Help! I've Begun to Like the Look of Thompson Pacifics.

[robmcg]

Dear readers,

 

I don't know if there is effective medication for my affliction, but I actually like the look of Thompsons A1/1 and his other Pacifics.

 

I concocted this picture of his sole 6' 8" Pacific, the not-very-well-chosen Gresley 'Great Northern' rebuild of 1945.

 

I noticed when looking at pictures of this sole example of the 6'8" class, before Peppercorn that is, that on the drawings by Roche as attached here, there is a note at the bottom right that 'furth Pacific rebuilds are to be streamlined'.  You learn something every day.

 

 

My own picture of the engine in later BR days faithfully reproduces the current Hornby A2/2 boiler colour...

 

I place this post in the Hornby product section because there is so much interest in the current Hornby Thompson A2s. Hope that's ok.

 

Picture is edited and made from photos of Hornby's 60501, 60505, and public domain images. And guesswork.

 

 

 

We'll ignore the poor ride, the leaking steam chest/pipes, the cracked frames,   we got rid of that conjugated thingy valve operation! 

 

Just need a little fine tuning.... and my, doesn't it look good! Why are those senior design people grimacing?

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by robmcg
addition

[Hroth]

TBH I think the Hornby model looks a lot better than the original, it might be the result of scale distancing... Another thing, the real problem with Thompson as a loco designer was that he chose completely the wrong loco to modify as a demonstration of his principles.

 

There would have been less controversy over his legacy if he had selected a nonentity such as Flying Scotsman.....

 

[Bernard Lamb]

There are some outline drawings for various streamlined A1 class machines in "The Green Book". One of these looks more like a "Semi" from Jan 1946.

Bernard

[Hilux5972]

You need to get that credit card out and get some Kings and Castles in the post Rob. Try and save yourself now before it gets too much acute. 

[The Black Hat]

Let's not forget that Thompson Pacific's are one of the easiest ways to see enthusiasts jump on one of the most populist bandwagons in the hobby/sector. 

Most of them merely recount the basic stats of Gresley being a good locomotive designer and had the world speed record with Mallard and a famous engine in Scotsman. He must be therefore absolutely great. While Thompson did put in some more drastic rebuilds the end result was engines that just got on and did the job but were never going to be accepted by the fraternity. 

 

Ask them why they think this and the answers are brief, short and again - basic. Still, many enjoy it as its nice to belong to what they see as the populist group, just as football fans all enjoy supporting one of the bigger more successful clubs. Its clearly seen as a strength to many and reinforces their interest in the hobby or sector, but it skews the debate and interpretation of what actually happened in the past massively. This isn't a case and point for the resurrection of the Gresley v Thompson debate as that's happened loads of times - its merely the fact that the psychology of the fraternity has skewed this topic so much that its reinforced one side massively which is now just accepted as such and that says just as much about enthusiasts as it does about interpreting the past. 

So yeah.. you might like the engines, many other obviously do too - as they will allow many to complete the line up of Eastern region Pacific's.  But dare they admit that actually Thompson wasnt bad and it was circumstance that forced his hand? (again not a cue for replies or kicking off the debate)

Other easy targets with the same effect are:

1. SDJR was a glorious railway and should never have been scrapped. 
2. All Western region engines look the same (never developed over years)
3. The best steam locomotive designer was...
4. The Southern railway never designed a good steam engine, they just badly copied others

5. Class 66 is an awful engine because it got rid of all the others

6. BR was great and efficient organisation. Privatisation has failed and is an awful system by comparison

7. Pacers are dreadful and they did not save branch lines. 

Plus many more...  

[MikeParkin65]

8 hours ago, robmcg said:

Dear readers,

 

I don't know if there is effective medication for my affliction, but I actually like the look of Thompsons A1/1 and his other Pacifics.

 

I concocted this picture of his sole 6' 8" Pacific, the not-very-well-chosen Gresley 'Great Northern' rebuild of 1945.

 

I noticed when looking at pictures of this sole example of the 6'8" class, before Peppercorn that is, that on the drawings by Roche as attached here, there is a note at the bottom right that 'furth Pacific rebuilds are to be streamlined'.  You learn something every day.

 

 

My own picture of the engine in later BR days faithfully reproduces the current Hornby A2/2 boiler colour...

 

I place this post in the Hornby product section because there is so much interest in the current Hornby Thompson A2s. Hope that's ok.

 

Picture is edited and made from photos of Hornby's 60501, 60505, and public domain images. And guesswork.

 

 

 

We'll ignore the poor ride, the leaking steam chest/pipes, the cracked frames,   we got rid of that conjugated thingy valve operation! 

 

Just need a little fine tuning.... and my, doesn't it look good! Why are those senior design people grimacing?

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Lovely picture and a good rationale for your growing admiration of these awkward looking locos. Streamlining would have been very interesting. Have you got a reference for those green cylinder covers though - I’ve always assumed they are black as per other ex LNER pacifics

[tomparryharry]

Oh, dearie me! Woe, Woe and Thrice Woe! I'll answer those statements in order. 

 

1, Correct. The S&D shouldn't  have been closed, let alone scrapped.  Just senior local managers with an axe to grind. Same for the Southern beyond Waterloo.....

2, Correct. Western locomotives all looked the same, because the business dictated that approach. When you reach Nirvana, why change it?

3,  Daniel Gooch. He started at the beginning, all the way to Riddles. 

4,  When you can differentiate between 'engine', and 'locomotive', come and talk to me....

5, Correct. See the rationale behind answer No2.

6. InterCity & HST. The defence rests....

7,  Yes,  good business plan.  They've worked through their respective asset value, and are being replaced.  They had a job to do....

 

[Allegheny1600]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

TBH I think the Hornby model looks a lot better than the original, it might be the result of scale distancing... Another thing, the real problem with Thompson as a loco designer was that he chose completely the wrong loco to modify as a demonstration of his principles.

 

There would have been less controversy over his legacy if he had selected a nonentity such as Flying Scotsman.....

 

To be perfectly honest, I consider that Thompson’s rebuilds were simply ugly.

Leaving aside the malicious choices he made, his predecessor built good looking machines, Thompson didn’t.

End of discussion!

[The Black Hat]

27 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Oh, dearie me! Woe, Woe and Thrice Woe! I'll answer those statements in order. 

 

1, Correct. The S&D shouldn't  have been closed, let alone scrapped.  Just senior local managers with an axe to grind. Same for the Southern beyond Waterloo.....

 

Hook. Line. Sinker. 

 

The S&D isn't scrapped. In fact most of the line still has a service train today.... that's why I put JR in bold.

As for the rest, thanks for proving they are all easy targets. Allegheny1600 has already found you on the bandwagon too. 

[The Black Hat]

34 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

Leaving aside the malicious choices he made, his predecessor built good looking machines, Thompson didn’t.

End of discussion!

 

I'll just park this here then... 

 

[Hroth]

48 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Lovely picture and a good rationale for your growing admiration of these awkward looking locos. Streamlining would have been very interesting. Have you got a reference for those green cylinder covers though - I’ve always assumed they are black as per other ex LNER pacifics

 

I can imagine Thompson streamliners looking more like a Bulleid "airsmoothed" Pacific.  He certainly wouldn't have used Gresley streamlined shapes as on the W1, P2 or A4 locos, and I doubt that he would do anything like a Stanier Bathtub.  Perhaps someone could get sone green Plasticene and see how the application of Collett streamlining would work... 

 

As for his bad press, I suppose its just a Marmite thing.

 

[tomparryharry]

43 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

 

Hook. Line. Sinker. 

 

The S&D isn't scrapped. In fact most of the line still has a service train today.... that's why I put JR in bold.

As for the rest, thanks for proving they are all easy targets. Allegheny1600 has already found you on the bandwagon too. 

 

Hello David, I didn't fall for anything, did I? I hoped it was a straight answer to a straight set of allegations./ questions/ statements.  They are, indeed, easy targets, but, they are also easy answers. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[The Black Hat]

7 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Hello David, I didn't fall for anything, did I? I hoped it was a straight answer to a straight set of allegations./ questions/ statements.  They are, indeed, easy targets, but, they are also easy answers. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

S&D isnt scrapped. Stockton and Darlington is still running... S&DJR was lifted... and as much as anyone can be pedantic about engine/locomotive terminology people are free to have their own views.

 

I do like how people gravitate to things and its interesting seeing people validate views as much as why they hold them - but that's the point and that's the fun. It might be nicer if people did think more themselves rather than just follow populist ideas but there's safety in numbers and some people just prefer it that way. (Whether you do or not is entirely up to you). 

[tomparryharry]

Oh dear! You're inviting the 'Pedant Mode On' situation!

 

That's how propellers and airscrews  story came about.  Or... " Send 3'/4", I'm going to a dance".  ( Send re-enforcements, I'm going to advance...

 

Nice.

 

However, in my defence, I've never had an interest in L&NER Pacifics. There's probably nothing wrong with them, just I've never had anything to do with them.  

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

Other easy targets with the same effect are:

1. SDJR was a glorious railway and should never have been scrapped. 
2. All Western region engines look the same (never developed over years)
3. The best steam locomotive designer was...
4. The Southern railway never designed a good steam engine, they just badly copied others

5. Class 66 is an awful engine because it got rid of all the others

6. BR was great and efficient organisation. Privatisation has failed and is an awful system by comparison

7. Pacers are dreadful and they did not save branch lines. 

 

Just a wind-up list.  Agreeing or disageeing to the statements gives the proposer of the list the opportunity to poke fun at the respondent.  Pure trollism.

 

 

[The Black Hat]

1 minute ago, Hroth said:

 

Just a wind-up list.  Agreeing or disageeing to the statements gives the proposer of the list the opportunity to poke fun at the respondent.  Pure trollism.

 

 

Not a wind up list. The problem with some of the populist ideas is that they then get defended to a point where they become sacrosanct and then others just shut down or ignore other ideas or opinions. That's never good but perhaps one reason why a gentle trolling might just be a bit healthy.   

[tomparryharry]

22 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

 

Not a wind up list. The problem with some of the populist ideas is that they then get defended to a point where they become sacrosanct and then others just shut down or ignore other ideas or opinions. That's never good but perhaps one reason why a gentle trolling might just be a bit healthy.   

 

Gentle Trolling?  GENTLE Trolling?  Listen mate, Gentle trolling is all very well, until someone shoves a pencil up 'yer bum!

[atom3624]

Back to the OP, Rob, you don't need help, you need a straightjacket !!  

 

Joking aside, I'm hoping my Fox's lining arrives today.

No reason why not, so assuming the application proceeds as intended, I'll post up photos when done.

 

I'm feeling a little 'calmer' these last couple of days, so cannot be jeopardised by 'work-related frustrations'!!

 

Al.

[D9020 Nimbus]

I often wonder what would have happened if Oliver Bulleid had remained with the LNER and succeeded Gresley…

[Flying Pig]

32 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I often wonder what would have happened if Oliver Bulleid had remained with the LNER and succeeded Gresley…

 

You have a strong constitution.

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

I can imagine Thompson streamliners looking more like a Bulleid "airsmoothed" Pacific.  He certainly wouldn't have used Gresley streamlined shapes as on the W1, P2 or A4 locos, and I doubt that he would do anything like a Stanier Bathtub.  Perhaps someone could get sone green Plasticene and see how the application of Collett streamlining would work... 

 

As for his bad press, I suppose its just a Marmite thing.

 

See the April 1946 drawing for the proposed A1. Green Book again.

It looks very much like an A4.

His later proposed designs even had the cylinders in the correct location.

Bernard

[davidw]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

See the April 1946 drawing for the proposed A1. Green Book again.

It looks very much like an A4.

His later proposed designs even had the cylinders in the correct location.

Bernard

Wasn't the proposed Streamlined A1 a Peppercorn design?

[robmcg]

10 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Lovely picture and a good rationale for your growing admiration of these awkward looking locos. Streamlining would have been very interesting. Have you got a reference for those green cylinder covers though - I’ve always assumed they are black as per other ex LNER pacifics

 

Google images...   in the dozen or so I looked at mostly BR era, all b+w , the tone in several was clearly more like the boiler than the smokebox, but in most it could have been black, so I took a punt. I'm usually wrong,  but maybe at different times? Lawd knows 60113 was in the shops about 50 times in its 17 years,   

 

I will be concocting more images so can always change things. 

[Les1952]

Thompson's Pacifics had faults that Gresley's didn't largely related to the amount of boiler and therefore weight swinging around in front of the first pair of driving wheels.  They also didn't have the same elegance as Gresley's.

 

However an A2/3 was rostered onto a very heavy ECML freight that a 9F couldn't cope with- provided it could start the train it could keep it going faster than the 9F and was quicker up Stoke bank with it.  

The A1/1 was a bit of a failure by ECML standards, running comparatively low mileages between shopping and spending a bit too long in works when it did, but compare its statistics after rebuilding with locos from other railways and the picture changes- it compares well with a King, for instance.

The Thompson A2s transferred to the Caledonian late in their careers also seemed better thought of that the A4s that went- strong enough to compare with the Duchesses and one less set of inside valve gear to oil round.  The A4s suffered from being at a shed that didn't understand the conjugated valve gear, a pointer to why the last survivors were the Aberdeen allocated ones.

 

Not all bad- not really top link locos but the LNER lines needed strong mixed-traffic engines that could keep a heavy freight going at a high average speed for mile after mile.  For instance there were eighteen daily paths in each direction requiring a fitted freight to keep up a 60mph average from Doncaster to Peterborough (source- Peter Coster's books).  That needs big locos that can run quickly without the kudos of having a streamlined express behind them...

 

Les 

[robmcg]

9 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

....

 

I do like how people gravitate to things and its interesting seeing people validate views as much as why they hold them - but that's the point and that's the fun. It might be nicer if people did think more themselves rather than just follow populist ideas but there's safety in numbers and some people just prefer it that way. (Whether you do or not is entirely up to you). 

 

There is a bit of the crowd follower thing on RMweb but there are many who enjoy relaxed, often humorous, debate, and objectivity. It's actually quite an unusual forum in that it does not descend into petty personal argument.  Thanks to AY and team. And it's free!