Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Or, alternatively, how soon an unmanageable number of said public servants just decide enough is enough and pack their jobs in.

 

After all, there's no shortage of vacancies in other fields, and a lorry cab, for instance, is a much safer working environment (Covid-wise) than a school or hospital. Most of the time, less stressful, too.....

 

John 

 

John

 

My daughter after 20+ years (18 of them in a sometimes very stressful and unpleasant environment) gave up working for a local government organisation) which included 6 months off due to work related PTSD and a second period of stress related illness brought on what her employers accepted was over work and unsupported by senior management. Her employers were desperate to keep her and offered many alternative roles. The simple fact is the job is not now what it was, too few staff and too much box ticking. Thankfully with the support from her husband she is embarking on a new career which is totally different

 

This can be said in every walk of life, my last employment changed totally in 11 years and the company to survive changed from an employee friendly format, to a very modern commercial outfit. My previous career for 30 years changed out of all proportion where both bean counters and compliance departments ruled

 

Where are the banks these days let alone the bank managers!!, everywhere you look there seems to be less staff. Look how railways were staffed 100 years ago

 

As for the NHS it seems over the past few years doctors are being aided by highly trained medical staff, to me this seems forward thinking  

[Nearholmer]

The onward, and frequently dehumanising, march of "efficiency".

 

If you take a long view, it began as soon as most people moved off the land, where seasons and weather set the rythmn, into factories, offices, and shops, where the clock sets the rythmn, and relentless competition sets the pace, and even where competition doesn't exist it sets the attitudinal and behavioural expectations by proxy.

 

Its almost certainly got harsher for what used to be called white-collar personnel in the past 30-40 years, as IT first made many such jobs measurable, then began to supplant them, so that now many white collar jobs are up against the robots in a way that blue-collar jobs have been for a long time.

 

The weird thing is that we have a tendency to vote for more of it, rather than less, even though we all hate it, because when we take our work hats off, and put our consumer hats on, we demand "efficiency", 'cos it makes things quicker and cheaper.

 

I have no idea what the solution is, but I suppose Step 1 in finding a solution to a problem is to realise that there actually is a problem.

[rocor]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Indeed, there was a radio discussion the other day as to how elderly care might need to be largely robotised in the surprisingly near future (as soon as technology permits) without drastic liberalisation of immigration.

 

The problem, of course, being that the latter can't happen without we oldies voting for a change of government, which doesn't seem all that likely....

 

Don't look at me, I live in a constituency so safe that it won't change hands before hell freezes over.

 

John

 

Being ministered to by a care-bot could be preferable to, for example, having a carer whose only motivation for accepting the job being, that they would have their benefits cut if they didn't.

[Hobby]

26 minutes ago, hayfield said:

As for the NHS it seems over the past few years doctors are being aided by highly trained medical staff, to me this seems forward thinking  

 

Our GPs use a Nurse Practitioner and I have to say that she's excellent. My wife recently had issues which 111 was useless at trying to sort (10 hour wait for a call back from a doctor!) but she was able to sort out, by phone, in short order. Thinking about it, other than her specialist at the QE in Brum, neither my wife or I have actually seen one of our GPs for over a year, everything has been dealt with by the specialist nurses (Diabetes, Asthma, etc) at the surgery.

 

I feel that too many people want to see a GP when for most of the time the Nurse or someone else in the chain (such as a Pharmacist) would do just as well. If more people did that rather than demand that they see their GP for even trivial things the GPs would be able to give a much better service.

 

Makes you think, eh!

[woodenhead]

It all depends on who you get as a Doctor or Nurse Practitioner.

 

Our nurse practitioner unfortunately used her new found power to ridicule, make negative decisions over long standing prescriptions(for life long conditions) and told me I had a conditionn that was completely incorrect and came out of the blue during a conversation about something completely different.

 

Then there is the situation of trying to see or speak to someone - AskMyGP turned off for new requests early morning and you are not allowed to ring up for an appointment, so what do you do?  It's all getting a little ridiculous and this from someone who sees a doctor once every couple of years or so.

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Our GPs use a Nurse Practitioner and I have to say that she's excellent. My wife recently had issues which 111 was useless at trying to sort (10 hour wait for a call back from a doctor!) but she was able to sort out, by phone, in short order. Thinking about it, other than her specialist at the QE in Brum, neither my wife or I have actually seen one of our GPs for over a year, everything has been dealt with by the specialist nurses (Diabetes, Asthma, etc) at the surgery.

 

I feel that too many people want to see a GP when for most of the time the Nurse or someone else in the chain (such as a Pharmacist) would do just as well. If more people did that rather than demand that they see their GP for even trivial things the GPs would be able to give a much better service.

 

Makes you think, eh!

 

 

As you say, many times I either needed a quick check up or advice, in all but one instance the service was superb. If a doctor referral was needed then it was actioned. Even the practice Pharmacist gets involved. Now the system has evolved/bedded in it seems to be working well and frees up the doctors time for the more serious cases

[Welchester]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

President Macron causing a merd-storm by saying how he will hassle people to get vaccinated.

 

"The word used by Mr Macron - emmerder - is a vulgar term meaning to annoy"

 

Off topic, but that's why the Toyota MR2 was sold as the MR in France.

 

Quote

In French-speaking markets, the vehicle was renamed Toyota MR because the abbreviation "MR2" sounds like a profanity when spoken in French. (Wikipedia)

 

Please excuse my irrelevance. I've got to do something to pass the time while self isolating.

[EddieB]

Funnily enough, we have a friend staying with us who works in the NHS, and our topic of conversation was about streamlining the inefficiencies within that organisation.

 

The biggest bottleneck is access to GPs - worse all through Covid - and consequent pressure put on other gateway services (A&E, 111).  You can’t really blame the public, many of whom only access the health service rarely, not to know that many GP appointments can be better dealt with by a practice nurse or a pharmacist.  (Though many would prefer to get a free prescription via a GP than paying over the counter at a pharmacy).

 

There seems to be, as in many other organisations, that management is seen as a function of seniority rather than organisational abilities.  Being able to direct patients to the right skill set (bearing in mind that not all GPs are alike, e.g. time management) can improve efficiency and level of care.

 

Simple things, which could make a great deal of difference.

[Reorte]

52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The onward, and frequently dehumanising, march of "efficiency".

 

If you take a long view, it began as soon as most people moved off the land, where seasons and weather set the rythmn, into factories, offices, and shops, where the clock sets the rythmn, and relentless competition sets the pace, and even where competition doesn't exist it sets the attitudinal and behavioural expectations by proxy.

 

Its almost certainly got harsher for what used to be called white-collar personnel in the past 30-40 years, as IT first made many such jobs measurable, then began to supplant them, so that now many white collar jobs are up against the robots in a way that blue-collar jobs have been for a long time.

 

The weird thing is that we have a tendency to vote for more of it, rather than less, even though we all hate it, because when we take our work hats off, and put our consumer hats on, we demand "efficiency", 'cos it makes things quicker and cheaper.

 

I have no idea what the solution is, but I suppose Step 1 in finding a solution to a problem is to realise that there actually is a problem.

Amen to that! You're touching on something that I really feel strongly about and is up there among my main reasons for being very depressed about the future...

 

A big problem with dealing with it is running in to the all too common black and white attitude. Don't like something very modern - "Oh, you'd prefer to be a Victorian factory worker / medieval peasant  / caveman then?" nonsense. There are definitely situations where it's very much worth applying, others where I regard it as, at best, pointless, and at worst actively destructive.

 

Then there are the economic issues and the entire feedback system that not only rewards such a direction, but makes it pretty close to impossible for any business to even exist that doesn't (at least as long as it doesn't just find a small niche and is happy to stay small). People won't routinely pay more for the same thing they can get cheaper. They might, sadly, use the wrong argument, pointing to "this is good because it helps deal with poverty," even though it doesn't really, not once you get past the point where the overall economy is large enough to keep everyone in a comfortable life and the reasons for poverty are down to inequality rather than total wealth.

[Nick C]

38 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Then there is the situation of trying to see or speak to someone - AskMyGP turned off for new requests early morning and you are not allowed to ring up for an appointment, so what do you do?  It's all getting a little ridiculous and this from someone who sees a doctor once every couple of years or so.

Similar here - you have to go through the online triage system now to get any kind of appointment. Not especially useful when the triage questions don't have the relevant options, or a 'none of the above'!

[Nearholmer]

Our surgery has a couple of people (I can’t remember their job title) who take the first call for appointment/advice, and on the basis of a quick description of the issue then route one to a GP, practise nurse etc.
 

This seems to work quite well, especially if the issue is likely to involve blood tests, or other diagnostic tests, because one gets the tests first, then talks with the GP who has the results in front of them - the old system involved two GP sessions, one to get sent for tests, and another to discuss action in light of the results.

 

All GP appointments currently start with a phone conversation, which the one time I needed it seemed to work very well, but some pals get really annoyed with it, not being at all happy without face-to-face.

 

As usual, practise varies widely between surgeries, and things get pretty convoluted if the hospital or community cardiologist is involved, especially if both are in the game, because the arrangements for information sharing are antediluvian. I can take my car to any VW dealer on the planet, and they can easily access its entire history; take me to the NHS, and my history seems to live in several different, disconnected silos.

 

Anyway, I was happy at the end of it all, because the final decision was there was nothing serious wrong with me, and that I can carry on as before, with no medication!

 

 

[monkeysarefun]

In a surprise move given tennis players are the most important people in the world in their own minds and those of Tennis Australia it looks like antivax ball hitter Novak Djokovic may not be allowed in to play the Australian Open. 

Getting around the rules that all international arrivals must be vaccinated by obtaining a dubious medical exemption aided and abetted by the tennis Australia clowns and the  federal government he was due to come in until a legal bungle in the awarding of  the medical exemption was picked up by Border Force which required extra permission from the Victorian State government to resolve.

 

The state government, aware of the white hot anger Djokovic's Visa has caused amongst Victorians who have undergone the world's harshest lockdowns and major deprivations only to see a tennis player having the rules twisted in their favour is currently refusing to resolve the issue.

 

No doubt enough whinging from Tennis Australia will melt their hearts, and if not Border Force can override them,  but even if he does make it through customs he can expect an overwhelming hostile response so I don't know why he just doesn't give up and spend the time hitting fluffy  balls back and forward over a net in someone else's country instead.

Edited January 5, 2022 by monkeysarefun

[Dunsignalling]

I only live 200 yards from our health centre so walk up and ask at reception in person; it's quicker than listening to all the messages played before you get to phone triage. Receptionist was highly amused when I told her this!

 

In these peculiar times "normal" is to see a nurse practitioner or be booked for a telephone consultation with GP, same day or next, occasionally face-to-face but that usually involves a 2/3-day wait. 

 

For my most recent face to face with GP, a week before Christmas, she summoned  me! I thought my sample had revealed I must be really ill....

 

I've unfortunately had to "bother" the NHS more in the last three months than the previous three decades, and it's been 99% bloody marvellous. 

 

John

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dick Turpin]

The conversation made me think of this...

[EddieB]

7 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

In a surprise move given tennis players are the most important people in the world in their own minds and those of Tennis Australia it looks like antivax ball hitter Novak Djokovic may not be allowed in to play the Australian Open. 

Getting around the rules that all international arrivals must be vaccinated by obtaining a dubious medical exemption aided and abetted by the tennis Australia clowns and the  federal government he was due to come in until a legal bungle in the awarding of  the medical exemption was picked up by Border Force which required extra permission from the Victorian State government to resolve.

 

The state government, aware of the white hot anger Djokovic's Visa has caused amongst Victorians who have undergone the world's harshest lockdowns and major deprivations only to see a tennis player having the rules twisted in their favour is currently refusing to resolve the issue.

 

No doubt enough whinging from Tennis Australia will melt their hearts, and if not Border Force can override them,  but even if he does make it through customs he can expect an overwhelming hostile response so I don't know why he just doesn't give up and spend the time hitting fluffy  balls back and forward over a net in someone else's country instead.

There are two ways to look at this.  On the one hand Novax Djokovic has been very naughty, and no exceptions should be countenanced - certainly not based on wealth or celebrity status.  On the other, he is reported to have had Coronavirus and most likely (one hopes) has been screened for having the antibodies conferring resistance.  He could then open a door to allow all those who can similarly prove such an immune status - after all it should be about protecting the populace rather than just adherence to compulsory vaccination.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

John

 

My daughter after 20+ years (18 of them in a sometimes very stressful and unpleasant environment) gave up working for a local government organisation) which included 6 months off due to work related PTSD and a second period of stress related illness brought on what her employers accepted was over work and unsupported by senior management. Her employers were desperate to keep her and offered many alternative roles. The simple fact is the job is not now what it was, too few staff and too much box ticking. Thankfully with the support from her husband she is embarking on a new career which is totally different

 

This can be said in every walk of life, my last employment changed totally in 11 years and the company to survive changed from an employee friendly format, to a very modern commercial outfit. My previous career for 30 years changed out of all proportion where both bean counters and compliance departments ruled

 

Where are the banks these days let alone the bank managers!!, everywhere you look there seems to be less staff. Look how railways were staffed 100 years ago

 

As for the NHS it seems over the past few years doctors are being aided by highly trained medical staff, to me this seems forward thinking  

Having entered the "dead zone" career-wise in retail banking at the age of forty, I sacrificed the cheap mortgage and went signalling. I thought I'd be worse off and, had I been a family man, I might not have risked it. However, because BR (later NR) actually pay you for all the hours you put in, and at enhanced rates for some of them, the reverse soon proved to be the case. Getting paid for any overtime in the bank had been like getting blood out of a stone and the salary wasn't enough to tolerate that.

 

Best thing I ever did., and it also convinced me that, unless one is a high flyer who can continue onward and upward from recruitment to retirement, staying in the same profession for ones entire working life is probably not a good idea. I'd have been dead of boredom and frustration by fifty had I not got out, I think!

 

John

 

 

[Hobby]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Having entered the "dead zone" career-wise in retail banking at the age of forty, I sacrificed the cheap mortgage and went signalling. I thought I'd be worse off and, had I been a family man, I might not have risked it. However, because BR (later NR) actually pay you for all the hours you put in, and at enhanced rates for some of them, the reverse soon proved to be the case. Getting paid for any overtime in the bank had been like getting blood out of a stone and the salary wasn't enough to tolerate that.

 

Best thing I ever did., and it also convinced me that, unless one is a high flyer who can continue onward and upward from recruitment to retirement, staying in the same profession for ones entire working life is probably not a good idea. I'd have been dead of boredom and frustration by fifty had I not got out, I think!

 

Nearly the same as me, though I went "on board" rather than signalling!

 

You didn't mention the "mission impossible targets" the Banks were all setting us at the time, though! The mortgage was only cheap if you didn't move, I had to, three times, and in each case it made me worse off, I'd have been better with a commercial interest only mortgage but they didn't give the staff the same level of service as their customers so i continued with the wrong mortgage for several years and moves.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Our surgery has a couple of people (I can’t remember their job title) who take the first call for appointment/advice, and on the basis of a quick description of the issue then route one to a GP, practise nurse etc.
 

This seems to work quite well, especially if the issue is likely to involve blood tests, or other diagnostic tests, because one gets the tests first, then talks with the GP who has the results in front of them - the old system involved two GP sessions, one to get sent for tests, and another to discuss action in light of the results.

 

All GP appointments currently start with a phone conversation, which the one time I needed it seemed to work very well, but some pals get really annoyed with it, not being at all happy without face-to-face.

 

As usual, practise varies widely between surgeries, and things get pretty convoluted if the hospital or community cardiologist is involved, especially if both are in the game, because the arrangements for information sharing are antediluvian. I can take my car to any VW dealer on the planet, and they can easily access its entire history; take me to the NHS, and my history seems to live in several different, disconnected silos.

 

Anyway, I was happy at the end of it all, because the final decision was there was nothing serious wrong with me, and that I can carry on as before, with no medication!

 

 

 

Someone joked of our village Facebook page, if our doctors receptionist worked for border force no one would get past her

 

As it happens I have found the receptionists very helpful and cheerful, which must be hard in their jobs. Which I am glad I don't have to do and grateful for their assistance. But it did make me giggle 

[Nearholmer]

The two I’m thinking of aren’t receptionists, they are “back office”, and do a job slightly like triage at A&E. There are maybe five GPs, several practise nurses, a physio etc, so sorting out who to route things to to get the best result requires a bit of thought.

 

If we need to see a GP really quickly, the best way is to make sure to walk the dog at the same time one of them walks hers (kidding really).

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I only live 200 yards from our health centre so walk up and ask at reception in person;

If only! Sherry lives a similar distance from her surgery, but no way is she allowed to walk in and talk to anyone. The doors are locked unless you have an appointment - but don't be early - and if you ring at 08.30, when the telephone system goes live, you will find you aren't even in the queue. 

 

The last time I rang my doctor's phone service here in France, at 11.45, I was in the surgery at 15.45 the same day, and it wasn't urgent. She is Spanish, I am English, it is France. It works. 

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

If only! Sherry lives a similar distance from her surgery, but no way is she allowed to walk in and talk to anyone. The doors are locked unless you have an appointment - but don't be early - and if you ring at 08.30, when the telephone system goes live, you will find you aren't even in the queue. 

 

The last time I rang my doctor's phone service here in France, at 11.45, I was in the surgery at 15.45 the same day, and it wasn't urgent. She is Spanish, I am English, it is France. It works. 

Ours was telephone only through lockdown but, fortunately, things had been relaxed by the time I "took poorly" back in October and everything runs very smoothly. It speeds things up a lot if you aren't adamant about seeing "your" GP as several seem to be job-sharing here; if he/she is off 'til Monday.....

 

My next consultation visit should be in 10-14 days time after the next lot of samples have been processed unless any thing crops up before that. Will probably see my official GP again as she seems to be finding my case "interesting". Not sure if I should be pleased or worried by that.

 

John

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, EddieB said:

There are two ways to look at this.  On the one hand Novax Djokovic has been very naughty, and no exceptions should be countenanced - certainly not based on wealth or celebrity status.  On the other, he is reported to have had Coronavirus and most likely (one hopes) has been screened for having the antibodies conferring resistance.  He could then open a door to allow all those who can similarly prove such an immune status - after all it should be about protecting the populace rather than just adherence to compulsory vaccination.

Having antibodies due to having had the virus must help in giving protection.

However the situation in the UK is that you should have a booster if you had a positive test more than 4 weeks ago.

It depends on just when he gave a positive test.

I would be happy to accept the same time scale for him that we have in the UK.

Do we have the date of his positive? If that is the argument that he is using of course. He might have other explanations in respect of his reluctance to speak out. Any road up, hardly a good example of sporting behaviour to promote to youngsters.

Bernard 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, EddieB said:

There are two ways to look at this.  On the one hand Novax Djokovic has been very naughty, and no exceptions should be countenanced - certainly not based on wealth or celebrity status.  On the other, he is reported to have had Coronavirus and most likely (one hopes) has been screened for having the antibodies conferring resistance.  He could then open a door to allow all those who can similarly prove such an immune status - after all it should be about protecting the populace rather than just adherence to compulsory vaccination.

AIUI Mr Djokovic has refused to disclose his "Covid status" which would also presumably exclude any testing for antibodies.

 

Catch 22, perhaps, and it sounds like the Victoria State government may be playing with harder balls than they use in tennis.

 

John

[EddieB]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The two I’m thinking of aren’t receptionists, they are “back office”, and do a job slightly like triage at A&E. There are maybe five GPs, several practise nurses, a physio etc, so sorting out who to route things to to get the best result requires a bit of thought.

My local surgery appears to operate on a "no questions asked" basis - which means that when arranging an appointment it is with whoever/whatever category you request - appropriate or not. 

 

Our friend's practice has a basic set of questions to direct the appointment to the most suitable person.  (Patients have been known to give false information to arrange to see a GP, not realising that their responses appear on the notes fed through).

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Ours was telephone only through lockdown but, fortunately, things had been relaxed by the time I "took poorly" back in October and everything runs very smoothly. It speeds things up a lot if you aren't adamant about seeing "your" GP as several seem to be job-sharing here; if he/she is off 'til Monday.....

 

I've never specified that I want a particular GP, but that usually means I'm given a choice in which case...