Crimson Lake and Cream or Blood and Custard Coaches in the 60’s

[Fredo]

Anyone any ideas where we could find some example numbers of all types of coaches that made it into the 60’s in Crimson Lake and Cream livery.

Thanks Fred

[Poor Old Bruce]

Do you mean 1950s, Carmine  and Cream? Most corridor coaches were painted this livery with non-gangway coaches being plain carmine. All-over Crimson Lake (aka Maroon) was introduced in about 1956. Blue and Grey came into general use c1965.

[jonny777]

You may have to browse through some late 1950s/early 1960s Railway Observers to find examples of that information. There is a coaching stock section in most (if not all) monthly issues during that period, although how reliable and comprehensive the details are, I don't know. 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

Do you mean 1950s, Carmine  and Cream?

 

This is a long-debated topic I am well-aware, but is there any contemporary evidence of the colour actually being specified or referred to by BR as carmine? If you have found such evidence, I think you have broken new ground.

 

I know that, back in the day, BR didn't always specify by use of BS ready-mixed paint colours, but I thought that there was now a consensus that "blood" was BS381C 540 Crimson, or something very close to it, and "custard" one of the two BS381C cream shades, 352 or 353. 

 

We all know that the "blood" was quite an unstable colour, so that whatever it started out as, it had a tendency to fade quite rapidly, so certainly ended-up looking like carmine, but what I'm asking is what BR intended.

 

Railmatch, who make their living by getting model railway colours right, describe it thus:

 

Agreed in 1949, British Railways coach livery until 1957 was crimson and cream (2312) for mainline corridor coaches and all crimson for suburban stock. This shade is also known as carmine, as it wasn't very close to many peoples' concept of crimson!

 

This highly respected livery history website 

https://www.bloodandcustard.org/ says:

 

The erroneous term ‘carmine’ did not appear to be used by British Railways in respect of Crimson Lake (and Cream) livery

 

And the guys who run that site have put vast amounts of research into this subject and cite the official BR description as being "crimson lake", and give the BS381C 540 Crimson as a match.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Bomag]

Fred

 

If you are less interested in minutia of colours but in timescales then it is important to know that the move from C/C was partially due to the poor protection against rust it gave.  Therefore there was some effort in repainting even recently outshopped C/C stock.  Parkin's Mk1 book indicates that there was a significant reduction in the number of C/C Mk1 coaches by 1958 and that by 1960's it was rare to see one.  This does not mean that there wasn't C/C coaches post 1960, but that most of them were pre-nationalisation designs with short expected life.

[Nearholmer]

I should have mentioned that the Blood and Custard website gives details of known BR(S) sets that were b&c into the 'sixties (not very far in, admittedly) - I forgot, in my obsession with paint colours.

[PenrithBeacon]

The nomenclature of colours is a right pain in the neck. I get the impression with BR that somebody with power and authority made a decision, no matter how right or wrong, and then everybody was stuck with it if they valued their careers. The idea that the 'crimson lake' in the 1950s BR coaching stock usage could be the same colour as the Midland/LMS 'crimson lake' (which is inferred by using the the same name) is just a joke. Best to ignore what BR said it was and use the name the BSI gave it.

There, got that of my chest!

[Nearholmer]

9 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Best to ignore what BR said it was and use the name the BSI gave it.

 

So, crimson it is then.

[97xx]

Could someone clear up for me whether the "blood & custard" livery used black/GOLD lining or black/YELLOW lining?

 

If gold, 'metallic' or 'old' gold?

 

Similarly, was carriage side numbering and labelling in 'metallic gold' or 'old gold' or 'yellow' or straw'?

 

I'm modelling a BR(W) RB Diag.24 Mk.1 and am a bit confused by the range of transfers available.

 

Two very old Mainline BR(W) SK/BSKs I have are certainly 'gold' lined and texted - however I wouldn't assume them to be accurate.

 

Thanks.

[Jeff Smith]

Humbrol acrylic rail colours has Crimson Lake and a lighter Carmine.

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, 97xx said:

Could someone clear up for me whether the "blood & custard" livery used black/GOLD lining or black/YELLOW lining?

 

The B&C website says: "The cream was normally bordered by black and gold lining. Lining comprised 3/8” gold and 3/4” black lines; the latter adjoined the cream painted panel."

 

This is a Bassett Lowke 0 scale coach, in very much not-faded condition, made when the livery was in use, and allowing for the lack of finesse of the printing technique, I think it is probably a pretty good reference for all of the colours.

 

These coaches are JLTRT, in that the red on them fades terribly, to a carmine shade. Most of mine are like that (with added scuffs and scratches), but I have managed to find a few that must have barely ever come out in daylight, and retain their original colour.

 

I've got one stripped and awaiting a repaint, and the original colour is very difficult to match - full-on BS381C 540 may be correct for the real thing in fresh condition, but a test shot of a small piece of primed (grey, yes, I know it should be red) sheet showed it to come-up too dark for a model.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Jeff Smith]

Humbrol acrylic rail colours has Crimson Lake and a lighter Carmine.

[Ken.W]

52 minutes ago, 97xx said:

Could someone clear up for me whether the "blood & custard" livery used black/GOLD lining or black/YELLOW lining?

 

Railway Liveries BR Steam 1948-1968 (Haresnape / Boocock) describes it as

Bodysides carmine red, with cream upper panels lined gold and black

 

The 1956 livery's stated as maroon with yellow and black lining

 

Unfortunately the colour of the numbers / lettering doesn't seem to get a mention, I'd expect it to be to match the lining

[Steamport Southport]

Gold. They used the GWR style of lining rather than the later Maroon coaches which used the LMS style.

 

 

 

Jason

[giz]

1 hour ago, 97xx said:

Could someone clear up for me whether the "blood & custard" livery used black/GOLD lining or black/YELLOW lining?

 

If gold, 'metallic' or 'old' gold?

 

Similarly, was carriage side numbering and labelling in 'metallic gold' or 'old gold' or 'yellow' or straw'?

 

I'm modelling a BR(W) RB Diag.24 Mk.1 and am a bit confused by the range of transfers available.

 

Two very old Mainline BR(W) SK/BSKs I have are certainly 'gold' lined and texted - however I wouldn't assume them to be accurate.

 

Thanks.

Don't know if you are aware but the first dia 24 RB wasn't built until 1960 so never carried blood and custard in BR days although some may have in preservation.

[97xx]

Thanks all.

 

@giz Yes I did wonder that re timing. That's a bit annoying as it's currently the Frankenliveried Lima RB which has serif lettering, and LMS and BR Roundel and 'Dining Car' and I really wanted to B&C it.

 

I think I may choose to flex reality as I'd like a go at airbrushing the dual-colour livery on something reasonably inexpensive/expendable.