Labour Party. It also played a large role in the founding of the London School of Economics in 1895. Early members included George Bernard Shaw and Beatrice and Sidney Webb; all highly critical of Marx. It is currently an organisation affiliated to the Labour Party and was a significant influence on 'New Labour'. 

 

Hardly a sinister organisation, unless your definition of sinister is anything to the sinister of Genghis Khan.

 

An uncle of mine was a member and he was one of the most open, honest and decent men I have ever known. He never proselytised his beliefs and providing they were not horrific he respected those of others.

 

Dave

[monkeysarefun]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

A 38 revolver. 

 

This used to be standard police issue here.  Then in 1995  there was an incident in Crescent Head on the north coast where two police called to a domestic incident discovered that they had arrived at a house where the occupant was armed with a Ruger hunting rifle (this tragically was just before the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania that led to weapons like that being removed from the community). 

 

They were out-gunned and tragically  both were fatally shot. This incident directly led to a commision of enquiry  which established that the police needed greater workplace protection and so were up-gunned to Glocks.

 

Edited May 1 by monkeysarefun

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

My baddie finger has just slipped uncontrollably, and hit the keyboard.

 

The pain is unbearable (for my wallet).

 

However, it will definitely ease tomorrow when the new, bigger better bandsaw arrives....

 

Lucky Nyda is still away!🤣

 

Are you sure you have enough fingers to safely use such a fearsome device?

 

Just askin'...

 

[iL Dottore]

6 hours ago, bbishop said:

Shouldn't your end-stage patients have had DNARs?

 

I've got a fair number back.  I don't keep stats., but in the last 24 months, two back, one dead several hours, one probably already dead when he hit the floor.  It does help that I look after a defib and oxygen.

One would have thought so. But quite a few doctors were most reluctant to sign DNR orders, even for the sickest of patients (I have one story to tell you, Bill, about a DNR order on an end-stage oncology patient - we can keep it for our next meet-up).

 

Mind you, this was the 70s.

 

I've always thought it bizarre that we would end a dog's suffering when nothing more can be done, but not a human's...

[Happy Hippo]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Are you sure you have enough fingers to safely use such a fearsome device?

 

Just askin'...

 

I've still got all my toes intact🤣.

 

[iL Dottore]

6 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Although I know my first response training would kick in if the situation arose, I could not do it on a regular basis, as eventually, I'd end up a hopeless mess as I don't think I could put the incidents behind me and move on.

You approach things as "a job to be done". When I first started (many, many decades ago) I was told that one of the worst things is to feel sorry for whomever you are treating. By feeling sorry for someone you loose that dispassionate objectivity which is so necessary for assessing and treating patients. You go in, do the job you are trained to do and then move on. Dwelling on things is not only bad for one's psyche, but also prevents dispassionate assessment that turns events into valuable experience.

5 hours ago, bbishop said:

One needs a black sense of humour.  This can sometimes offend "civilians" but is one of our coping mechanisms.  So we were told not to attend the "several hours dead" with a laconic 'he's sitting in the smallest room'.  Then the two CFRs had to comfort the student paramedic who had just seen her first dead body.

Not only that, but one has a lot of fun telling "war stories" (also a coping mechanism) - but again something NOT for outsiders.

Sometimes, when I, my GP friend and my radiologist friend get together we start telling stories - but are promptly told to "cut it out" by the civvies around the table (basically our SWMBOs)

4 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I think that dark humour as a mental defence mechanism is widespread in the medical profession, police force, the armed forces and anyone else whose daily life is likely to bring them into close contact with the possibility or actuality of danger, injury, suffering and even death. Once someone is immersed in such a scenario, though, I think that they tend also to indulge in the sort of banter that can surprise outsiders and often make them think that such people don’t really like each other or get on together whereas the truth is just the opposite.

 

Dave

Definitely.

4 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

My one attempt at CPR was not only unsuccessful but extremely tiring. Myself and a colleague tried for about twenty minutes to revive someone before the emergency services arrived, taking it in turns, and by the time we stopped were both physically very tired.

 

Dave

The longest I have done CPR for was about 35 minutes in a back of an ambulance that got stuck in a traffic jam (eventually the police had to order some drivers to pull over or be arrested). Needless to say, the patient didn't make it, poor sod.

 

Finally, @br2975's comments once again reinforces and emphasizes how badly the UK treats those who puts themselves into harm's way for the good of the country. The US has many faults, but you can't help but admire the esteem and respect they hold their military veterans and others who put themselves in harm's (even though, at times, how this is executed leaves much to be desired).

 

As others have mentioned, things would certainly be very different if - suddenly - little junior career politician was called up...

[bbishop]

39 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

One would have thought so. But quite a few doctors were most reluctant to sign DNR orders, even for the sickest of patients (I have one story to tell you, Bill, about a DNR order on an end-stage oncology patient - we can keep it for our next meet-up).

 

Mind you, this was the 70s.

 

I've always thought it bizarre that we would end a dog's suffering when nothing more can be done, but not a human's...

Or when there is a DNAR, but it's locked in the safe and the manager took the keys home. 

[Happy Hippo]

15 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

The US has many faults, but you can't help but admire the esteem and respect they hold their military veterans and others who put themselves in harm's (even though, at times, how this is executed leaves much to be desired).

This has not always been the case and I remember the contempt that a lot of American citizens held for the Vietnam veterans on their return.  And we have to remember that many of those troops were not regular volunteers but conscripts.

 

The Americans can blow hot and cold over certain issues, and  their veterans and serving military personnel are treated with much more respect, sometimes bordering on reverence, which is more than the case in the UK, although it is improving.

 

One of the biggest issues facing service and ex service personnel are mental health issues.  I have no doubt that they have always been there in the aftermath of past conflicts, but it is far easier for those involved in regular warfare, where there are 'rules' that are obeyed and since the whole of the Country's armed forces are involved, you are all in it together.  Many people do not realise that the trench warfare of WWI was not a case of everyone spending 4 years in a mud filled trench, but regular troop rotations, ensuring that time on the front line was limited.  This ensured that fitness and health were not overly compromised.

 

Compare that with fighting irregular forces who have no rules and are quite happy to disguise themselves as civilians, use the same civilians as protective cover, use booby traps and the like and will kill both military and even their own civilian population quite indiscriminately, if it suits their purpose. Those troops who are 'in theatre' for around 6 months with little or no let up, come away totally frazzled.  Two or three tours like that in a 3 year period eventually takes its toll.

 

I totally agree with you point about remembering that you are doing a job and to do it and then move on so you don't get involved. So, for instance, I have no issues with shooting vermin, as it is a necessary, although some people don't see it that way.  But many escape, because I only shoot what I know is going to be dead after I pull the trigger. 

 

I can get very angry when I read of irresponsible idiots who go out with catapults, crossbows and air rifles, and decide to take potshots at non pest species.  Especially when they invariably seriously wound the poor creature.

 

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, Hroth said:

I hear that one of the police officers injured yesterday spent hours in surgery having her arm repaired.  Her hand was almost severed.

 

There is no excuse, mental health or otherwise, for this sort of attack.

 

Sadly such incidents will continue to occur, mainly due to mental health problems.  From the description of the injuries by Sir Mark Rowley I would guess that the first two officers on the scene tried to take the sword off him.  I actually dealt with a incident like this in Huddersfield in 1994 when a disturbed man was roaming around the town centre waving a Samurai sword.  We had just got body armour but used the standard procedure that we had all been taught.  Three officers equipped with Nato helmets and long shields, both readily available, squashed him against a wall. A fourth officer was then able to take the sword from him  safely.  The heart warming thing was that the officers then sat next to him and calmed him down and helped him to take his medication. 

 

Jamie 

Edited May 1 by jamie92208

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Both my parents and MiL had DNRs and I think that when the time comes, i.e., I know I am on the way out, I may well do the same. Which triggers the thought, how much further down that road is assisted suicide?

Sorry to raise yet another cheery little topic.

I'm off to the shed now to cheer myself up.

 

Dave 

The subject of assisted suicide was covered rather well (we thought) in the recent C4 drama "True Love".  It presented the whole issue quite fairly - unlike many dramas where the writer clearly has an agenda which is laid on with a trowel - starting from a simple premise that no-one wanted to grow frail and dependent on others, but didn't shy away from the legal difficulties and possible situations where the vulnerable might be exploited.

[br2975]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Sadly such incidents will continue to occur, mainly due to mental health problems.  From the description of the injuries by Sir Mark Rowley I would guess that the first two officers on the scene tried to take the sword off him.  I actually dealt with a incident like this in Huddersfield in 1994 when a disturbed man was roaming around the town centre waving a Samurai sword.  We had just got body armour but used the standard procedure that we had all been taught.  Three officers equipped with Nato helmets and long shields, both readily available, squashed him against a wall. A fourth officer was then able to take the sword from him  safely.  The heart warming thing was that the officers then sat next to him and calmed him down and helped him to take his medication. 

 

Jamie 

.

The closest I came to "not going home" - was at the hands of an 80 year old woman, we had been asked by hospital staff to assist in 'sectioning' .

.

She was sat on a sofa in a lounge surrounded by many shelves containing literally hundreds of dolls.

.

As I leaned over her, she screamed 'get outta my f***ing house !" and swung at my stomach with a Gurkha's kukri she'd hidden under a cushion.

.

Despite me breathing in, and arching backwards the blade of the knife made contact with my shirt, just below my body armour and above my belt.

.

The only way to get her to release the kukri was an eventual blow to the wrist with a PR-24 (side handled baton).

.

Moral of the story - "always expect the unexpected"

.

Edited May 1 by br2975

[br2975]

6 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Some years ago when I was in charge of Personnel for my division, I had to deal with an officer with a poor sickness record.  However I  knew that he had shot someone several years before to save the life of another colleague who had been taken hostage at gunpoint. The hostage was a good friend of mine and fortunately escaped witno physical I juries.  The AFO put 5 bullets into the offender which miraculously didn't kill him.  A 38 revolver.  When I went to visit him at home a very sorry tale, similar to what Brian related above, emerged. Zero support and certainly no counselling, plus some mockery from fellow officers about his marksmanship.  Iwas the first senior officer in 15 years who had attempted to get the full tale. This was mainly because of my knowledge of the original incident.  Certainly my predecessor in my post had done nothing to sort things out.  

 

I arranged for him to see the force psychologist who helped him to get back on track and his sickness record improved dramatically. However, for other reasons I got no thanks. 

 

Jamie

.

On the subject of your former colleagues - it was with great sadness, but also honour that in 2004, I attended Leeds Parish Church and represented South Wales Police during the funeral of Constable Ian Broadhurst.

.

One of the few occasions in my service when a handkerchief was required.

[polybear]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

Or when there is a DNAR, but it's locked in the safe and the manager took the keys home. 

 

Whilst not a DNR exactly, I do carry a card in my wallet stating that I have a "Notice of Advance Decision" which is legally enforceable - and who to contact to obtain a copy (two people hold them on my behalf - I also have a copy at home).

If, for example I was in an accident and as a result I would be permanently blind, or a quadriplegic then in the event of Cardiac Arrest then I most definitely don't want to be resuscitated.  

 

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Both my parents and MiL had DNRs and I think that when the time comes, i.e., I know I am on the way out, I may well do the same. Which triggers the thought, how much further down that road is assisted suicide?

Sorry to raise yet another cheery little topic.

I'm off to the shed now to cheer myself up.

 

Dave 

In East Anglia they just stick NfN above their beds.

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It is an established principle of British government that a minister is not required to have specific expertise in the area for which they have responsibility; that's what their civil servants are there to provide.

Ignorance of the subject is a qualification for the job.

If they were competent in their field they would appear to be better qualified that the prime minister who appointed them, and therefore a threat to him.

[Dave Hunt]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

It is an established principle of British government that a minister is not required to have specific expertise in the area for which they have responsibility; that's what their civil servants are there to provide.

 

Which would be OK were the Civil Servants to have the necessary level of expertise and competence. I'm afraid that where the MoD is concerned, in my experience they are sadly lacking.

 

Dave

 

 

Edited May 1 by Dave Hunt

[Winslow Boy]

4 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I've still got all my toes intact🤣.

 

So is that another five tips then?

[Northmoor]

20 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Which would be OK were the Civil Servants to have the necessary level of expertise and competence. I'm afraid that where the MoD is concerned, in my experience they are sadly lacking.

 

I spent nine years as a consultant to defence procurement projects in the early 2000s.  Much of SMART procurement - which came in during the half-decade before I started the job - was and is very sensible, like defining what it is you are trying to achieve and let that define what you purchase, rather than just opening a weapons catalogue and deciding You Like That One.  The bit where government decided that the MoD didn't need to be an intelligent customer - it just needed people who understood how to buy stuff - not so much.

 

I did come across a few Civil Servants (I'd started out as one but we were privatised in 2002) in the MoD who clearly resented employing us (or indeed any consultants) to advise them and were grudging at every step.  I met a lot more who genuinely tried to do a good job, but were hamstrung by a system contrived to put barriers in the way of procurement, because otherwise the Treasury would have had to treble the defence budget.

 

The former group, on more than one occasion myself or a colleague (one, Mike was a famously blunt former Flt Lt) came very close to telling them that if they weren't so effing useless at their job, we wouldn't need to be paid to do it instead of them.  All they needed to do was really simple stuff like: talk to their opposite number in other project teams to see how their plans were written, write one version of a plan and keep it in a shared location so that everybody knew what the single source of truth was, etc.  I would very gladly have trained Integrated Project Teams - in fact my colleague was kept very busy teaching them how to apply their own guidance - in doing our job and been equally satisfied at putting my own employer's consultancy and many, many others, out of business.  The feeding trough for consultants in MoD was genuinely becoming embarrassing by the time I was made redundant from the industry, but the system that they can so easily exploit was put in place by politicians. 

 

It is the same system that now sees government departments spending eye-watering amounts on consultants to provide routine activities that the department should be able to do itself, but politicians who baulk at paying a decent middle-ranking CS a grand a week to get work completed, are quite happy to pay private sector consultants to create work, quadruple that amount for year, after year, after year.

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

It is the same system that now sees government departments spending eye-watering amounts on consultants to provide routine activities that the department should be able to do itself, but politicians who baulk at paying a decent middle-ranking CS a grand a week to get work completed, are quite happy to pay private sector consultants to create work, quadruple that amount for year, after year, after year.

 

I suspect that a lot of this comes down to the idea of reducing the size of the Civil Service having been such a shibboleth in some quarters. It's cutting the headline number of people employed that matters, irrespective of how many people one needs to do the job. So consultants have to be employed to make up the shortfall.

 

Well, that's my theory, anyway.

[AndyID]

14 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I had an outbreak of weak soldering iron disease a couple of years ago along with slow running trains on the layout.  I eventually traced this back to a faulty inverter that was supposed to be converting three phase current to single phase 230v AC.  This had been installed by a French Sparky.  I eventually found the problem.  The voltage it produced was only 140 volts.  My previous sparky has done a disappearing act so I got another in, a Brit. He sorted the problem and put a new consumer unit in for me.  I now use the old three phase wiring to distribute 230 and my soldeing irons actually solder.  I just need the motivation to use them. 

 

Jamie

 

If its a four wire system (three phases and one neutral) you should get 230/240 by connecting the load between any one of the phases and neutral. Or maybe I'm missing something.

 

 

 

Edited May 1 by AndyID

[jamie92208]

1 minute ago, AndyID said:

 

If its a four wire system (three phases and one neutral) you should get 230/240 by connecting the load between any one of the phases an neutral. Or maybe I'm missing something.

That's what the 2nd sparky did in the new consumer unit.  The first sold me a duff inverter that allegedly converted 3 phase to a single phase output.  Unfortunstely it somehow kicked out at 140 volts.  There was a 3 phase distribution system round the shed that had supplied woodworking machinery.  The redundant wires from that  now carry the 230 volt supply.  Several of the walboxes are no longer used but if in the future need extra sockets anywhere it's a simple job to use one of the unused outlets. I am reasonably happy working on 230 volt monophase but now my limitations and wouldn't touch La Force as three phase is known. 

 

Jamie

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

On the subject of your former colleagues - it was with great sadness, but also honour that in 2004, I attended Leeds Parish Church and represented South Wales Police during the funeral of Constable Ian Broadhurst.

.

One of the few occasions in my service when a handkerchief was required.

His killer attacked a prison guard while inside.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/david-bieber-life-prison-ian-broadhurst-alison-smith-b2230699.html

When he gets out he'll be on a plane back to the US in the company of a US Marshall to face another trial.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

His killer attacked a prison guard while inside.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/david-bieber-life-prison-ian-broadhurst-alison-smith-b2230699.html

When he gets out he'll be on a plane back to the US in the company of a US Marshall to face another trial.

So why don''t we send him back now and save the taxpayer the cost of so many years porridge? 

If the yanks send him to the electric chair, that'll save them the cost of the porridge too.