Hornby 2021 - Mk 4 coaching stock with DVTs

[GordonC]

It seems odd when they went to the trouble of tooling up correct interiors for the different APT coaches, but left this one wrong for these Mk4 buffets. I realise the Intercity liveried 2+1 seating will have been a limited part of their lifespan but still its a key livery and I'd expect a significant chunk of the production run.

[scouse889]

1 hour ago, QuoitsPlayer said:

.

That's what Hornby supplied it with, I always thought it was 2+1 lined up with windows with some single seat pull down tables? I've seen the clip on YouTube of the 1990/91? Yorkshire Pullman but don't know the Mk4s well enough to know if some scenes are filmed in the restaurant car or a FO providing additional catered seats.

 

If it is a wrong tooling - which I suspect as the counter is in the restaurant, I'll use an old Mk4 if it has 2+1 for the restaurant seating. 

IIRC, the original Mk4 buffet was worse - that just had the first class 2+1 interior with no representation of the buffet counter!

[scouse889]

1 minute ago, GordonC said:

It seems odd when they went to the trouble of tooling up correct interiors for the different APT coaches, but left this one wrong for these Mk4 buffets. I realise the Intercity liveried 2+1 seating will have been a limited part of their lifespan but still its a key livery and I'd expect a significant chunk of the production run.

Hornby aren’t the best at fitting the correct interior in Mk3 coaches - most of their recent TS releases have the first class 2+1 moulding, the recent FGW buffet had a TGS interior, and so the list goes on. They do have the ‘correct’ tooling for these (albeit based on original 70s/80s seating configuration, but at least the number of seats each side of the vehicle is correct). The recent Mk3 SD XC TFD coaches also appear to have incorrect 2+2 seating in them, and now this on the Mk4s. I guess they modelled the current interior which is correct for GNER Mallard, VTEC and LNER sets but wrong for as built Swallow and un-refurbished GNER.

[GordonC]

2 minutes ago, scouse889 said:

Hornby aren’t the best at fitting the correct interior in Mk3 coaches - most of their recent TS releases have the first class 2+1 moulding, the recent FGW buffet had a TGS interior, and so the list goes on. They do have the ‘correct’ tooling for these (albeit based on original 70s/80s seating configuration, but at least the number of seats each side of the vehicle is correct). The recent Mk3 SD XC TFD coaches also appear to have incorrect 2+2 seating in them, and now this on the Mk4s. I guess they modelled the current interior which is correct for GNER Mallard, VTEC and LNER sets but wrong for as built Swallow and un-refurbished GNER.

 

I'll take your word on the originals, I hadn't noticed when I got one a while back

 

I knew about the Mk3 issues, but since the Mk4 was new tooling and they'd done similar for the APT I expected it to be right too (for a £45 coach after all). I guess the APT didn't have its seating reconfigured during its short life.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, QuoitsPlayer said:

Hi

I have a Mk4 Restaurant First in Intercity livery - I model sectorisation/preprivatisation  does anyone have any plans or onboard photos so that I can  create the counter and a representation of the kitchen area please?  (I'll be adding lighting) also presumably table cloths were on all day in the restaurant and not just at main meal service times? 

I never saw a table cloth on a regular BR operated intercity service.

Maybe 1st class was better in them days but I was just a young scruffy urchin then… stay away from 1st for fear it might end up me being served for lunch.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by adb968008

[JackB95]

2 hours ago, QuoitsPlayer said:

Hi

I have a Mk4 Restaurant First in Intercity livery - I model sectorisation/preprivatisation  does anyone have any plans or onboard photos so that I can  create the counter and a representation of the kitchen area please?  (I'll be adding lighting) also presumably table cloths were on all day in the restaurant and not just at main meal service times? 

 

Another problem with Hornby models! Pathetic attention to detail yet again. I'll add it to my never ending list of problems with their models. Ugh. 

[e30ftw]

 

 

A very small glimpse of a mk4 intercity buffet, in period at about 14mins in this old documentary, unfortunatly the resolution isnt very good

[QuoitsPlayer]

1 hour ago, scouse889 said:

IIRC, the original Mk4 buffet was worse - that just had the first class 2+1 interior with no representation of the buffet counter!

I'll hack the seats out to use the 2+1 arrangement and construct the buffet counter/kitchen out of plasticard. 

[e30ftw]

Here is a better example again about 14 mins mark but turns out its a pullman service, did these have a proper kitchen car compared to the regular service/

[Benjamin Brady]

On 05/10/2022 at 18:10, XChris said:

Honestly, I think* that you will find that next year there will be a re-run with new livery options. You might see things like EC Grey, Swallow no name (as you want), and maybe even another run of GNER for the Pre-Mallard Mk.4’s. There will probably also be another run of LNER stock to cope with how many modern 91’s they have done. Because it fills the gaps with what’s missing and other stock they have already produced.

 

*I don’t work for Hornby, so unless they are stupid then it would make sense. However we all know what Hornby can be like…

 

I have to say I would really like to see the pre mallard set with an refurbished 91. I ordered the current GNER set as it was originally advertised as pre mallard. I was not really happy with the way Hornby changed their mind and after speaking with Hornby was informed it was down to the name chosen for the 91. 

Still not great from a customer perspective but what we expect with Hornby, the GNER set does look good but not as neat as the pre mallard. 

[Pmorgancym]

Oh well a little padded envelope arrived today with a replacement kinematic coupler, spring (as the old one made an excited break for freedom and has never been seem again) and extra nem tension lock.  The DVT is easy enough to disassemble, and the coupler easyish to fix with a pair of tweezers (i tried a dab of pay on the spring to try to arrest and escape attempts).  So good service from Hornby, and I have a workable dvt again…

[Caledonian Gateway]

10 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Oh well a little padded envelope arrived today with a replacement kinematic coupler, spring (as the old one made an excited break for freedom and has never been seem again) and extra nem tension lock.  The DVT is easy enough to disassemble, and the coupler easyish to fix with a pair of tweezers (i tried a dab of pay on the spring to try to arrest and escape attempts).  So good service from Hornby, and I have a workable dvt again…

That's interesting, they want me to send my DVT in for a quality check despite the fact the coupler is clearly broken so all it would do is confirm this. I have not got round to sending it yet but will call them on Monday to see if they can just send me a replacement as well to save the hassle of posting it to them.

[Pmorgancym]

On 15/10/2022 at 16:24, rxj27 said:

That's interesting, they want me to send my DVT in for a quality check despite the fact the coupler is clearly broken so all it would do is confirm this. I have not got round to sending it yet but will call them on Monday to see if they can just send me a replacement as well to save the hassle of posting it to them.

I was rather miffed at first that they didn’t offer to repair it:).  I was dreading trying to fixing it myself especially the spring, but a decent pair of tweezers and and good light and I managed it (and I’m not exaggerating when I say I am a ham fisted klutz)

Edited October 16, 2022 by Pmorgancym

[Caledonian Gateway]

On 15/10/2022 at 16:39, Pmorgancym said:

I was rather miffed at first that they didn’t offer to repair it:).  I was dreading trying to fixing it myself especially the spring, but a decent pair of tweezers and and good light and I managed it (and I’m not exaggerating when I say I am a ham fisted klutz)

They are insisting that I send mine in and won't simply provide a replacement in the post. Not sure why they are treating this different to you 🤔 

[D3489gibson]

Received my DVT back from Hersden this afternoon. DPD doing the honours of just leaving it outside the front door (thankfully my mum was in the house), and they've replaced it with a new one under warranty, which they've tested. Now to get the DCC decoder back into it and take the whole set for a spin on Gordons Lane tomorrow! 

[Pmorgancym]

7 hours ago, rxj27 said:

They are insisting that I send mine in and won't simply provide a replacement in the post. Not sure why they are treating this different to you 🤔 

This is what I sent...

The title was MK4 DVT kinematic coupler...

Do you have spares for the above as mine has snapped the first time I attempted to use the close coupler bar.   The pockets seem incredibly flimsy and the bars difficult to engage.

[Caledonian Gateway]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

This is what I sent...

The title was MK4 DVT kinematic coupler...

Do you have spares for the above as mine has snapped the first time I attempted to use the close coupler bar.   The pockets seem incredibly flimsy and the bars difficult to engage.

That is pretty much what I sent. Very strange. I can't understand the benefit of sending it back to them unless they are going to replace the whole model. Which would be a waste I think but it seems that's the only option I have. I also have two Azuma dummy end units to send back with faulty flickering lighting so I best find a big box...

[scouse889]

On 11/10/2022 at 19:39, JackB95 said:

 

Another problem with Hornby models! Pathetic attention to detail yet again. I'll add it to my never ending list of problems with their models. Ugh. 

 

I have just received a promotional email from Hattons which states that amongst the features of this new model are "Accurate tooling variations for different coach types and eras". If only that were true.....

[phil-b259]

On 11/10/2022 at 20:16, e30ftw said:

Here is a better example again about 14 mins mark but turns out its a pullman service, did these have a proper kitchen car compared to the regular service/

 

Not as such - by the 1980s HM Treasury would have looked at stock utilisation of such a kitchen car and said it was a bad investment!

 

Please remember BR had to jump through a huge amount of hoops to get the ECML scheme signed off by the anti-rail HM Treasury! Thats why we got BR saying the 91s would be used for parcel / mail traffic overnight, while engineers pushed out mast spacing to the maximum beyond what was sensible so as to make going to Edinburgh possible within what the Government was willing to spend (they would only finance going to Newcastle - there was 'no need' to duplicate the electrified WCML being the mindset) - stressing big jumps in efficiency was they key to opening the purse strings...

 

IIRC the only difference between ordinary sets and 'Pullman' sets was the latter had more first-class coaches within the formations. The Kitchen / buffet car was identical and there was only ever one of these per train.

 

 

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not as such - by the 1980s HM Treasury would have looked at stock utilisation of such a kitchen car and said it was a bad investment!

 

Please remember BR had to jump through a huge amount of hoops to get the ECML scheme signed off by the anti-rail HM Treasury! Thats why we got BR saying the 91s would be used for parcel / mail traffic overnight, while engineers pushed out mast spacing to the maximum beyond what was sensible so as to make going to Edinburgh possible within what the Government was willing to spend (they would only finance going to Newcastle - there was 'no need' to duplicate the electrified WCML being the mindset) - stressing big jumps in efficiency was they key to opening the purse strings...

 

IIRC the only difference between ordinary sets and 'Pullman' sets was the latter had more first-class coaches within the formations. The Kitchen / buffet car was identical and there was only ever one of these per train.

 

 

Explains why I never saw a table cloth, let alone Intercity Crockery.

[Markwj]

On 01/10/2022 at 17:11, adamvb said:

 

 

Looks like it - in the LNER ones on R40150 (Coach M) has it - again at the other end (Kernow: https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70111/R40150-Hornby-Mk4-Open-First-Coach-M-number-11412-LNER)

 

On the GNER ones its just on R40165 (coach M) again, and also with it at little window end

(Kernow: https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70100/R40165-Hornby-Mk4-Open-First-Coach-M-number-11417-in-GNER-livery)

 

I made Simon Kohler aware last week after speaking to the technical team who pushed me toward him, but I believe he is away from Hornby HQ at the moment.

The big question will be have they mucked up Coach A - it looks like the buffers/TSOE end is at the "little window" end - but it shouldn't be (as mentioned by others before) - I've emailed about this but fear the image is of a production sample and it also hasn't been picked up....

 

 

Picture on the kernow site suggests the buffers are now at the correct end.

[andyman7]

On 11/10/2022 at 19:39, JackB95 said:

 

Another problem with Hornby models! Pathetic attention to detail yet again. I'll add it to my never ending list of problems with their models. Ugh. 

 

On 19/10/2022 at 14:15, scouse889 said:

 

I have just received a promotional email from Hattons which states that amongst the features of this new model are "Accurate tooling variations for different coach types and eras". If only that were true.....

Personally, I'm not bothered by an interior that is barely visible through tinted windows. These coaches are around £40 which is a third less than full fat blue box coaches. 
On the subject of the NEM pockets and Kinematic couplings, I've always used tweezers to 'pinch' the coupling tails when extracting them from any coach of any manufacture when extracting from the pocket - just relaying on giving the coupling a good tug always seems to be asking for trouble. It shouldn't be so but pragmatism rules

[BR(S)]

57 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Picture on the kernow site suggests the buffers are now at the correct end.

 

Thanks; good to see.  I ordered it yesterday, with R40159, based on the information Hornby had given to @adamvb earlier in the thread and with fingers crossed.  Two more standard class Intercity ones to come and then looks like just the two first class coaches to wait for in a future run with different number (and no fictitious roof vents).

 

Overall very pleased with these coaches and, as the poster above says, for a reasonable £40 with shop discount.

Edited October 27, 2022 by BR(S)

[scouse889]

15 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

Personally, I'm not bothered by an interior that is barely visible through tinted windows. These coaches are around £40 which is a third less than full fat blue box coaches. 
On the subject of the NEM pockets and Kinematic couplings, I've always used tweezers to 'pinch' the coupling tails when extracting them from any coach of any manufacture when extracting from the pocket - just relaying on giving the coupling a good tug always seems to be asking for trouble. It shouldn't be so but pragmatism rules

I was referring more to the incorrect use of the roof tooling for the first class swallow Mk4s - not only the wrong tooling used but also used the wrong way round, which suggests that a complete lack of attention to any sort of detail at all is the fundamental problem. The wrong interior is just another manifestation of this, albeit less obvious.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, scouse889 said:

I was referring more to the incorrect use of the roof tooling for the first class swallow Mk4s - not only the wrong tooling used but also used the wrong way round, which suggests that a complete lack of attention to any sort of detail at all is the fundamental problem. The wrong interior is just another manifestation of this, albeit less obvious.

That, I agree with. Unfortunately use of wrong parts or tooling seems to be a recurrent issue with far eastern production, and has affected not just Hornby