Bachmann Collectors Club thanks the NHS and a S&DJR 1P

[dogbox321]

On 03/11/2020 at 15:37, TomScrut said:

 

Without wanting to sound patronising, if there is £60,000 going to the charities as a result of this then 500=£120 per set, 750=£90 per set, 1000=£60 per set. Realistically given he said "all proceeds" in the video IIRC then It has got to be in that region IMO but I do understand why they won't say due to the insights it may give. They may be donating more for a sound one too.

 

Yes, but both an OO and an N.

 

Not wishing to detract- But Bchmann and their Collectors Club also has the luxury of a double margin - that of manufacturer and retailer.

Edited November 4, 2020 by dogbox321
Additional Comment

[dogbox321]

Just now, dogbox321 said:

 

yes, but an OO and an N.

 

So Hornby have done OO, Dapol N, and Bachmann both.  All we need now is Hattons and then everyone has done it!

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I do find this enthusiasm for the Hattons coaches to be completely inexplicable. Here we have a superb model of an S&DJR engine and really horrendous models of coaches and they are both getting the same degree of critical acclaim.

 

 

The Hattons Genesis coaches are most certainly NOT 'horrendous' as you put it. Yes they are freelance and do not correspond with any real life coach but the work that has gone into designing the tooling has resulted in something that looks visually appealing with plenty of detailing. The application of various company liveries looks (based on the artwork) to be very attractive too. None of that makes them 'Horrendous' - inaccurate? Fictions? most certainly, but not 'horrendous'

 

Yes it would obviously be nice to have 100% accurate models of S&DJR coaches - but the same could also be said of the SECR or LSBCR to complement the H/P and the Terriers. If Hattons proves the demand is there then its entirely possible that another manufacturer might well decide to do so - but the brutal truth is that so far none of the big manufacturers have thought it worthwhile despite releasing locos which would be perfectly suited to running with a set of 4 / 6 wheelers.

Edited November 5, 2020 by phil-b259

[wainwright1]

12 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Didn't know that etched kits of S&DJR stock were available

Cheers

Trouble is, you have to get them out of Coopercraft !!!!!!!

 

Ray

[PenrithBeacon]

Oh dear!

[TomScrut]

11 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

 

Yes, but both an OO and an N.

 

Not wishing to detract- But Bchmann and their Collectors Club also has the luxury of a double margin - that of manufacturer and retailer.

 

Good point w.r.t. its in both gauges.

 

They do but so did Hornby when they did theirs.

 

With it being £60,000 it does mean it is likely to be far far less than the Hornby numbers across both gauges IMO.

[Steamport Southport]

16 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Hope this helps when you're placing your order with Hattons.

 

 

Rob. 

 

I won't be. They might not be horrendous, but they are wrong. Just my opinion, YMMV.   

 

If I wanted 4 or 6 wheelers I would build kits. Plenty of them about. From the very easy to build Ratio and Shirescenes GWR stock, through to the Slaters MR, London Road Models have some, Roxey make LSWR, LBSC, LCDR, etc.

 

There's even a S&DJR Milk Van. Maybe a couple of those.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/32/4mm-scale-s-djr-vans-/

 

I've already just bought two sets of Ratios Midland carriages for the MR one. A sub set and three clerestories. To replace the ones I built when I was a teenager.

 

I think there was drawings in MRN for the S&DJR bogie stock. I'll have a look for them. Maybe they could be adapted from something else.

 

 

 

We keep being told. Do some modelling, but when some suggests doing some, they get shot down...

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

They might not be horrendous, but they are wrong. Just my opinion, YMMV.   

As a stickler for accurate carriages, I assume that as you've got the Ratio Bain suburbans you are either modelling the Manchester South District and building a nine-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/T/F/F/F/F/T/BT(6 comp) or the Birmingham area, for which you have more choice:

Six-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/F/F/T/BT(6 comp) for the Kings Norton out-and-back, Lifford circle, and Wolverhampton services;

Four-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/F/BT(6 comp) chiefly for the New Street, Walsall and Wolverhampton services;

Four-coach set BT(4 comp)/T/C/BT(4 comp) for the "Gloucester Loop" services to Redditch, Evesham, and Ashchurch;

as anything else would be wrong. (Although with modification to the u/f and replacement 8ft bogies they are close to the Sheffield District stock but there were differences in the panel dimensions.)

 

The Ratio Midland clerestories are wrong for the period represented by Bachmann's 1273 as they have the door toplights replaced by ventilators, a modification that dates them to the 1920s.

 

I would be entertained to hear @PenrithBeacon's considered opinion of the old Hornby "S&DJR" 4-wheeler!

Edited November 5, 2020 by Compound2632
Two ds in Redditch

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As a stickler for accurate carriages, I assume that as you've got the Ratio Bain suburbans you are either modelling the Manchester South District and building a nine-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/T/F/F/F/F/T/BT(6 comp) or the Birmingham area, for which you have more choice:

Six-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/F/F/T/BT(6 comp) for the Kings Norton out-and-back, Lifford circle, and Wolverhampton services;

Four-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/F/BT(6 comp) chiefly for the New Street, Walsall and Wolverhampton services;

Four-coach set BT(4 comp)/T/C/BT(4 comp) for the "Gloucester Loop" services to Redditch, Evesham, and Ashchurch;

as anything else would be wrong. (Although with modification to the u/f and replacement 8ft bogies they are close to the Sheffield District stock but there were differences in the panel dimensions.)

 

The Ratio Midland clerestories are wrong for the period represented by Bachmann's 1273 as they have the door toplights replaced by ventilators, a modification that dates them to the 1920s.

 

I would be entertained to hear @PenrithBeacon's considered opinion of the old Hornby "S&DJR" 4-wheeler!

 

I'm not a stickler for detail. As long as the train is correct for the locomotive that's fine. The Hatton's coaches aren't correct. But that discussion has already been done to death.

 

 

But all that is in hand. I even dug The 4mm Coach book by Stephen Williams out the other day as it has a section on them. The Midland Carriage books are further back so difficult to get to. I'll also go through the index of what's in Midland Record. Got a full set, as I have of the LMS Journal, 

 

I'm also on the lookout for MR 10 foot bogies. It's either that or use the plastic sides on a MJT etch.

 

Not a priority as I've got a set of Wizard (Chowbent) L&Y Lavatory Stock to build for the L&YR liveried 2-4-2T and dozens of Comet kits. Approximately 20 Ian Kirk LNER kits. Wagons coming out of my ears.

 

As well as finish of the Roxey SECR Birdcage set bought before Bachmann made theirs.

 

Does it matter that I mostly model BR? Anything else is just pet projects because I like them. They aren't even a priority.

 

I like the S&DJR 0-4-4T. If I buy one I want the correct stock for it. Even if that means just buying a couple of milk vans.

 

I'm hardly an expert modeller. More what RM used to call "the average modeller" in that I mostly use RTR with a few kits. None of which are going to win awards.

 

But shouldn't we at least try to get it right? Or as close as possible.

 

 

Jason

[PenrithBeacon]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As a stickler for accurate carriages, I assume that as you've got the Ratio Bain suburbans you are either modelling the Manchester South District and building a nine-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/T/F/F/F/F/T/BT(6 comp) or the Birmingham area, for which you have more choice:

Six-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/F/F/T/BT(6 comp) for the Kings Norton out-and-back, Lifford circle, and Wolverhampton services;

Four-coach set BT(6 comp)/T/F/BT(6 comp) chiefly for the New Street, Walsall and Wolverhampton services;

Four-coach set BT(4 comp)/T/C/BT(4 comp) for the "Gloucester Loop" services to Redditch, Evesham, and Ashchurch;

as anything else would be wrong. (Although with modification to the u/f and replacement 8ft bogies they are close to the Sheffield District stock but there were differences in the panel dimensions.)

 

The Ratio Midland clerestories are wrong for the period represented by Bachmann's 1273 as they have the door toplights replaced by ventilators, a modification that dates them to the 1920s.

 

I would be entertained to hear @PenrithBeacon's considered opinion of the old Hornby "S&DJR" 4-wheeler!

It's truly weird to read a respected commentator going to such lengths of pedantry to justify the Hatton's generic coach range.

As to the Hornby S&DJR coaches, I don't know of them but I'd be surprised if they, too, weren't pretty awful.

I'd have more respect for Hatton's in all this if they had chosen one prototype and then reproduced in in other inaccurate liveries, at least one would then be correct.

Does anyone have a view of the possibility of cutting and shutting these models into something that is more accurate? Many pre-group companies used standard compartment widths as the basis for coaching stock, and I wonder what process Hatton's followed while designing these models.

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

It's truly weird to read a respected commentator going to such lengths of pedantry to justify the Hatton's generic coach range.

 

1. I'm highly flattered to be called a "respected commentator"!
2. I've done a bit of research on the Birmingham area suburban carriages that I hope to get published in the Midland Railway Society Journal at some point, so it's a bit of a pet subject to be pedantic about.
3. I'll come clean and state that in response to the comments I made publicly on the Hattons Genesis thread, Hattons invited me (along with others) to provide more input privately. I like to think that the result of that input is models that, whilst freelance, are largely free of unprototypical features and also features for which, whilst prototype examples could be found, are unusual. There were a small number of features on which we agreed to differ. 
4. I'd be interested to know what features of the Hattons carriage you consider to be wrong; or is it the entire concept you think of as wrong? That's a legitimate point of view and was indeed my immediate reaction to the initial announcement. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[AY Mod]

I figured I'd be waiting a long time for a Maryport & Carlisle 6-wheeler that was on my list http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/chasewater10.html ; even longer if I was going to get round to scratchbuilding it.

 

So I took an easy option.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=908

 

Not perfect but it'll do for a while at least.

[PenrithBeacon]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

...

1. I'd be interested to know what features of the Hattons carriage you consider to be wrong; or is it the entire concept you think of as wrong? That's a legitimate point of view and was indeed my immediate reaction to the initial announcement. 

It's the entire concept, the idea of a model railway, in the 21st century, having a generic anything is very strange.

 

Again I ask, what prototype features do the compartments share with the prototype? They are clearly not LNW, LY or GN, so where did these ideas come from? And if that can be identified are they accurate? Do 1st, 2nd and 3rd compartments differ?

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Again I ask, what prototype features do the compartments share with the prototype? They are clearly not LNW, LY or GN, so where did these ideas come from? 

 

No indeed, because the style of panelling adopted by the LNW*, LY, and GN was in each case distinctive. If you look at, say GW, NE, LSW, LBSC, Midland, S&DJR**, for example, you'll see that the panelling style is broadly similar, though differing in detail. Other companies' styles, e.g. GE, MS&L/GC, M&C(!) for example, differ again but not as radically as LNW, LY, or GN - by picking those examples, you've chosen the most notable outliers. But this has been done to death on the Hattons Genesis topic.

 

Of course there are other differentiators such as length, end panelling style, end turn-under, roof profile.

 

*The LNW panelling style was also used by the SER/SECR, FR, and NSR at some periods, so is probably the second most widely-used.

 

**S&DJR carriages are a fascinating study. Highbridge used Midland standard dimensions and styling in its own idiosyncratic way, producing carriages that are often disturbingly non-Midland-like! That said, the single commonest type of S&DJR carriage, the 5-compartment 31 ft 6-wheel third, batches of which were built by Oldbury and Cravens as well as at Highbridge, was identical to the standard Midland 6-wheel third, for which several kits are or have been available in 4 mm/ft scale.

[friscopete]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I won't be. They might not be horrendous, but they are wrong. Just my opinion, YMMV.   

 

If I wanted 4 or 6 wheelers I would build kits. Plenty of them about. From the very easy to build Ratio and Shirescenes GWR stock, through to the Slaters MR, London Road Models have some, Roxey make LSWR, LBSC, LCDR, etc.

 

There's even a S&DJR Milk Van. Maybe a couple of those.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/32/4mm-scale-s-djr-vans-/

 

I've already just bought two sets of Ratios Midland carriages for the MR one. A sub set and three clerestories. To replace the ones I built when I was a teenager.

 

I think there was drawings in MRN for the S&DJR bogie stock. I'll have a look for them. Maybe they could be adapted from something else.

 

 

 

We keep being told. Do some modelling, but when some suggests doing some, they get shot down...

 

Well clever you old chap .You obviously have the skills ,time and wherewithall to do this .So do I .I cant be bothered  though and like most modellers all over the world will settle for a nice shiny well made fake which will probably look  fantastic better and run better than most scratch or kit built unless very well and professionally made .So stick yer arrogant  sarcastic comments up yer glue nozzle and let everyone else enjoy them selves .Get cracking because we will want to see the results .

['CHARD]

Now, where did I put the popcorn....

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

But shouldn't we at least try to get it right? Or as close as possible.

 

As far as I'm concerned that's a sentiment with which I couldn't agree more. However, tastes differ and should be viewed with tolerance.

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

We keep being told. Do some modelling, but when some suggests doing some, they get shot down...

 

I think the thing is that a lot of the so called "modellers" think that it is an essential part of being interested in model railways. It isn't, that is why ready to run exists is it not?

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

It isn't, that is why ready to run exists is it not?

 

Also tinplate, for example. Hours of fun. It's merely collecting RTR that baffles me.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

It's merely collecting RTR that baffles me.

 

I don't know, I like looking at my stuff even when it's not running.

 

And remember, all the different niches of interest are all beneficial (essential even?) to the industry.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

It's the entire concept, the idea of a model railway, in the 21st century, having a generic anything is very strange.

 

Try putting yourself in their shoes, using your scenario...

 

They pick 4 coaches, from the L&Y, model them accurately, at a 6 figure cost.

To make it work economically, they make 1000 of each, 4000 coaches.

 

The forum goes alive.. “why didnt you do ( take your pick from : GWR, LBSC, FR, GNR, LSW, SECR, etc etc).

 

then...

“Are you sure the L&Y used that shade, I have a badly exposed grainy black and white news paper cutting that my grandad left me after eating chips in 1917 and the vinegar stain clearly demonstrates the wood stain was darker”.

 

Followed by : 

“you missed a grain in the wood on the under frame, thats it i’m out”.

They end up with 1000 left, project breaks even at best.

people grumble they should have done SECR etc.

 

OR...

They make an approximation of the type, that covers several liveries, without the accuracy fuss. They can make 500 of 12 types x4 and so thats 24,000, sells out.

 

Loads of people content with having something rather than nothing.

Those who arent, get the knives out, and start crafting, having a super detailed 4 wheeler to convert into something specific, rather than using a Hornby 45 year old 4 wheeler.

 

 

OR...

They look at it, think, forget it, we will make a class 69 instead.

 

I think their choice was the best compromise between nothing and something. I doubt anyone will find it worthwhile to tool accurate victorian four wheelers, without resorting to non-authentic liveries.

 

SDJR and L&Y will be my choices.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

12 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

They look at it, think, forget it, we will make a class 69 instead

 

YES!!!!!

 

But in all seriousness, I completely agree with what you say, although I am not very knowledgeable at all on coaches of this particular era what you say is how I understand the logic behind the whole project is.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Those who arent, get the knives out, and start crafting,

 

The evidence of RMWeb is sometimes that once the knives are out, they're not put to such artisinal purposes.

[adb968008]

30 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

YES!!!!!

 

But in all seriousness, I completely agree with what you say, although I am not very knowledgeable at all on coaches of this particular era what you say is how I understand the logic behind the whole project is.

No one is, no one is alive from then. Coaches, the name originates from StageCoach and Horses. Standard design coaches were not yet evolved fully. The early builders learned their trade making stagecoaches, designs becoming more standardardized in the 1870-1890’s. The coaches were highly ad-hoc, the maintenance even more so, time made the bespoke even more bespoke. Theres not sufficient pictures from all angles to make prototypes, drawings may not always exist, or be accurate.

Even those who think they are spot on, cant be 100% sure, odd buffers are common, misplaced step boards, doors changed, bending of frames.. it goes on.

 

Modellers of this era are a smaller minority of the hobby. They have to resort to kits or scratchbuilding.

 

People owning a loco from this period are growing, and own them more due to being pretty, and available rtr, than being accurate to their collection era, but lack stock.

 

Combine the 3, makes the project worthwhile.

 

As an aside it would be interesting how late 4wheelers were being built, the “newest” 4wheelers I know are DB / PKP thunderboxes, built in the 1930’s and retired in 1989, but widely seen today still.

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by adb968008

[Zunnan]

As long as a large number of modellers are happy to run those truly hideous old Lima Mk1s behind their brand spanking new all singing and dancing Hornbach class 958, I think I can live with the compromise Hattons has come to.

 

What I absolutely would not stomach is a range of accurate LNWR coaches then being tarted up in S&DJR (or any other) livery to try and placate modellers of those and to be able to produce enough models to make the range viable. As much as I'd love LNW  and MR stock, I'd rather have a quick to grab freelanced robust RTR model that I don't mind getting handled at the club, especially after the time some ham fisted visitor grabbed a derailed 51L coach and managed to stove the sides in. Was NOT a happy bunny. Besides, I'd rather be able to let the kids at the club be able to run my stuff without panicking that they'll (inevitably) manage to crash something and chip lumps out of the paint.

 

Looking forward to the S&D and Midland set eventually arriving, they'll look stunning with the 1P in those liveries, and if they hack people off for being inaccurate they are more than welcome to walk away. Your options for kitbuilding haven't changed, and who knows, they might even attract new people to seek out those more appropriate kits making reruns of the lesser available stuff more viable in the long term. Maybe, just maybe they'll make the case for accurate RTR offerings more viable too.