whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 This year the proceedings will be overseen by a king who was born three years after World War Two ended, and he's not a young man either. Is this really about Remembrance when hardly anyone who can remember is left alive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR traction instructor Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 …the events in Ukraine should be ample evidence of why every man, woman and child has to instinctively understand the folly of such actions…remembrance of previous wars and ancestors lost is therefore woven into this necessity. BeRTIe 2 12 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, whart57 said: This year the proceedings will be overseen by a king who was born three years after World War Two ended, and he's not a young man either. Is this really about Remembrance when hardly anyone who can remember is left alive? Korea, Falklands, Ulster, Gulf 1 and 2, Afghanistan....I have relatives who served in all of these.. Chris H Edited November 7, 2022 by Gilbert 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2022 18 minutes ago, whart57 said: Is this really about Remembrance when hardly anyone who can remember is left alive? It isn't just about the two world wars - what about the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afganistan etc . Don't the fallen there have a right to be remembered ? . 1 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said: It isn't just about the two world wars - what about the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afganistan etc . Don't the fallen there have a right to be remembered ? Well said Mike. Don't forget the physically and mentally scarred survivors either. 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 27 minutes ago, whart57 said: This year the proceedings will be overseen by a king who was born three years after World War Two ended, and he's not a young man either. Is this really about Remembrance when hardly anyone who can remember is left alive? The date was picked because of WW1, but as others have said it is, or at least it is for me, about remembering the pointlessness of war and the suffering it causes. The events in Ukraine and elsewhere around the world currently make it an even more poignant reminder this year of that. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 32 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said: It isn't just about the two world wars - what about the Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afganistan etc . Don't the fallen there have a right to be remembered ? . Only in rare circumstances are the names of those who died in those wars - and I note you didn't mention the Korean War or the Malayan insurgency - inscribed on war memorials. Nor was it felt necessary to recall those who had died in the Boer War or any other of Britain's interminable 19th century colonial wars when the first memorials were raised in the 1920s. You make a modern argument, one that came in when it was realised the number of surviving veterans was dropping fast. I'd also suggest that the remembrance of those who died in Northern Ireland's Troubles needs to be a bit more sensitive than just singling out British Army deaths. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 28 minutes ago, john new said: The date was picked because of WW1, but as others have said it is, or at least it is for me, about remembering the pointlessness of war and the suffering it causes. The events in Ukraine and elsewhere around the world currently make it an even more poignant reminder this year of that. I would agree, but that is not how Remembrance Day is commemorated here. No British leader has ever done as French President Mitterand and German Chancellor Kohl did and done a shared remembrance between former enemies to stress the "never again" aspect. Instead we have MPs still standing up in the Commons going on about the Germans having killed his father. Not only that but we have people escaping from war and its suffering turning up on our shores and we are scarcely rolling out a welcome mat. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 7, 2022 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 The Royal British Legion are the acknowledged leaders in Remembrance in the UK. It’s probably worth reminding ourselves of the principles they define before digging trenches…. Royal British Legion….Remembrance 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) War is a messy business. Allies become enemies. Foes become friends. It is the people serving on the front line and being bombed on the home front that we remember and honour. Among my photos in this album many wars against different enemies are recorded and those who served and died are honoured. http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/album/515827?with=30765381 These two honour people of other nations on opposite sides in recent wars, whose countries now have swapped places in their relations with this country. http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/25875135/in/album/515827 http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/30765381/in/album/515827 Edited November 7, 2022 by phil_sutters 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 2 hours ago, whart57 said: Only in rare circumstances are the names of those who died in those wars - and I note you didn't mention the Korean War or the Malayan insurgency - inscribed on war memorials. It did not take long to find this...this is not about war or politics its about people - and not only the dead deserve our thanks and respect. Chris H 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerburnie Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 My son is still a serving soldier and was in Iraq and Afghanistan, he lost comrades, they all need remembering. 1 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 36 minutes ago, Gilbert said: It did not take long to find this...this is not about war or politics its about people - and not only the dead deserve our thanks and respect. But only the military seem to get it. There are a lot of platitudes offered up about war being a very bad thing (other words are available) but those who die in wars because the war came to them rather than they went to the war are generally ignored and forgotten. People who try to escape from today's wars aren't really made welcome either. If you want to have a military celebration of Britain's victories then do so, but be honest about it. But if you want to mourn and remember those who died because we did our politics with violence then turn up in civvies and leave the Guards' bands in the barracks. The parades of the earliest RBL commemorations were about bringing the veterans back together again. That is no longer the case, and even then a lot of veterans didn't want to remember that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 During WW2, the Soviet Union was our ally when allied sailors endured terrible conditions in the Arctic convoys to supply Murmansk & Archangel with essentials. China was also on our side. In the west we tend to accept the impression given by Hollywood that the Americans won that war almost single-handed, and the main group who lost their lives were the 4 million jews barbarically murdered by the Nazis. Nobody in the west ever seems to recall that 20 million Russians were killed (even higher figures are estimated by some experts), and a similar number of Chinese. Yet Russians are now committing atrocities against Ukrainian civilians and we don't trust China especially as regards its intentions towards Taiwan. The Germans and Italians are part of Nato now, and though not a member state, Japan is closely allied, while Sweden has just decided to abandon its neutrality. Belgians must think that whenever other European countries fancy a punch-up, they always choose little old Belgium as the venue. As for the French, we've been on opposite sides more often than not since 1066. Malta was awarded the GC but is now friendly with Russia. Appalling though British and American losses were, at least we didn't suffer the occupation that continental Europe endured, and which parts of Ukraine must now suffer. The predictions in George Orwell's book weren't correct in all details, but sometimes it looks like his biggest error was just his choice of 1984 as the date. Not all hostilities are between nation states, but they still result in similar casualties. While my brother served in the RAF flying rescue helicopters in the Falkands, fortunately his first posting there was not until just after the end of hostilities. However he had previously had to support our troops in Northern Ireland. As a mere civilian, the City office where I was working was destroyed by the Baltic Exchange bomb, my desk being 6" deep in broken glass - I escaped unharmed because it was a couple of hours after I'd gone home for the night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 3 hours ago, whart57 said: I would agree, but that is not how Remembrance Day is commemorated here. No British leader has ever done as French President Mitterand and German Chancellor Kohl did and done a shared remembrance between former enemies to stress the "never again" aspect. Instead we have MPs still standing up in the Commons going on about the Germans having killed his father. Not only that but we have people escaping from war and its suffering turning up on our shores and we are scarcely rolling out a welcome mat. Name them. I doubt many serving MP are old enough to have had a father killed by Germans. Even Father Of The House, Sir Peter Bottomley is only just and his father died in 2013! Why even bring the subject up? Or are you playing politics..... Jason 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted November 7, 2022 Moderators Share Posted November 7, 2022 5 hours ago, whart57 said: Only in rare circumstances are the names of those who died in those wars - and I note you didn't mention the Korean War or the Malayan insurgency - inscribed on war memorials. Visit the Armed Forces Memorial at the National Memorial Arboretum. There are 16,000 names of service staff who have died since WW2. Including members of our wider family. And there are spaces for more. 4 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 41 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Name them. Bill Cash for one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 1 minute ago, whart57 said: Bill Cash for one Oh one! FFS give your brain a rest. This is not the time or place to debate politics. You certainly aren't making any friends.... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, whart57 said: Bill Cash for one According to the Shropshire Star... Mr Cash, whose father, Captain Paul Cash, was killed in Normandy on July 13, 1944, said: "Those who fought and died in the Normandy landings did not do so ....etc.." I can't spot the reference to Germans...it was a comment about previous sacrifices made by soldiers and the price they paid and was "political" so I have stopped there.. Edited November 7, 2022 by Gilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 Just now, Steamport Southport said: This is not the time or place to debate politics. You certainly aren't making any friends.... It is politics mate. Why do you think every politician and broadcaster wears a poppy at this time of year? Because if they didn't the Poppy Police would be on to them. Why do you think the number of memorials for civilians, support staff even animals suddenly started appearing fifty years after the war finished. The First World War was over a hundred years before semi-permanent memorials to it appeared everywhere, just coincidentally when we had a government bent on breaking up relationships with Europe. The veterans who actually fought in the two world wars were quite content with one morning in November as a commemoration of what they had lived through. To tell the truth most didn't want to be reminded of it more often than that. I know that in my family my parents uncles and aunts blocked it out for decades. It was the generation following, the one struggling with Britain's relative decline in status, that started us off on the perpetual remembrance cycle. All politics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, Gilbert said: According to the Shropshire Star... Mr Cash, whose father, Captain Paul Cash, was killed in Normandy on July 13, 1944, said: "Those who fought and died in the Normandy landings did not do so ....etc.." I can't spot the reference to Germans...it was a comment about previous sacrifices made by soldiers and the price they paid and was "political" so I have stopped there.. You can find in Hansard where Bill Cash made a point of order in a Brexit debate that the Germans killed his father. I doubt it was the only time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, whart57 said: This year the proceedings will be overseen by a king who was born three years after World War Two ended, and he's not a young man either. Is this really about Remembrance when hardly anyone who can remember is left alive? Yes it is I would have had an Uncle, except he died age 21 on HM Trawler Fortuna off the coast, near Eyemouth. He was a stoker, and his trawler was straffed by a Luftwaffe bomber and sunk. Can you imagine? His final minutes must have been terrifying. His body washed up on shore and he and a few of his shipmates are buried at Berwick Upon Tweed. I was born in 1962 and so never knew him,but are you saying we should forget the actions of previous generations who died enabling me to have the relatively comfortable life I have today. As other have said there have been plenty other conflicts. It's the 40th anniversary of the Falklands and there are still people suffering from that not to mention Afghanistan and plenty other conflicts we have been involved in. Remembering them is the least we can do. I do tend to agree on all these TV presenters wearing poppies. I bet many of them do so because of the Poppy police and that they won't be particularly remembering anyone- it just needs to be worn at this time of year. Edited November 7, 2022 by Legend 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted November 7, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, whart57 said: You can find in Hansard where Bill Cash made a point of order in a Brexit debate that the Germans killed his father. I doubt it was the only time. I don't think I'll bother thanks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted November 7, 2022 Moderators Share Posted November 7, 2022 24 minutes ago, whart57 said: The First World War was over a hundred years before semi-permanent memorials to it appeared everywhere, just coincidentally when we had a government bent on breaking up relationships with Europe. Please stop talking nonsense. Virtually every town and village across the country has permanent memorials created after WW1 and added to in WW2. There were few small villages in England and Wales who did not lose a resident in either of the world wars. Herodsfoot - Cornwall Bradbourne - Derbyshire Langton Herring - Dorset Upper Slaughter - Gloucestershire Middleton-on-the-Hill - Herefordshire Arkholme - Lancashire Nether Kellet - Lancashire Flixborough - Lincolnshire High Toynton - Lincolnshire Allington - Lincolnshire Butterton - Staffordshire Llanfihangel y Creuddyn - Ceredigion Tregolwyn - Glamorgan Herbrandston - Pembokeshire Stocklinch - Somerset South Elmham St MIchael - Suffolk Places many have never heard of; I can say I've only knowingly been to three four of them. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, whart57 said: It is politics mate. Why do you think every politician and broadcaster wears a poppy at this time of year? Because if they didn't the Poppy Police would be on to them. Why do you think the number of memorials for civilians, support staff even animals suddenly started appearing fifty years after the war finished. The First World War was over a hundred years before semi-permanent memorials to it appeared everywhere, just coincidentally when we had a government bent on breaking up relationships with Europe. The veterans who actually fought in the two world wars were quite content with one morning in November as a commemoration of what they had lived through. To tell the truth most didn't want to be reminded of it more often than that. I know that in my family my parents uncles and aunts blocked it out for decades. It was the generation following, the one struggling with Britain's relative decline in status, that started us off on the perpetual remembrance cycle. All politics. Politics are banned on this forum. So memorials didn't exist pre Brexit? Deluded imbecile. Liverpool and other football grounds named their terraces after Spion Kop which was a memorial to the Boer War. There is a huge monument to the Napoleonic Wars in Liverpool. And don't call me mate. I don't associate with the likes of you. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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