Hornby 2021 - Mk 4 coaching stock with DVTs

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, BR(S) said:

 

Very bright on full power on DC, but ok on DCC.  No light bleed on either.  The room light was on for the DCC pictures and off when I did the DC ones, but it makes little difference; way too bright on DC either way. 

 

Head and tail lights on DCC (Bachmann older 21 pin decoder, standard decoder CV settings):

 

 

 

On DC, full power applied:

 

 

 

 

I'm assuming that on DC when part of train with a loco pulling current and not being at full voltage the lights will not be so bright.

[adb968008]

Old and new GNER mk4’s compared…

 

(Top, a 1988 TSO, below the 2022 Buffet) 

length is pretty much identical, seems first time round Hornby got it right. Roof ribs are slightly longer…

end detail on the buffet (right) is more refined, as is the overall roof shape more flattened, which is an improvement. Note also the lights are moulded rather than painted. It did come with added factory fingerprints in glue flash on the end though…

 

the paint finish on both are comparable, indeed its hard to see much difference between them. New and old sit nice next to each other.

 

 

The windows are tinted, and flush glazed on the 2022 model, the older model has flat see through strip glazing. The window frames are over pronounced on both the 1988 and 2022 toolings imo… this is a let down. (Though the door window looks right).

(Flickr url not mine)

I have a hardtime with the bogies thinking its a new tooling, the detail levels are pretty much the same, though one thing is fixed.. the suspension on the 1988 model was pointing downwards towards the carriage centres, when in reality they point downwards to the carriage ends…

 

The improvement on the new tooling is the coach is 1 piece, where as the coach end gaps are evident on the old tooling.

An additional improvement is definition of the steps under the carriage doors, which was compromised by the swing coupling on the older tooling.

 

 

and the obvious difference is the coupling, which is now pivoted and body mounted Here you can see the bogie is a new tooling, but its clearly a nod back to the old one. It includes fittings for Hornbys standard light model pickups.

 

overall impression:

 

Improvements..

 

1. improved ends, 1 piece without joins, better steps

2. improved roof profile

3. Improved coupling

 

no improvements..

1. Window frames

2. Bogies could be much better defined with improved reliefs

3. underframe doesnt seem as detailed at the older tooling

 

verdict…

I’d give it a C - Average

its clearly upgraded and an improvement to the ends of the coach, roof and couplings.

its let down by the window frames, underframe and bogies.

The old mk4 stands up nicely in GNER livery next to its new counterpart.

From standing height, you wont notice the difference.

 

i cant help thinking this isnt money well spent by Hornby, it feels like a “that will do” model. They could have achieved the same with the old coach and not spent the money. Alternatively they could have invested a little more time and truly knocked the old coach into the toy bucket! Instead its sharing the toy bucket with its s/h 34 year old counterpart.

 

If you dont have GNER mk4s and have the budget, then it makes sense to buy new.

if you do have them, or are on a budget. to me its less clear cut…

 

If you lob off the coupling, spin the bogie around, glue the steps onto the body, fit a Roco 40343 (£24 for 12/ £4 a coach) your 90% up todate, with a 1988 coach that matches livery and compatible to its new one…. It will still have the same over pronounced window frames and imo a better underframe, for around 10 minutes effort.

 

My plan, I wont upgrade, but I will buy a TSOE and DVT to update my existing rake as per the steps above, going to look at the same with Intercity livery.

 

As I dont have LNER, (and Hornby skipped) then thats clear “yes” to buy… i’ll avoid the old R3501 set.
 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by adb968008
Edit, it was new in the 1988 catalog, not 1989.

[GordonC]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Old and new GNER mk4’s compared…

 

(Top, a 1989 TSO, below the 2022 Buffet) 

length is pretty much identical, seems first time round Hornby got it right. Roof ribs are slightly longer…

end detail on the buffet (right) is more refined, as is the overall roof shape more flattened, which is an improvement. Note also the lights are moulded rather than painted. It did come with added factory fingerprints in glue flash on the end though…

 

the paint finish on both are comparable, indeed its hard to see much difference between them. New and old sit nice next to each other.

 

 

The windows are tinted, and flush glazed on the 2022 model, the older model has flat see through strip glazing. The window frames are over pronounced on both the 1989 and 2022 toolings imo… this is a let down. (Though the door window looks right).

(Flickr url not mine)

I have a hardtime with the bogies thinking its a new tooling, the detail levels are pretty much the same, though one thing is fixed.. the suspension on the 1989 model was pointing downwards towards the carriage centres, when in reality they point downwards to the carriage ends…

 

The improvement on the new tooling is the coach is 1 piece, where as the coach end gaps are evident on the old tooling.

An additional improvement is definition of the steps under the carriage doors, which was compromised by the swing coupling on the older tooling.

 

 

and the obvious difference is the coupling, which is now pivoted and body mounted Here you can see the bogie is a new tooling, but its clearly a nod back to the old one. It includes fittings for Hornbys standard light model pickups.

 

overall impression:

 

Improvements..

 

1. improved ends, 1 piece without joins, better steps

2. improved roof profile

3. Improved coupling

 

no improvements..

1. Window frames

2. Bogies could be much better defined with improved reliefs

3. underframe doesnt seem as detailed at the older tooling

 

verdict…

I’d give it a C - Average

its clearly upgraded and an improvement to the ends of the coach, roof and couplings.

its let down by the window frames, underframe and bogies.

The old mk4 stands up nicely in GNER livery next to its new counterpart.

From standing height, you wont notice the difference.

 

i cant help thinking this isnt money well spent by Hornby, it feels like a “that will do” model. They could have achieved the same with the old coach and not spent the money. Alternatively they could have invested a little more time and truly knocked the old coach into the toy bucket! Instead its sharing the toy bucket with its s/h 30 year old counterpart.

 

If you dont have GNER mk4s and have the budget, then it makes sense to buy new.

if you do have them, or are on a budget. to me its less clear cut…

 

If you lob off the coupling, spin the bogie around, glue the steps onto the body, fit a Roco 40343 (£24 for 12/ £4 a coach) your 90% up todate, with a 1989 coach that matches livery and compatible to its new one…. It will still have the same over pronounced window frames and imo a better underframe.

 

My plan, I wont upgrade, but I will buy a TSOE and DVT to update my existing rake as per the steps above, going to look at the same with Intercity livery.

 

As I dont have LNER, (and Hornby skipped) then thats clear “yes” to buy… i’ll avoid the old R3501 set.
 

 

 

 

 

Thats a very interesting and useful comparison between the two.

 

I think the window frames dont look too bad actually and you can see on the current model the distinction between the frames on the bodyside windows compared to the different frame on the door window. Are they perhaps a bit more 'rounded' where they should look flatter?

 

The colours look a far better match to what I'd expect with the red looking brighter where I wonder whether there was enough paint density on the old model if the red was sprayed on top of the blue and darkening it unintentionally.

 

The better roof profile, extended ribs and more defined end detail all look good. A very minor thing, but is that 'CAFE-BAR' text aligned properly? Should it be vertically centred in the red band? It looks 'lower aligned'.

 

It does seem a shame while the new one is better that it seems a missed opportunity to be a big improvement on the 30 year old trainset version

[adb968008]

10 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

I think the window frames dont look too bad actually and you can see on the current model the distinction between the frames on the bodyside windows compared to the different frame on the door window. Are they perhaps a bit more 'rounded' where they should look flatter?

 

Yes i think thats exactly it, the door window to me looks very good… they got it right.

But the main passenger windows feels like a bubble of a window frame, when its a raised flat frame.

Makes me want to get a file and rub it down slightly.

 

To have got this would have been the knockout blow on the old one imo… instead it still screams 1988 toy. (the buffet was leant to me to look at, to decide if I wanted to upgrade or not).

 

i’m convinced on what doesnt exist before 2022 (LNER / TFW) but only for the “addons” for prior (The TSOE and DVT).

Edited September 6, 2022 by adb968008

[GordonC]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Yes i think thats exactly it, the door window to me looks very good… they got it right.

But the main passenger windows feels like a bubble of a window frame, when its a raised flat frame.

Makes me want to get a file and rub it down slightly.

 

To have got this would have been the knockout blow on the old one imo… instead it still screams 1988 toy. (the buffet was leant to me to look at, to decide if I wanted to upgrade or not).

 

i’m convinced on what doesnt exist before 2022 (LNER / TFW) but only for the “addons” for prior (The TSOE and DVT).

 

Yes, I think thats the difference, the actual width of the frame round the window looks about right, the depth of the frame off the bodyside is a bit hard to judge with the rounded shape, but it definitely looks like it should be flatter on the prototype.

 

Its one of those things that 'can' be modified with a file like you say, but personally I'd be reluctant to spoil the paint job and possibly have problems matching paint colour or finish with the rest of the coach.

[darrel]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

I have a hardtime with the bogies thinking its a new tooling, the detail levels are pretty much the same, though one thing is fixed.. the suspension on the 1988 model was pointing downwards towards the carriage centres, when in reality they point downwards to the carriage ends…

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I recall at some point during GNER days probably during the mallard refurbishment, the bogies were turned round to face the opposite direction. This was to improve ride quality. Someone may be able to give a better technical explanation as to why this was. So on the original Hornby mk4 coaches the yaw dampers pointed one direction and the new coaches have them facing the other way. This means the original ones are correct for intercity livery. But the new ones are incorrect for intercity livery. Conversely the original ones are incorrect for later liverys ie LNER but the new ones are correct.

[andyman7]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

If you lob off the coupling, spin the bogie around, glue the steps onto the body, fit a Roco 40343 (£24 for 12/ £4 a coach) your 90% up todate, with a 1988 coach that matches livery and compatible to its new one…. It will still have the same over pronounced window frames and imo a better underframe, for around 10 minutes effort.

 

If you can let me know where in the UK I can get the Roco 40343 pack for £24 I would be grateful as the only ones I can find this side of the channel are a bit more than that. They are very useful!

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

If you can let me know where in the UK I can get the Roco 40343 pack for £24 I would be grateful as the only ones I can find this side of the channel are a bit more than that. They are very useful!

First hit on google..

https://www.railwaymodelstore.co.uk/roco-ho-gauge-close-coupling-mechanism-retrofit-set-pre-140mm-12/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwguGYBhDRARIsAHgRm4_CO2KygUt8v6VYCGWQ6o42bZXprxkqOteZzWLLMxPzSfXEXZFxKJQaAo-SEALw_wcB

 

 

[andyman7]

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

First hit on google..

https://www.railwaymodelstore.co.uk/roco-ho-gauge-close-coupling-mechanism-retrofit-set-pre-140mm-12/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwguGYBhDRARIsAHgRm4_CO2KygUt8v6VYCGWQ6o42bZXprxkqOteZzWLLMxPzSfXEXZFxKJQaAo-SEALw_wcB

 

 

Your search terms must have been better than mine 🙂

 

[adb968008]

Practising what I preach, here is the first one…

 

1. remove the bogies, undo the screw and remove the coupling.

2. Remove the wheels and trim the lips ( tbh I just took both fully off, but you do need to remove the “non” coupling side fully, but dont discard it (more later).

2. Fit a drop coupling to the NEM pocket of the Roco 40343 (I used the Heljan standard coupling as I have loads of them, because Heljans models really dont use them !)

3. Add the Roco 40343 coupling, it sits nicely, for a closer connection, I set mine back from the gangway about 2.5mm

4. Refit the bogie, opposite way around (On the 1988 model it was fitted the wrong way around).

 

(Yes the coupling is straight, but note on this fitting, the lip is close to the coupling bar, so I trimmed it back fully to the cross brace on the bogie). There is more than enough clearance, dont forget on a curve, the coupling bar is going to angle too.

 

5. go back to that off cut lip, cut it into 3 pieces. (The rough centre piece you dont need).

6. cut the steps off the old coupling assembly..

 

The steps sit snug to the frame, but gluing it to the frame risks leaving a mark, and theres not much coach frame to hold it… so..

7. Glue the step to the smooth side of your off cut lip, leaving a fraction of a mm overhang (as seen on the left step), this will allow you to flush it to the coach frame.

 

8.  Glue the offcut with step onto the frame, just nudging your step over the coach body to give a flush fit.

 

 

 

9.. ta da !

 

compare before and after…

 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

Yes, I think thats the difference, the actual width of the frame round the window looks about right, the depth of the frame off the bodyside is a bit hard to judge with the rounded shape, but it definitely looks like it should be flatter on the prototype.

 

Its one of those things that 'can' be modified with a file like you say, but personally I'd be reluctant to spoil the paint job and possibly have problems matching paint colour or finish with the rest of the coach.

This is what it looks like closer up..

 

its a very flat rim. The glass is not as opaque as the newer Hornby ones, though they are darker than the original ones too.

March 29th 2002.. (Note the roof damage)… which presumably resulted in this unusual image…

 

 

[Kraken]

I picked up my Mk4 DVT last week. Directional lighting worked as expected, but once I put a decoder in there was nothing. I took a 2nd decoder from another loco that I knew to be good and still nothing. When I put the 1st decoder back in the loco that worked fine, and I could also see it had taken the change of address that I made whilst in the DVT. Both decoders are Bachmann 21 pin. I have a Dapol Imperium in the Class 91 (that seemed to be best option to get the full  lighting functionality) I guess next option is to try that and then return or contact Hornby, but wondered if anybody else has had similar issues or any other useful suggestions?

[rockmonkey]

10 hours ago, Kraken said:

I picked up my Mk4 DVT last week. Directional lighting worked as expected, but once I put a decoder in there was nothing. I took a 2nd decoder from another loco that I knew to be good and still nothing. When I put the 1st decoder back in the loco that worked fine, and I could also see it had taken the change of address that I made whilst in the DVT. Both decoders are Bachmann 21 pin. I have a Dapol Imperium in the Class 91 (that seemed to be best option to get the full  lighting functionality) I guess next option is to try that and then return or contact Hornby, but wondered if anybody else has had similar issues or any other useful suggestions?

I too have had a few issues with the lights. I am using the Hornby Sapphire decoder and found I have to reset the factory settings on the decoders to work the directional lights, unfortunately I have not been able get the cab light to operate - I understand that is down to the number of functions on the decoder, if so I wonder why Hornby made the DVT require a decoder with a higher number of functions than their own decoder!

[JackB95]

16 hours ago, rockmonkey said:

I too have had a few issues with the lights. I am using the Hornby Sapphire decoder and found I have to reset the factory settings on the decoders to work the directional lights, unfortunately I have not been able get the cab light to operate - I understand that is down to the number of functions on the decoder, if so I wonder why Hornby made the DVT require a decoder with a higher number of functions than their own decoder!

 

Because Hornby is Hornby? 🤣

 

I'm still waiting for my delivery from KMS which they had stock of 10 days ago now... 🤨 you'd think even with the strikes and some even that's taking place today, it'd have arrived by now. Got a Trainomatic 21 pin chip waiting so hopefully that works.

[D3489gibson]

On 18/09/2022 at 09:01, Kraken said:

I picked up my Mk4 DVT last week. Directional lighting worked as expected, but once I put a decoder in there was nothing. I took a 2nd decoder from another loco that I knew to be good and still nothing. When I put the 1st decoder back in the loco that worked fine, and I could also see it had taken the change of address that I made whilst in the DVT. Both decoders are Bachmann 21 pin. I have a Dapol Imperium in the Class 91 (that seemed to be best option to get the full  lighting functionality) I guess next option is to try that and then return or contact Hornby, but wondered if anybody else has had similar issues or any other useful suggestions?

Ironically I've got the same issue, well, sort of... I have a Roads and Rails sound decoder fitted to my TFW DVT, and it was fine last week, but I've just fitted another Roads and Rails Decoder to the TFW 67, slapped the pair together, and there's only one marker light showing on the DVT... Not sure what's caused this as it was fine, like I've said, last week... I don't really want to send either back to Hornby or R&R if I don't have to... 

[Kraken]

 

On 18/09/2022 at 19:31, rockmonkey said:

I too have had a few issues with the lights. I am using the Hornby Sapphire decoder and found I have to reset the factory settings on the decoders to work the directional lights, unfortunately I have not been able get the cab light to operate - I understand that is down to the number of functions on the decoder, if so I wonder why Hornby made the DVT require a decoder with a higher number of functions than their own decoder!

 

21 hours ago, JackB95 said:

 

Because Hornby is Hornby? 🤣

 

I'm still waiting for my delivery from KMS which they had stock of 10 days ago now... 🤨 you'd think even with the strikes and some even that's taking place today, it'd have arrived by now. Got a Trainomatic 21 pin chip waiting so hopefully that works.

 

14 hours ago, D3489gibson said:

Ironically I've got the same issue, well, sort of... I have a Roads and Rails sound decoder fitted to my TFW DVT, and it was fine last week, but I've just fitted another Roads and Rails Decoder to the TFW 67, slapped the pair together, and there's only one marker light showing on the DVT... Not sure what's caused this as it was fine, like I've said, last week... I don't really want to send either back to Hornby or R&R if I don't have to... 

 

Thanks all, a few things to try. Sounds like I need to take Imperium decoder out of the C91 and try that in the DVT. I was just a bit puzzled as when I originally put a Bachmann 21-pin decoder in the C91 F0 worked, it was just the other functions I could not activate (turning off rear lights etc.) With the DVT I get nothing at all. 

[SForrest10]

23 hours ago, Kraken said:

 

 

 

 

Thanks all, a few things to try. Sounds like I need to take Imperium decoder out of the C91 and try that in the DVT. I was just a bit puzzled as when I originally put a Bachmann 21-pin decoder in the C91 F0 worked, it was just the other functions I could not activate (turning off rear lights etc.) With the DVT I get nothing at all. 

 

This is the wiring for the DVT circuit board. You need a decoder with a logic level aux 3 output for cab lights. ESU decoders have this (apart from MKL types) and the newer Bachmann chips, would have to check manual for others.

Both marker lights are on the same circuit, so its a bit surprising if only one works. They do seem extremely bright though, I've had to set the dimmer in the chip very low, I haven't checked what resistors they are using.

 

[zoomer1979]

Well I finally got my IC Swallow version of the MK4 DVT last week. Yet again Hornby have delivered a Railroad model for a Premium price. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw less detail on the new one than the 1980s original. What sort of mugs are we being played for! Once again it will have to be worked on to get it to somewhere near the standards expected of the sale price. The old one even weighs more than the new one. And don't get me started on the fact it barely runs the length of itself due to the huge drag of the pickups and details. It's supposed to be ROLLING stock! Plus there's the odd thing going on under the windscreens? To sum up, you would be better and cheaper buying an after market lighting kit and decoder socket. You can have it back Hornby.

 

Neil.

Edited September 25, 2022 by zoomer1979

[JackB95]

17 hours ago, zoomer1979 said:

Well I finally got my IC Swallow version of the MK4 DVT last week. Yet again Hornby have delivered a Railroad model for a Premium price. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw less detail on the new one than the 1980s original. What sort of mugs are we being played for! Once again it will have to be worked on to get it to somewhere near the standards expected of the sale price. The old one even weighs more than the new one. And don't get me started on the fact it barely runs the length of itself due to the huge drag of the pickups and details. It's supposed to be ROLLING stock! Plus there's the odd thing going on under the windscreens? To sum up, you would be better and cheaper buying an after market lighting kit and decoder socket. You can have it back Hornby.

 

Neil.

 

It's so sad to see, given how good the Mk3 DVT was (albeit the lack of light cluster tooling provisions for modern versions). I'm certainly glad I paid for mine at the earlier pre-order prices when first announced. Under the windscreen is awful. So poorly done. I sent a lengthy email to Simon Kohler when the first LNER ones came out. I'm yet to receive a reply after it was forwarded on to the development team.

[BR(S)]

Four of the eight Intercity Mk4s are now in stock with retailers.

[adamvb]

Yep - got mine - but curiously the FO MK4s all seem to have roof vents (I thought these were only added later and even then only to one of the FOs in the set of 3 on a GNER/LNER formation and even then they were at the little window end and not this end) - but both coach G and H have one - anyone know any better?

 

 

[BR(S)]

1 hour ago, adamvb said:

Yep - got mine - but curiously the FO MK4s all seem to have roof vents (I thought these were only added later and even then only to one of the FOs in the set of 3 on a GNER/LNER formation and even then they were at the little window end and not this end) - but both coach G and H have one - anyone know any better?

 

Have they done the GNER and LNER coaches with these vents and then gone and used the wrong roofs on the Intercity ones?  If it's an error, I'm cancelling those fom the order I placed this morning as I'm fed up with all these Hornby errors.  I kept the Mk4 DVT but I'll just wait for re-runs now and hope they're correct. 

[adamvb]

 

42 minutes ago, BR(S) said:

 

Have they done the GNER and LNER coaches with these vents and then gone and used the wrong roofs on the Intercity ones?  If it's an error, I'm cancelling those fom the order I placed this morning as I'm fed up with all these Hornby errors.  I kept the Mk4 DVT but I'll just wait for re-runs now and hope they're correct. 

 

Looks like it - in the LNER ones on R40150 (Coach M) has it - again at the other end (Kernow: https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70111/R40150-Hornby-Mk4-Open-First-Coach-M-number-11412-LNER)

 

On the GNER ones its just on R40165 (coach M) again, and also with it at little window end

(Kernow: https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70100/R40165-Hornby-Mk4-Open-First-Coach-M-number-11417-in-GNER-livery)

 

I made Simon Kohler aware last week after speaking to the technical team who pushed me toward him, but I believe he is away from Hornby HQ at the moment.

The big question will be have they mucked up Coach A - it looks like the buffers/TSOE end is at the "little window" end - but it shouldn't be (as mentioned by others before) - I've emailed about this but fear the image is of a production sample and it also hasn't been picked up....

 

 

[Johan DC]

28 minutes ago, adamvb said:

 

 

Looks like it - in the LNER ones on R40150 (Coach M) has it - again at the other end (Kernow: https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70111/R40150-Hornby-Mk4-Open-First-Coach-M-number-11412-LNER)

 

On the GNER ones its just on R40165 (coach M) again, and also with it at little window end

(Kernow: https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70100/R40165-Hornby-Mk4-Open-First-Coach-M-number-11417-in-GNER-livery)

 

I made Simon Kohler aware last week after speaking to the technical team who pushed me toward him, but I believe he is away from Hornby HQ at the moment.

 

 

I don't think he cares about details... 

[BR(S)]

2 hours ago, adamvb said:

The big question will be have they mucked up Coach A - it looks like the buffers/TSOE end is at the "little window" end - but it shouldn't be (as mentioned by others before) - I've emailed about this but fear the image is of a production sample and it also hasn't been picked up....

 

 

 

If this does turn out to be the case, is it possible to rectify it by removing the body and turning it 180 degrees?