Hornby 2021 - Mk 4 coaching stock with DVTs

[GordonC]

32 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

80% agree. The only thing you could say is Hornby are no longer the cheap(er) kid on the block, they are typically more expensive and so errors both QC and prototypical can be jumped on (to be fair that was the case before Hornby put the prices up), i wonder how much they would charge if Hornby started adding all the detail say to the underside of the bogies that you can't see etc

I do feel that this forum is now just a lets bash Hornby on everything and everything.

Without naming the manufacturer due to fear of been burnt on a stake they can seemingly get away with anything and everything because well, everyone loves them and won't have a word said against. 

 

Dont you think the criticism is justified though? Hornby seem to have a knack of shooting themselves in the foot, repeatedly, with the models they're producing and rarely seem to be able to produce error-free releases. Most companies will have had a questionable shade of paint used on some of their releases - Hornby must easily have had the most and on repeated production runs so not learning from one release to another. If its not colours its light bleed or large capacitors in seating areas. I'm pretty sure any manufacturer would be criticised for those, but only Hornby have done both.

 

For those 3 holes on the front, was that a later modification on the prototypes so its correct on later releases but not on the IC Swallow ones? I thought it was a solid panel or grille there when they were new.

[BR(S)]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

For those 3 holes on the front, was that a later modification on the prototypes so its correct on later releases but not on the IC Swallow ones? I thought it was a solid panel or grille there when they were new.

 

I've been looking at the prototype with regard to the horns on the Intercity version and it's not as easy to find clear pictures as you'd think.  From the ones I've linked to below, the Intercity one seems to have the three horns set back, rather than being flush.  A panel seems to have been added in front of the horns on the later ones.

 

Best views are here:

 

YouTube video from 8:33 (might want to turn the music down!):

 

 

 Can zoom in on the large size of this Flickr image and get a reasonable view:

 

 

The weakest parts of the Intercity version for me is the horns (might be able to do something about them, either an etched grille or even paint the area black, as it looks that colour in quite a few pictures) and the piece under the cab windows, of which only the lip existed on the real thing (whole piece should only be on the Mk3 DVT).  Don't know if anyone is willing to remove that piece to see what's underneath . . . 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by BR(S)

[jjb1970]

I think the new mk.4 model is nicely done and a good balance between detail and keeping price down. Yes, it is basic in parts but the overall impression is very good and going round a layout the lack of super details is a non-issue. I will say that if given a choice my preference would be for super details but there's nothing wrong with an alternative philosophy of getting the overall impression right and then keeping things a bit more basic.

[GordonC]

14 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I think the new mk.4 model is nicely done and a good balance between detail and keeping price down. Yes, it is basic in parts but the overall impression is very good and going round a layout the lack of super details is a non-issue. I will say that if given a choice my preference would be for super details but there's nothing wrong with an alternative philosophy of getting the overall impression right and then keeping things a bit more basic.

 

Is it really keeping the price down at £75-£85 though? How much more do you get in the DVT for your money over the standard Mk4 coaches which look like £40-45 - does it really cost £35 for directional lighting and track pickups?

 

Yes, the DVT is unique in the rake, but so is the Buffet and the coach next to the Class 91 and they're the standard coach price.

[andyman7]

I'm more than happy for any issues to be raised; it lets me make informed decisions. I am a bit tired at the constant Hornby-bashing (which is not the same as factually pointing out oddities/mistakes/QC concerns), because ultimately they have brought to market at a fairly competitive price models that, regardless of the faults, would be impossible to replicate as kits or bits. Remember the Bachmann Mk2f DBSO is well over 100 sheets and the blue box boys are not delivering any new coaches under £60 these days, that is the benchmark you have to use in today's market. 

 

The other thing is that there does seem to be good availability too - Hattons even have them as a Tier 3 retailer. So this really is a matter of deciding whether you want them or not and buying (or otherwise). 

 

I have an 'old' DVT with a lighting kit on my workbench - my own plan is to get one of the new ones and have a go at improving one of the old ones and seeing how that turns out as a comparison. From what I've read here the two should actually sit reasonably well together as the consensus is that the old one isn't too bad. 

[adb968008]

23 hours ago, andyman7 said:

From what I've read here the two should actually sit reasonably well together as the consensus is that the old one isn't too bad. 

A £10 odd example from ebay made 32 years ago, should not be standing well next to a 2022 version, made in China from the latest technology at £75.

 

You would not expect a £200 odd quid Vauxhall Astra from 1990 off ebay to sit well next to 2022’s new edition afterall.

This isnt just to Hornby but several players in the market.

 

To me this is reinventing the already reinvented… and unless I see real innovation, its easy to just walk on by with so much competing interest… i’ll probably stick with my pre-GNER stuff and just buy the LNER rake… afterall each rake is knocking on £450… i’m wanting to be bowled over, not left unimpresssed.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

23 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

Is it really keeping the price down at £75-£85 though? How much more do you get in the DVT for your money over the standard Mk4 coaches which look like £40-45 - does it really cost £35 for directional lighting and track pickups?

 

Yes, the DVT is unique in the rake, but so is the Buffet and the coach next to the Class 91 and they're the standard coach price.

Bachmann have escaped relatively easily with an incorrect front end on a DRS DBSO, at £149… nearly double the price.

 

The difference was the innovation… if I want a dbso, its that one or diy.

 

Given all other aspects were ok, its been generally accepted by the community.

 

The mk4 DVT has attracted the critics because cheaper alternatives exist….

It might be half the price of a dbso, but it has obvious flaws, which when compared to the older cheaper version, which also has flaws but is also half the price again, its less easier to win the argument… as not unreasonably, people are expecting an upgrade, not more of the same, irrespective the price.

 

This underlines my point.. people are happy to pay more for new innovation, they are more reticent when it comes to repeats / retools and expect more… (AS Class 55 for eg), however if more is offered they will spend…but if it isnt, they retreat back to price… (BH v1/v3 for example)

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by adb968008

[No Decorum]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

A £10 odd example from ebay made 32 years ago, should not be standing well next to a 2022 version, made in China from the latest technology at £75.

 

You would expect a £200 odd quid Vauxhall Astra from 1990 off ebay to sit well next to 2022’s new edition afterall.

This isnt just to Hornby but several players in the market.

 

To me this is reinventing the already reinvented… and unless I see real innovation, its easy to just walk on by with so much competing interest… i’ll probably stick with my pre-GNER stuff and just buy the LNER rake… afterall each rake is knocking on £450… i’m wanting to be bowled over, not left unimpresssed.

 

 

 

It must be a tough one for manufacturers. Perhaps a given model in the range is decent enough but falls short of the latest standards. It isn’t quite the model of the high standard which a manufacturer wishes to be known for. Should a lot of money be spent on producing the ultimate model to replace the older quite decent one? Would it be better to spend it on something else? There are models around which are less than decent – Hornby’s 06 and Saint, for example, and there are models which haven’t been modelled RTR at all. Heljan has spotted the 02. I see lots of contributions from people who say that they aren’t going to replace their large fleet of, say, 47s or who want “to be bowled over, not left unimpressed.” Nevertheless, Bachmann’s 47 appears to be selling well. It is interesting that the top of the range was produced in small numbers to test the waters and sold out rapidly. I wonder how Heljan’s 47 will fare. The 02s as well. Has a little shunter the same appeal as a 47? Who would be a manufacturer? Luckily for us, there are some willing people.

[scouse889]

Received some of the TfW and LNER Mk4s that I had pre-ordered the other day, and pleased to report they were free of the defects that others have reported (no glue marks round the windows or marks on the bodyside, and so on). I was reading with interest about the potential difference between the reds on 91118 and the LNER Mk4s though. Does anyone have both the loco and coaches/DVT that they would be able to post a picture of here?

[The Black Hat]

Has there been much talk of how bright the lights are when running on DCC? I had a shop tell me they were not happy with them on test. 

[adamvb]

2 hours ago, scouse889 said:

Received some of the TfW and LNER Mk4s that I had pre-ordered the other day, and pleased to report they were free of the defects that others have reported (no glue marks round the windows or marks on the bodyside, and so on). I was reading with interest about the potential difference between the reds on 91118 and the LNER Mk4s though. Does anyone have both the loco and coaches/DVT that they would be able to post a picture of here?

 

[Phil Mc]

1 hour ago, The Black Hat said:

Has there been much talk of how bright the lights are when running on DCC? I had a shop tell me they were not happy with them on test. 

 

The DVT has by far the brightest lights of any item in my collection, and that's on DC !!

Have to say though, a full rake (minus the buffet, that hasn't arrived yet) looks impressive on the move.

Not a blemish in the paint, or a glue mark around the windows, on any of them.....😃

 

Cheers,

Phil.

[andyman7]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

A £10 odd example from ebay made 32 years ago, should not be standing well next to a 2022 version, made in China from the latest technology at £75.

 

You would not expect a £200 odd quid Vauxhall Astra from 1990 off ebay to sit well next to 2022’s new edition afterall.

This isnt just to Hornby but several players in the market.

 

To me this is reinventing the already reinvented… and unless I see real innovation, its easy to just walk on by with so much competing interest… i’ll probably stick with my pre-GNER stuff and just buy the LNER rake… afterall each rake is knocking on £450… i’m wanting to be bowled over, not left unimpresssed.

 

 

 

Why? Many models from 30 , 40 or 50 years ago have been well surpassed but a number are still very good for there era. We are not talking about a car or a computer - it is a scale model. If the dimensions, shape and finish are good then it will 'sit well' with a modern model. Items like the Mainline Mk1 Buffet may have been tooled 40 years ago but they were very very good and that doesn't mean they have an expiry date.

[Pete the Elaner]

47 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Why? Many models from 30 , 40 or 50 years ago have been well surpassed but a number are still very good for there era. We are not talking about a car or a computer - it is a scale model. If the dimensions, shape and finish are good then it will 'sit well' with a modern model. Items like the Mainline Mk1 Buffet may have been tooled 40 years ago but they were very very good and that doesn't mean they have an expiry date.

 

I think the point being made was that something good 40 years ago will have already paid for its tooling & if it is good enough to be sold as a new model today, it should not need to be replaced by something 3-4x the cost.

& if it has been replaced by something new & more expensive, then surely it should be better, or else replacing it would have been pointless?

[Wild Boar Fell]

My pair turned up today (DVTs 26 & 29), I must say they do look smart and fortunately doesn't seem to have and QC issues that I can see.

But the first thing that strikes me (not assisted by the underframe colour being grey admittedly) is just how toy like the chassis is, it just doesn't look 'sharp'. I am not trying to have a go at the manufacturer, just expected the model to be comparible to the very good Mk3 DVT. 

I've put in some shots for comparison (I know the underframes are different, but just to compare the approaches), fastening detail, printed detail, even the BIS is a separate part on the Mk3, not so on the Mk4 which has is molded in neither the on or off position on the Non-Drivers Side. Also worth noting that the Mk3 DVT has wire handrails and opening doors.

All in all, more than a little disappointed to be honest. The Mk3 DVTs were up there with the Class 60, this feels like Railroad Range. 

But that's just my opinion.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

Why? Many models from 30 , 40 or 50 years ago have been well surpassed but a number are still very good for there era. We are not talking about a car or a computer - it is a scale model. If the dimensions, shape and finish are good then it will 'sit well' with a modern model. Items like the Mainline Mk1 Buffet may have been tooled 40 years ago but they were very very good and that doesn't mean they have an expiry date.

 

I dont think the intention at the time of Hornby models of that era were to make things as accurate as possible - the Class 90, 91 and Mk4s of the early 1990s always struck me as looking very toy-like and probably more aimed at the trainset market to begin with.

 

Indeed I'd suggest models like the Class 110, despite being produced earlier, stand up far better alongside current models.

 

Things that tend to stand out with earlier models is the fit of the glazing and more of an expectation of directional lighting now. On the Mk4 DVT, there are minimal windows, but they do look improved and it has head and tail lights. But for the kind of money being charged, I think its quite underwhelming. Prices may have gone up, but for £75 I'd expect something to be spot on - not just look 'better' next to a 30 year old toy.

 

For what its worth, I dont think the new Mk4s look too bad, usual QC faults for Hornby which still shouldn't happen, but price-wise they're 'ok'.

[GordonC]

24 minutes ago, Wild Boar Fell said:

My pair turned up today (DVTs 26 & 29), I must say they do look smart and fortunately doesn't seem to have and QC issues that I can see.

But the first thing that strikes me (not assisted by the underframe colour being grey admittedly) is just how toy like the chassis is, it just doesn't look 'sharp'. I am not trying to have a go at the manufacturer, just expected the model to be comparible to the very good Mk3 DVT. 

I've put in some shots for comparison (I know the underframes are different, but just to compare the approaches), fastening detail, printed detail, even the BIS is a separate part on the Mk3, not so on the Mk4 which has is molded in neither the on or off position on the Non-Drivers Side. Also worth noting that the Mk3 DVT has wire handrails and opening doors.

All in all, more than a little disappointed to be honest. The Mk3 DVTs were up there with the Class 60, this feels like Railroad Range. 

But that's just my opinion.

 

Interesting comparison! In terms of the handrails you really need to look closely to identify moulded or separate. I wonder if the separate handrail allows the channel the handrail is in to be finer compared to moulded. I cant say I've ever compared the handrails on the prototypes!!

[Pete the Elaner]

6 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I dont think the intention at the time of Hornby models of that era were to make things as accurate as possible - the Class 90, 91 and Mk4s of the early 1990s always struck me as looking very toy-like and probably more aimed at the trainset market to begin with.

 

 

I must get around to detailing my old Mk4 set. I think the body shapes were good & that makes a good foundation for a detailing project.

I model WCML, so the Mk4 set is a nice extra. Certainly not worth paying today's prices to replace it. I also have an end panel for my TOE; something Hornby seem to have omitted from their new range.

[adb968008]

19 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Why? Many models from 30 , 40 or 50 years ago have been well surpassed but a number are still very good for there era. We are not talking about a car or a computer - it is a scale model. If the dimensions, shape and finish are good then it will 'sit well' with a modern model. Items like the Mainline Mk1 Buffet may have been tooled 40 years ago but they were very very good and that doesn't mean they have an expiry date.

QED, you couldnt have mind my point any better.

 

So next point is why upgrade if theres little wrong with it ?

 

Which is why innovation trumps duplication.

 

Ive already decided to stick with my older mk4’s, i’ll buy an LNER set as its the only new thing on offer. Same rule applies to Bachmann 47’s, AS class 37’s etc. 

 

2 1/2 years ago (before Covid ate the world) I made this post about mk4’s and prophetically I don't think I was too far off..

 

Some 91’s have gone, 455’s are going and still think Hornby could have just tweaked its tooling and rereleased the mk4’s in LNER instead of bowling out shovel loads of cash on entire new toolings.

 

 

 

i predict the older liveries will end up discounted down the road.

 

I cant help but think the only reason this money was spent, was defending territory, rather than customer demand. It feels to me that maybe some short cuts have been taken on these models, with regard paint job quality, certain detail accuracies and engineering quality… which kicks down the road further a reason for me to “upgrade” which feels more like a “sideways move”..

 

i’ll do LNER, maybe tfw but the otherwise big upgrade, it is not to be.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by adb968008

[NewSiding]

Has there been a mistake at the factory in the final production with the raised piece on the bonnet? 

It is flush on the unpainted sample pictures on Hornby Engine Shed https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/marked-progress

 

 

[jonnyuk]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

QED, you couldnt have mind my point any better.

 

So next point is why upgrade if theres little wrong with it ?

 

Which is why innovation trumps duplication.

 

Ive already decided to stick with my older mk4’s, i’ll buy an LNER set as its the only new thing on offer. Same rule applies to Bachmann 47’s, AS class 37’s etc. 

 

2 1/2 years ago (before Covid ate the world) I made this post about mk4’s and prophetically I don't think I was too far off..

 

Some 91’s have gone, 455’s are going and still think Hornby could have just tweaked its tooling and rereleased the mk4’s in LNER instead of bowling out shovel loads of cash on entire new toolings.

 

 

 

i predict the older liveries will end up discounted down the road.

 

I cant help but think the only reason this money was spent, was defending territory, rather than customer demand. It feels to me that maybe some short cuts have been taken on these models, with regard paint job quality, certain detail accuracies and engineering quality… which kicks down the road further a reason for me to “upgrade” which feels more like a “sideways move”..

 

i’ll do LNER, maybe tfw but the otherwise big upgrade, it is not to be.

 

 

100% agree, i plumped for a new 91 in swallow livery but i cancelled the dvt and coaches, i'll hunt at train shows for coaches and a dvt at sensible prices.

[The Black Hat]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

QED, you couldnt have mind my point any better.

 

So next point is why upgrade if theres little wrong with it ?

 

Which is why innovation trumps duplication.

 

Ive already decided to stick with my older mk4’s, i’ll buy an LNER set as its the only new thing on offer. Same rule applies to Bachmann 47’s, AS class 37’s etc. 

 

2 1/2 years ago (before Covid ate the world) I made this post about mk4’s and prophetically I don't think I was too far off..

 

Some 91’s have gone, 455’s are going and still think Hornby could have just tweaked its tooling and rereleased the mk4’s in LNER instead of bowling out shovel loads of cash on entire new toolings.

 

 

 

i predict the older liveries will end up discounted down the road.

 

I cant help but think the only reason this money was spent, was defending territory, rather than customer demand. It feels to me that maybe some short cuts have been taken on these models, with regard paint job quality, certain detail accuracies and engineering quality… which kicks down the road further a reason for me to “upgrade” which feels more like a “sideways move”..

 

i’ll do LNER, maybe tfw but the otherwise big upgrade, it is not to be.

 

 

The feedback I got from one model shop I was in was that the older liveries, such as GNER were selling really well. I suspect actually that the three ones picked, Intercity, GNER and LNER are the best ones to go for an actually might need a second run. 

Cue Transport for wales (black and gold), GNER minus red doors and East Coast in the interim. 

[The Black Hat]

On 24/08/2022 at 14:09, Phil Mc said:

 

The DVT has by far the brightest lights of any item in my collection, and that's on DC !!

Have to say though, a full rake (minus the buffet, that hasn't arrived yet) looks impressive on the move.

Not a blemish in the paint, or a glue mark around the windows, on any of them.....😃

 

Cheers,

Phil.

Interesting. Anyone got a pic of one that has been DCC fitted and lit up? Im actually looking at what sound decoder would be needed for mine too. 

[adb968008]

On 25/08/2022 at 16:11, The Black Hat said:

The feedback I got from one model shop I was in was that the older liveries, such as GNER were selling really well. I suspect actually that the three ones picked, Intercity, GNER and LNER are the best ones to go for an actually might need a second run. 

Cue Transport for wales (black and gold), GNER minus red doors and East Coast in the interim. 

Oh a 2nd run…weve been there a few times too. Hmm.

 

Most things are popular on month 1 release, its months 3,4,5,6,7,8,9…..I was thinking of.

[BR(S)]

On 25/08/2022 at 15:12, The Black Hat said:

Interesting. Anyone got a pic of one that has been DCC fitted and lit up? Im actually looking at what sound decoder would be needed for mine too. 

 

Very bright on full power on DC, but ok on DCC.  No light bleed on either.  The room light was on for the DCC pictures and off when I did the DC ones, but it makes little difference; way too bright on DC either way. 

 

Head and tail lights on DCC (Bachmann older 21 pin decoder, standard decoder CV settings):

 

 

 

On DC, full power applied:

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by BR(S)