jcredfer Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, LNERandBR said: Sometimes the problem with F1 is it gets too complicated when it comes to pit stops and time loss. It's more complicated when it comes to time then Rallying and thats all based on times The F1 problem is that it doesn't address the times, when the Safety Car is activated. The consequential bunching/compressing of positions allows a number of unfair time advantages to any of the cars behind the leader. II can't be beyond the modern telemetry to adjust the time differences on removal of the SC, back to their SC activation levels, with additions of time for pit stops etc. Teams responsible for basic keeping of the time spacing and adjustments +/- at the crossing go the finishing line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 58 minutes ago, Merseycider said: I have been mightily entertained by F1 for THIS entire season. Those 2 laps in Belgium were exciting weren't they.... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merseycider Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 1 hour ago, chris p bacon said: Those 2 laps in Belgium were exciting weren't they.... Ha ha, nope. So much so I somehow managed to forget it despite the pain I felt for Jack Nicolls, Jolyon Palmer and Jennie Gow as they stoically tried to avoid both sleep and hysteria . OK, I enjoyed almost the entire season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said: However, The Mercedes team's ineptitude in not pitting LH ahead of MV during either incident allowed RB to outsmart them tactically, by no means for the first time this season. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." John They chose to retain track position. They did the best with the information available to them. Had they pitted, particularly under the SC following Latifi then RB stay out, and in the event the SC isn’t withdrawn they have egg on their face as Lewis throws away the championship to pootle around behind the SC on fresh tyres. I think the VSC for Giovanazzi came at a bad time, Lewis was very close to pit entry when they called it, so couldn’t/didn’t dive in where Max did. Hindsight is a lovely thing, and whilst I think Merc’s strategy has been poor on a number of occasions (and not just this season), I can entirely understand their rationale. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 Despite this being 'my' thread, I haven't commented on yesterday's events. My Internet feed was a mite flaky for those last few laps, but I got the gist of it. However, my thoughts are pretty well summed up in this article on Pitpass. F1 is owned by a media company from the land of IndyCar and NASCAR. Showmanship and spectacle are the priorities now. https://www.pitpass.com/71603/Dont-blame-Masi 4 8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Oldddudders said: Showmanship and spectacle are the priorities now. ...and yet donuts are frowned upon, MSC and whoever else who did them not getting the media attention. If I was Lewis I'd have done a couple outside the race directors box followed by a big long number eleven... Edited December 13, 2021 by 298 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) And so ends a season, only memorable for controversy, rather like that year when Rosberg won the championship. Oh well.... Edited December 13, 2021 by Hroth Caught submit before finishing... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: However, The Mercedes team's ineptitude in not pitting LH ahead of MV during either incident allowed RB to outsmart them tactically, by no means for the first time this season. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." John They have made some errors this season, but this was not one of them: If they had pitted Hamilton, RB would have reacted by leaving Verstappen out & the lead would have changed hands. According to the rules, there were 2 alternatives which could have been followed. 1 was to withdraw the SC as soon as the track was clear. This would have left 1 lap of racing with 5 lapped cars between 1st & 2nd. (Masi was going to do this until Horner got on the radio to him). The other alternative was to let all lapped cars pass the leaders. This would have completed on the final lap. The SC then needs to stay out for a further lap to give them a chance to catch up. Either way, 2nd would had no chance to catch 1st. These are the only 2 options allowed by the rules. How could any team predict that the race director would invent a new re-start procedure which went against the rules? 1 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hroth said: And so ends a season, only memorable for controversy, rather like that year when Rosberg won the championship. Oh well.... What was wrong with that? Hamilton bunched up the field & Rosberg defended excellently. All well within the rules. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Geep7 Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said: How could any team predict that the race director would invent a new re-start procedure which went against the rules? Which goes back to one of my original arguments of how can one person be allowed to influence (and be influenced to change?) the outcome of a sporting race? Edited December 13, 2021 by Geep7 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 As many have said, Lewis has accepted the result and with dignity. The argument for ALL on here is how the result was manipulated by Masi bowing down to Horners demands to let 5 through to put Max behind Lewis on new boots and and have the chance to pass him. It was never a given certainty that he would, but it was Red Bulls best hope of Max winning. Masi basically changed the rules at Horners request, and that is what is sticking in everyones throats at the moment. There is no denying Max has earned the Championship, but not that way. Had they both crashed out with 50/50 blame, Max would have been Champion, I would have been gutted, just as I am now, but it would have been more acceptable as Max drove better by having more wins in the year. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 What a mess. Either of them would have been worthy champions, but the situation at the end there was farcical and not becoming of a sport like F1. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, Andrew P said: Had they both crashed out with 50/50 blame, Max would have been Champion, I would have been gutted, just as I am now, but it would have been more acceptable as Max drove better by having more wins in the year. Had the boots (sorry) been on the other feet, i.e. Lewis was catching up on new tyres while Max's were knackered, I wonder whether the overtaking move would have been successfully completed? That is what has left a nasty taste about the new champion. Like one or two recent predecessors, his driving style is less than gentlemanly. I find far fewer such traits in Lewis's driving over recent seasons. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 My old school mate, and Best Man, lives in New Zealand now, and his wife described MV as a 'petulant child', leading up to the race, and she's Dutch! 5 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 That has to have been one of the best and worst seasons I have seen, on one hand a hard fought battle between two drivers (all be it between the last two drivers on the grid I would actually want to see win), on the other so much contrived inconsistent rubbish from Masi and the organisers. Particularly in consecutive races at the bequest of one team purely for their benefit. The decision to release 5 cars was always going to decide the title one way or the other, but surely it also impacted the races of others (I cant recall if any of those 5 cars were in points positions? my anger levels were so high at that point I cant recall) Alas under Liberty it seems that F1 has moved from a sport of the best drivers and engineers competing against each other, to a show in the style of WWF... I hope Mercedes do take it all the way to the court of arbitration for sport and get it heard by someone independent of the FIA / Liberty who's impartiality is rather suspect. I certainly dont blame Mercedes for brining a QC with them based on past performance. Its about time for some rule changes of the situation under ref flag / safety car, at the very least changing the rules so that unless required for safety reasons (ie the stoppage is caused by heavy rain and a change to wets is required) the pitlane should be closed under a safety car, and when a race is red flagged it should be parc ferme conditions. Its crazy that under a SC that has been bought out due to the risk on track, you get a mad free for all descending on the pit lane increasing the risk there. 2 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, The Fatadder said: hope Mercedes do take it all the way to the court of arbitration for sport and get it heard by someone independent of the FIA / Liberty who's impartiality is rather suspect. I certainly dont blame Mercedes for brining a QC with them based on past performance I don't think the result should be changed in court, but that kind of a farce must be prevented in future. I don't think either team did anything wrong (it would probably have been similar if things were reversed), but the teacher director/ FIA making up the rules as they go along stuff needs to be stopped. I don't think the joke of a race at Spa made a difference in the end, but that's another situation that needs to be prevented from happening again Edited December 13, 2021 by Zomboid 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Zomboid said: I don't think the result should be changed in court, but that kind of a farce must be prevented in future. I don't think either team did anything wrong (it would probably have been similar if things were reversed), but the teacher director/ FIA making up the rules as they go along stuff needs to be stopped. Part of my reasoning for wanting to see the result overturned is that it would pressure Liberty to actually do something about this nonsense, if they get away with it there is nothing to stop them continuing along the same route and having further farce results in the future. Maybe the best result all round is to just strike through this result for P1/P2 and organise a one off event for just the two cars, winner takes all.... I know both Lando and Russell have come out saying how ridiculous the decision was, have any other drivers (especially the Ferraris) who dont have a connection to the UK or Mercedes? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisr40 Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, The Fatadder said: I know both Lando and Russell have come out saying how ridiculous the decision was, have any other drivers (especially the Ferraris) who Yes Fernando has - "Justice has been done". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 The FIA, which has delegates from most nations on the planet, is supposed to be an independent organisation, dedicated to safe motorsport within a structured framework. It may be significant that FIA President Jean Todt - formerly a leading light at Ferrari - is stepping down about now, and has not endorsed the appointment of his apparent successor. Formula 1 is an FIA series, i.e. the tech spec and standards are mandated by and policed by the FIA. Liberty Media owns the commercial rights to Formula 1. Go back a few decades and such a concept didn't exist, but Ecclebum made lots of people rich by promoting F1 into a fashionable sport, creating a business a long way from the smell of Castrol R. Eventually Liberty got the ownership, and is now pushing to maximise its investment. It's what companies do. If it is proved that Liberty, through whatever chicanery, is imposing pressures upon an FIA-appointed official, Masi, I call that corrupt. 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: If it is proved that Liberty, through whatever chicanery, is imposing pressures upon an FIA-appointed official, Masi, I call that corrupt. Not overly different from the Ecclestone/Mosley days I guess, (just a few less nazi hookers) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said: Yes Fernando has - "Justice has been done". surprise 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 30368 Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2021 48 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: I find far fewer such traits in Lewis's driving over recent seasons. Hi Ian, I have nothing to add to this debate which will run and run. I would however agree that Lewis has had far fewer incidents in recent seasons (although Silverstone was tricky). That though is far less true when Lewis was in his twenties and still learning his trade as is Max. I can recall a few "interesting" nerfs happening at the first chicane at Monza which, at the time, was not far from me so I got a good look. Lets hope all the somewhat sad legal actions now taking place is quickly resolved. Kind regards, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 I blame Latifi. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daltonparva Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 I hope it goes to court, a judge confirms Masi is bent/incompetent and the result should not stand, but Lewis tells Verstappen/Red Bullshitters to keep the title anyway. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 30368 Posted December 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: The FIA, which has delegates from most nations on the planet, is supposed to be an independent organisation, dedicated to safe motorsport within a structured framework. It may be significant that FIA President Jean Todt - formerly a leading light at Ferrari - is stepping down about now, and has not endorsed the appointment of his apparent successor. Formula 1 is an FIA series, i.e. the tech spec and standards are mandated by and policed by the FIA. Liberty Media owns the commercial rights to Formula 1. Go back a few decades and such a concept didn't exist, but Ecclebum made lots of people rich by promoting F1 into a fashionable sport, creating a business a long way from the smell of Castrol R. Eventually Liberty got the ownership, and is now pushing to maximise its investment. It's what companies do. Hi again Ian, Yes I agree with the sentiments you express, I have hinted at the suspect direction the sport is taking in previous posts. If the FIA regulations increasingly move towards a "standard" F1 car which manufacturers can then bolt their engine onto then its all over for F1 as far as I am concerned. For me F1 was not just about great drivers it was also about great competative engineering to "improve the breed". Liberty will require the sport to become an entertainment with goodies and badies and a close finish and in that respect I think that a number of decisions this year have been designed to ensure this outcome, i.e. the one we got. This approach has both favoured/dissapointed both camps as the season has progressed. As I may have mentioned before, roll on Le Mans 2023 and sports car racing! Kind regards, Richard B 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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