Lockdown #2

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

 

I've actually wondered at points through this pandemic whether the PM quite "gets" the change in culture, when he very clearly regards pubs as something really totemic/symbolic, but barely if ever mentions cafes.

 

 

 

 

As Boris seems to be very chummy with Mr Martin I do not find his bias at all surprising.

Bernard

[Nearholmer]

Well, Lockdown 2 ends at one minute after midnight, and we are all going to be set free to buy stuff we don't really need and to meet a few others outdoors in the middle of winter in the cold, dark rain.

 

Looking at the numbers, where I live we seem to be emerging from L2 a tiny bit less at risk than when we went in, but, and this is the good bit, on significantly falling case rate, rather than a significantly rising one. Locally, it has definitely worked.

 

Which, based on an experience I had this morning, is nothing short of a miracle.

 

I had to collect a parcel from a corner shop that I never normally go to. Entry/counter area in said shop is about as big as our downstairs loo, so very cramped, and in it were standing: the shopkeeper, who has a perspex screen around his till, but wore no mask, and had to emerge from behind the till into the shop to ferret-around in the parcel pile; a woman who had pulled her mask down so that she could have a loud conversation on her 'phone, standing right in the doorway for the whole time I was there; and, a bloke with no mask at all who runs errands on his bike for the shopkeeper, and who had what I hope was a streaming cold-ordinaire rather than anything worse.

 

Staggering!

 

I was masked-up, still felt exceedingly un-covid-safe.

 

 

[AY Mod]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Wanna place a bet on that?  Not even considering occasional extremes that are shown in tv programmes I bet you'll find plenty of places including households with conditions which have become insanitary because of lack of cleaning and disinfection and in some cases were probably initially inadequate for the job they had to do.   And have you noticed how many people don't wash their hands after using a toilet?  it's not just about the infrastructure but an awful lot of it has to do with the way people use (or rather misuse) that infrastructure.

 

This could be applied to around a quarter of club rooms I visit. One is a ready-made set for a remake of 28 Days Later.

[chris p bacon]

Without going too off topic, it wasn't that far back that I used to work for a firm that carried out repairs on social housing.  I was amazed at the conditions that some people were happy to live in. Mouldy food on plates on stairs, bathrooms that looked like H block dirty protests and general insanitary conditions.

One that sticks in the mind was a house where we had to replace a window on the 1st floor. My mate was inside and struggled to get to the window as he counted in excess of 100 empty coke cans littered on the floor around the bed, he said "your lucky you're not in here" I pointed down to the back garden to where I had to throw cardboard on the garden to create a clear path through the piles of dog sh1t. When we left we both had to walk through the house and noted the multiple full nappies strewn about the rooms. To say the smell was atrocious was an understatement and I remember throwing up as we got out.  

Sadly this wasn't an isolated property and we found several like this each week, the children from these properties have now grown up and possibly live the same way if that was what they thought was acceptable.

[Nearholmer]

I think there is a connection between what I experienced this morning and Chris P's experience, and I apologise in advance if this comes across as arrogant, patronising or both: intelligence and general capability in life come distributed on some sort of bell-curve, like pretty much everything else, so a small percentage of people are geniuses, and a small percentage are barely capable of looking after themselves. The most extremely challenged get looked-after to varying degrees by society, but those who are a teeny bit more capable, but probably no more capable than a bright ten year old, get caught by some safety nets (roof over their head), but generally get left to make a bad job of life. Add-in the fact they are the most at prey to things like alcohol and drugs, and it gets really unpleasant. 

 

Where we used to live, our neighbour was a senior social worker and we used to walk our dogs together and have a gossip. He reckoned that in a city of nearly a quarter of a million, there were no more than about fifty households that fell into this "utterly chaotic" bracket, but that they kept his team, the education department, and half the local police force fully employed, and that, all-in-all, it might have been more humane and possibly cheaper to take them all "into care" (the adults and the children) and look after them all properly. And, of course, its a cycle, with all the problems passing to the next generation. But, if you want reassurance that it is possible to rise out of this sort of stuff, with help, read the early-life biog of England footballer Dele Alli, who was effectively plucked out of this sort of situation, looked after and given a break.

 

 

[hayfield]

I remember helping out one of my builder mates on my day off 50 years ago, the house was a tip and the little old lady living there would insist in making us tea, when she was out of sight it went down the drain.

 

In my previous jobs I used to visit people in their homes, as you say its more likely to find cleanliness issues with those less well off, but I have been in some quite expensive owner occupied properties where you wipe your feet in the way out, my daughter went in to a property worth over £3m and said it was filthy

 

But its the whole way of life that cause issues, poverty can be one where hygiene standards are not as good as they should be, population density increases the risk especially along with poor social distancing, then if the household is multi generational additional precautions must be adhered to, finally ones health and age must be taken into consideration. Its clear that some social and or ethnic groups fail to grasp this and suffer the consequences disproportionally, many through ignorance or living what is known as a chaotic lifestyle.

 

All the government can do  is advise and we all are under greater restrictions than perhaps in an ideal world than we should be, simply to counter act for those who dissregard the rules.

 

Look at that pop singer who got caught out, but the restaurant should have not have served anyone. Sorry but to get the word needs to get out, everyone connected should be fined especially the restaurant !!!. It cannot be seen to be different rules if you are in the public eye, or even a business subject to public health rules

 

One other question, if you are indoors where there are people not in your family, why are MP's not wearing masks in parliament ?, they at least should be setting an example to all !! 

[admiles]

12 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

One other question, if you are indoors where there are people not in your family, why are MP's not wearing masks in parliament ?, they at least should be setting an example to all !! 

 

Because it would seem a fair proportion of those "in power" do not think the rules, such as they are, apply to them!  The Dominic Cummings and Margaret Ferrier incidents are a perfect example of that.

[chris p bacon]

54 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Because it would seem a fair proportion of those "in power" do not think the rules, such as they are, apply to them!  The Dominic Cummings and Margaret Ferrier incidents are a perfect example of that.

That is a disingenuous comment considering the work that the House of Commons staff have done to ensure a Covid safe workplace.

As for those "in power" (which Cummings isn't) that don't abide by the rules, I'd say they are a smaller proportional percentage of the general population who have ignored them since day 1.  Many of my neighbours have flouted the rules or bent them to suit their circumstances without a care in the world, so trying to put any blame on those in or associated with Westminster isn't justified.

[TheQ]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I

 

One other question, if you are indoors where there are people not in your family, why are MP's not wearing masks in parliament ?, they at least should be setting an example to all !! 

It's their Place pf work, if it's been set up in a "covid safe" manner masks are not required, which is why a large proportion of them are working from home and the rest are well spaced out.

 

We general don't wear masks here at work, but are about 50% manned, the rest WFH, however most areas would be classed as covid safe anyway due to large amounts of equipment between people.

 

As for me I'm normally in my lab on my own with my own Airconditioning which has filters on as do all our A/C units even in the communal areas.. Definitely no requirement for a mask.

 

[Reorte]

No masks here at out desks either, but the numbers on site are down enough that it's about one person to four desks right now, well spread out. Also very limited numbers in meeting rooms and masks when moving around.

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Without going too off topic, it wasn't that far back that I used to work for a firm that carried out repairs on social housing.  I was amazed at the conditions that some people were happy to live in. Mouldy food on plates on stairs, bathrooms that looked like H block dirty protests and general insanitary conditions.

When we were house-hunting before buying our current place, we looked at one that was an ex-rental. The insides of all the window frames, as well as the entire bathroom ceiling, were black with mould. We quite literally couldn't get out of there fast enough! 

[admiles]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

That is a disingenuous comment considering the work that the House of Commons staff have done to ensure a Covid safe workplace.

As for those "in power" (which Cummings isn't) that don't abide by the rules, I'd say they are a smaller proportional percentage of the general population who have ignored them since day 1.  Many of my neighbours have flouted the rules or bent them to suit their circumstances without a care in the world, so trying to put any blame on those in or associated with Westminster isn't justified.

 

I wasn't referring to the HoC staff (as I suspect you know). I simply expressed my opinion which you are perfectly entitled to disagree with.

 

 

[petethemole]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

It's their Place pf work, if it's been set up in a "covid safe" manner masks are not required, which is why a large proportion of them are working from home and the rest are well spaced out.

 

 

Which probably explains some of the decisions they make.

[Neil]

16 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Because it would seem a fair proportion of those "in power" do not think the rules, such as they are, apply to them!  The Dominic Cummings and Margaret Ferrier incidents are a perfect example of that.

 

15 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

That is a disingenuous comment considering the work that the House of Commons staff have done to ensure a Covid safe workplace.

As for those "in power" (which Cummings isn't) that don't abide by the rules, I'd say they are a smaller proportional percentage of the general population who have ignored them since day 1.  Many of my neighbours have flouted the rules or bent them to suit their circumstances without a care in the world, so trying to put any blame on those in or associated with Westminster isn't justified.

 

Though they are a smaller percentage they have a far higher profile than the ordinary man or woman. Cummings was defended by the government, a particular problem as it legitimised self before community as well as gaming the rules and restrictions around covid. 

[chris p bacon]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

Though they are a smaller percentage they have a far higher profile than the ordinary man or woman. Cummings was defended by the government, a particular problem as it legitimised self before community as well as gaming the rules and restrictions around covid. 

 

Whilst I'm not defending Cummings, I have noted that several people who live close to me used him as a convenient excuse to ignore the lockdown rules. The fact that all of them had never abided by them since the beginning , travelling anywhere they wanted, family parties and setting up barbershops in their front room etc doesn't seem to matter. 

I pointed out to a couple of them that as they'd never abided by the rules maybe Cummings had followed their example. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by chris p bacon

[Reorte]

11 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Whilst I'm not defending Cummings, I have noted that several people who live close to me used him as a convenient excuse to ignore the lockdown rules. The fact that all of them had never abided by them since the beginning , travelling anywhere they wanted, family parties and setting up barbershops in their front room etc doesn't seem to matter. 

I pointed out to a couple of them that as they'd never abided by the rules maybe Cummings had followed their example. 

 

People who are inclined to ignore rules will ignore them regardless. Something might happen that they'll use as a convenient excuse if questioned but they're fundamentally inclined to break them anyway. Some of them have just enough respect for the law to go along with it, up to the point (they're the ones who are most likely to start completely ignoring restrictions and go to the other extreme if they think they're over the top, which is the current danger).

 

There are though those who'll look at them and when they see Cummings-like behaviour come to the conclusion that the rules were a waste of time only put in place to look like doing something as a result of it.

 

The other group who don't always pay attention to them won't use Cummings as an excuse, they're the ones who agree (to some degree at any rate) with the spirit of them but not the letter. They're usually not a problem, and often less of one than the ones who religiously stick to them; they're more likely to not engage in risky behaviour even if it's not covered by the rules.

[monkeysarefun]

Its day  25 of no community transmission here, today there  were a heap of announcements about relaxing of rules.

 

We can once again stand up to drink at pubs, we can dance at weddings and international acts will finally have venues they can play in if they want to head down here for a world tour that includes only Australia and New Zealand

 

Sporting events will be allowed 100% capacity crowds, and protests can have up to 3000 people so  any anti-lockdown protesters will finally be able to hold one legally here at last.

Edited December 2, 2020 by monkeysarefun

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

We can once again stand up to drink at pubs

 

I think you'll find that's only for a limited time; say a couple of hours.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Whilst I'm not defending Cummings, I have noted that several people who live close to me used him as a convenient excuse to ignore the lockdown rules. The fact that all of them had never abided by them since the beginning , travelling anywhere they wanted, family parties and setting up barbershops in their front room etc doesn't seem to matter. 

I pointed out to a couple of them that as they'd never abided by the rules maybe Cummings had followed their example. 

 

Dave

 

It seems quite often as you say those who have the least regard for the rules often use others misdemeanours as an excuse for their own actions outside the rules or political capital

 

Whilst we had tried to keep as many of the rules as we could, I expect like many others over the past 8 months I doubt I have been 100% compliant, but nothing very major or reckless.

 

Cummings was an interesting case as it was both early on and to protect their young child, if I was concerned about my child's safety I would do the same of course

 

Again I guess the MP initially was caught between a rock and a hard place initially. Once confirmed she should have stayed put. But her defence was that the virus affected her ability to reason properly. Who of us has never done a completely stupid thing?

 

The worst event was that celebs party, whilst the celeb could have claimed she got confused with the rules. That restaurant should be up to date with the currant health and safety rules. In my opinion certainly it should be made to close completely until it reassures the local authority it is able to trade safely within the rules. A slap over the wrist sends out the wrong signal

 

What is it, let he who never sinned throw the first stone !!! Guess I will have to put my marbles away

[monkeysarefun]

25 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I think you'll find that's only for a limited time; say a couple of hours.

And to make it even more difficult to stay standing, the nsw government is giving us eah a $100 xoucher to spend at pubs etc. 

Tis a great time to be an Australian..

Edited December 2, 2020 by monkeysarefun

[hayfield]

22 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I think you'll find that's only for a limited time; say a couple of hours.

 

Next week (will wait for the initial rush to cease) I will go out and have a pub meal, just to support a local business. As for standing up happy to drink a pint sitting down with a nice meal

[Phil Traxson]

And here in Wales we will not even be able to drink in a pub after Friday because our beloved leader has decided that they can only open until 6 pm, and even when open are not allowed to sell alcohol. So they've almost all decided to close completely until further notice, even Wetherspoons. Some of them will never open again. This, of course, is not be expected to cause folks to meet up and drink at home or cause any employment losses!!

Edited December 2, 2020 by Phil Traxson

[hayfield]

Phil

 

Think of all the money he is saving you

[ejstubbs]

20 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said:

our beloved leader has decided that they can only open until 6 pm, and even when open are not allowed to sell alcohol

 

Same as level 3 here in Scotland, then, which my local authority area has now been at for a month.

Edited December 2, 2020 by ejstubbs

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Phil

 

Think of all the money he is saving you

No point in saving money if you can't spend it on what you enjoy doing (as long as you've also got enough to spend on what you need doing).

 

As far as I'm concerned once I've paid the necessary bills and put some aside for a rainy day things like going to the pub is what money's for.