Hitachi trains grounded

[rodent279]

Long time, no update. How is the repair program progressing? What are class 80x availability figures like now?

[DY444]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Long time, no update. How is the repair program progressing? What are class 80x availability figures like now?

 

Slowly, and dire, was the last report I saw.

[Gwiwer]

IETs seem to be allocated at random to which ever duty next needs a set.  

 

Recent experience on the Cornish main line shows that 10-car or 5-car vice 9-car (as booked) is far too common.  One is marginally wasteful, the other leads to overcrowding and both play havoc with seat reservations not matching the stock provided.  

 

9-car vice 5-car also happens which is a bonus but again the reservations don't match the seating plan so the usual response from the on-board crew is to switch the system off and say "No reservations"

 

Which is a PITA when one has booked a specific seat, either because it comes with the ticket as in Advance fares or because one has chosen to do so in order to get the preferred window / aisle / facing / backwards / quiet or normal.  

 

And then there are "reversed sets" as there was in HST days.  Again it should not happen and is often avoidable but no effort is made to rectify the situation which also leads to everyone travelling the "wrong direction" to that which was booked.  It also leads to reserved seating for Cornish stations being in that part of the train which does not fit in the platforms.  The latter point is even more of a problem on a 10-car when one cannot walk through to alight from the "Front 5" and must travel on to the next long-platform station and return.  Assuming that a return service is still available.  

[rodent279]

Are class 387 EMUs still running to Bristol & Cardiff vice-80x's?

Edited February 6 by rodent279

[RJS1977]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

 

And then there are "reversed sets" as there was in HST days.  Again it should not happen and is often avoidable but no effort is made to rectify the situation which also leads to everyone travelling the "wrong direction" to that which was booked.  It also leads to reserved seating for Cornish stations being in that part of the train which does not fit in the platforms.  The latter point is even more of a problem on a 10-car when one cannot walk through to alight from the "Front 5" and must travel on to the next long-platform station and return.  Assuming that a return service is still available.  

 

Some of the reversed sets in recent weeks will have been due to the flooding affecting various parts of the network. Owing to flooding between Swindon and Bristol Parkway trains from South Wales were reversing at Bristol Parkway and running to London via Bath. This inevitably meant that sets were reversed for part of the journey, and depending on where trains were when the direct route was restored, might have led to trains being "permanently" reversed (a train leaving Swansea, reversing at BP, running to Paddington and then directly back to Swansea will arrive back in Swansea the opposite way round to how it set off).

I'm not quite sure wnat the situation was on the Somerset Levels this time round, but on past occasions flooding there has led to sets reversing at Exeter St David's and running to Paddington via Yeovil Junction, which could have led to reversed units in the West Country.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

everyone travelling the "wrong direction" to that which was booked.

That happens anyway when trains are scheduled to reverse en route (Cross-Country at Reading, for example).

[Gwiwer]

14 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Are class 387 EMUs still running to Bristol & Cardiff vice-80x's?

387s are the booked traction on some Cardiff turns so yes they are running but not “instead of” 8xx sets. 

[Gwiwer]

16 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

It also leads to reserved seating for Cornish stations being in that part of the train which does not fit in the platforms.  The latter point is even more of a problem on a 10-car when one cannot walk through to alight from the "Front 5"

 

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

That happens anyway when trains are scheduled to reverse en route (Cross-Country at Reading, for example).

Where scheduled the seat reservation system takes account and should not reserve you in a carriage which is inaccessible because it is off the platform. 
 

Several operators run trains formed of teo units between which it is not possible to pass. That is also common across many other nations so is not a uniquely British problem. 
 

My own quote above illustrates the inconvenience this causes at stations having platforms shorter than the train.
 

It is, of course, a possibility that one wishes to travel between two short-platform stations with a reversal between. For example Castle Cary to Camborne when trains are diverted via Yeovil and reverse at Exeter. A 10-car IET arrives (2x5-car) and, irrespective of any reserved seat held, you can only board the front 5. They become the back 5 after reversal and will not be in the platform at Camborne.  You are trapped in the back unable to alight. 
 

Vigilant staff should assist in re-seating you but that relies upon (a) a ticket check or similar being conducted - with electronic gates at main stations these are now less common on board and (b) the staff member being both vigilant to you sitting in the “wrong half” and ensuring you move forward.  Neither, I am afraid, is a given. 

[Reorte]

Reversed sets? Sounds like we need to bring turntables back. Admittedly one big enough to fit an entire train on to it would be a rather large turntable...

[Gwiwer]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Reversed sets? Sounds like we need to bring turntables back. Admittedly one big enough to fit an entire train on to it would be a rather large turntable...

They are called triangles. Sets can be turned before entering traffic at Laira, Bristol, Swansea and Reading at least. It takes time, resources and therefore money but getting the job right was always important during my railway career. 

[rodent279]

Currently standing all the way from Temple Meads to Padd on a 5 car vice 9 car. 1st class declassified, so I am stood in there (there is more room in the aisle).

 

As an aside, I get the impression from a totally unscientific observation that there is a ride "sweet spot" at something sub-125, say around 110-115. Has anyone else noticed this?

[jamie92208]

32 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

They are called triangles. Sets can be turned before entering traffic at Laira, Bristol, Swansea and Reading at least. It takes time, resources and therefore money but getting the job right was always important during my railway career. 

Don't they use the Greenford Triangle to turn sets between North Pole and Paddington. 

 

Jamie

[St Enodoc]

9 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Don't they use the Greenford Triangle to turn sets between North Pole and Paddington. 

 

Jamie

I was about to ask a similar question - can you still run out and back from Paddington via the Greenford branch?

[Steadfast]

15 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Are class 387 EMUs still running to Bristol & Cardiff vice-80x's?

 

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

387s are the booked traction on some Cardiff turns so yes they are running but not “instead of” 8xx sets. 

1L13 (09.5 something off Cardiff, forms the 10.24 from Bristol Parkway) and it's connected down working is booked a pair of 387s.

There's also one working in the afternoon, about 15.30 at Parkway heading west from memory, that is a pair of 387s, or at least it was reliably a couple of weeks back.

 

Both of these call at Didcot (hence me travelling on them vice IET - a more comfy seat and a less harsh ride), since the timetable change in December it seems less via Bath services call at Didcot, but more South Wales ones do.

 

Jo

[Gwiwer]

22 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I was about to ask a similar question - can you still run out and back from Paddington via the Greenford branch?

No.  the connection at Old Oak Common was severed to construct HS2.  It is alleged that it will be restored when the works are complete but with no booked trains at all and only used for occasional turns and emergency diversions its usefulness was being questioned a long time ago.  

 

Chiltern's "Parliamentary" Paddington - Ruislip train now runs from West Ealing instead.  While this is technically a diversion whether it ever returns to Paddington remains to be seen if the link is restored.   They have always been keen to maintain driver route knowledge into Paddington in case Marylebone were to become unavailable.  However the advent of Heathrow Express and now the Elizabeth Line means track configuration and access may no longer permit such a thing.  

 

In which case a formal closure notice should be served for Old Oak - Northolt. 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

As an aside, I get the impression from a totally unscientific observation that there is a ride "sweet spot" at something sub-125, say around 110-115. Has anyone else noticed this?

It might be a factor of travelling on Brunel's Billiard Table which is a long, fairly flat and straight section of line.  I don't find the same to be true in the Thames Valley, on the Berks & Hants nor on the Taunton - Exeter section where higher speeds are permitted.  I make far fewer journeys via Swindon than via Savernake so any casual comparisons are at best unscientific.

 

It is however very obvious that the 8xx sets are gutless on diesel.  There is no power in them to regain time.  It is typical to leave Paddington more or less "right time", lose 5 - 8 minutes down to Reading largely due to line congestion and then, with the required switch to diesel at Newbury, be unable to regain any of that.  Quite often a few more minutes are dropped.  It is also very apparent that time is dropped climbing the Devon (including Whiteball) banks and not regained.  

 

I remain of the opinion that these units, specified as electric trains and which perform well under the wires, remain unfit for the purposes of long-distance travel on diesel power and equipped only with ironing-boards where there should be seats adequately comfortable for journeys of up to and above five hours duration.  And please can we have fixed buffet counters on GWR; LNER customers have such a facility and also get at-seat service ordered by app if there is a crew member to provide it.  

[Mike_Walker]

5 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Chiltern's "Parliamentary" Paddington - Ruislip train now runs from West Ealing instead.  While this is technically a diversion whether it ever returns to Paddington remains to be seen if the link is restored.   They have always been keen to maintain driver route knowledge into Paddington in case Marylebone were to become unavailable.  However the advent of Heathrow Express and now the Elizabeth Line means track configuration and access may no longer permit such a thing.  

 

In which case a formal closure notice should be served for Old Oak - Northolt. 

No, it's been a little used replacement bus for several years now - see separate thread.

 

OOC to Park Royal has been lifted and will not return.  There are to be a pair of turnback sidings for Elizabeth Line trains provided as part of the OOC station complex and Chiltern have proposed a new two platform terminal adjacent to North Acton LU station but there's not a lot of chance of this happening at least in the near to medium future.

[Gwiwer]

4 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

OOC to Park Royal has been lifted and will not return

A closure by stealth then.  No formal proposal has ever been published for several miles of track which has had an advertised passenger service over it.  

 

Anyone out there want to take a "no win no fee" case?

[Mike_Walker]

3 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

It might be a factor of travelling on Brunel's Billiard Table which is a long, fairly flat and straight section of line.  I don't find the same to be true in the Thames Valley, on the Berks & Hants nor on the Taunton - Exeter section where higher speeds are permitted.  I make far fewer journeys via Swindon than via Savernake so any casual comparisons are at best unscientific.

 

It is however very obvious that the 8xx sets are gutless on diesel.  There is no power in them to regain time.  It is typical to leave Paddington more or less "right time", lose 5 - 8 minutes down to Reading largely due to line congestion and then, with the required switch to diesel at Newbury, be unable to regain any of that.  Quite often a few more minutes are dropped.  It is also very apparent that time is dropped climbing the Devon (including Whiteball) banks and not regained.  

 

I remain of the opinion that these units, specified as electric trains and which perform well under the wires, remain unfit for the purposes of long-distance travel on diesel power and equipped only with ironing-boards where there should be seats adequately comfortable for journeys of up to and above five hours duration.  And please can we have fixed buffet counters on GWR; LNER customers have such a facility and also get at-seat service ordered by app if there is a crew member to provide it.  

Yes they are very sluggish on diesel as I found out last week driving the simulator away from Didcot to do a power change at Moreton.  In truth they were never designed as a true bi-mode.  Had the planned GWEP been carried through in its entirety diesel power would only have been used for fairly short distances beyond the end of the OLE and in emergencies but Failing Grayling (assisted by a now deceased civil servant/cartographer who thought he could rewrite the laws of physics) decided they were the perfect reason to abandon large chunks of the scheme as a result of Network Rail's botched approach to the scheme and failure to manage costs. 

 

As designed, they were never intended to be used on the WoE.  Initially, GWR proposed to refurbish and modernise the HSTs (as they did eventually to form the Castle sets) but under pressure from the DfT it became obvious that the HSTs were no longer an option so First Group went for the 802s instead.  The 802s were fitted with more powerful engines to tackle the Devon and Cornish banks and the 800s have since been uprated to the same but in both fleets there are currently up to a quarter of the fleet running round with at least one engine isolated due to Hitachi's inability to keep pace with failures.  A unit missing one engine is even worse in performance, two (not unusual) forget it.  Originally, the 802s were to have had better seats too but that was blocked by the DfT who insisted (including threats to FG) that they had to be the same as the 800s so as not to show them up!  Incidentally, the leasing deal First have for the 802s is about a third of that the DfT negotiated for the 800s (and LNER 801s) and the DfT have finally woken up to the fact they were taken for a ride - Hitachi are no longer in favour!

 

The reason why there are so many short or incorrectly formed services on GWR is entirely down to Hitachi's inability to provide the full number of serviceable units daily and even if it does then they may not be the required mix of 5 and 9 car units.  GWR are as frustrated as anyone else at this but as far as the 800s are concerned then there's little they can do due to the way the contracts are written although I understand that the DfT has recently put aside a large sum of money to take possible legal action against Hitachi for breach of contract.

 

As for buffets this is a contentious issue.  The decision not to include them in the GWR 800s was again taken by the DfT in order to maximise the number of seats.  GWR (First) did consider for the 802s but the decision not to was explained to me thus and remember this was pre-Covid.  Many customers today are business travellers who like to work during the journey and will set up laptops and other expensive kit at their seat and are therefore reluctant to leave them unattended and go to queue at a buffet counter, preferring a trolley service instead.  Of course, on the WoE services leisure traffic is just as important as business but that was the decision and it's not likely to be reversed.

 

The whole story of the IETs has been one of naivety and incompetence and even a whiff of corruption involving civil servants and politicians who think they know better how to specify and design a train than seasoned rail professionals.  The taxpayer has paid a fortune and the passenger received a poor product as a result.  Please do not blame GWR or LNER for the shortcomings.  Remember, FirstGroup and GNER in conjunction with Siemens got the HST2 project (which was entirely a private sector project which would have cost the taxpayer nothing) almost to the point of cutting metal when the DfT ordered it be halted in favour of this Japanese wonder train.  One day, the whole sorry story will come out in someone's memoirs.

[Mike_Walker]

35 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

A closure by stealth then.  No formal proposal has ever been published for several miles of track which has had an advertised passenger service over it.  

 

Anyone out there want to take a "no win no fee" case?

As I mentioned in the other thread, there was no need to hold a formal closure procedure for Park Royal to OOC as the Chiltern service was simply diverted over an alternative route with a slightly increased journey time.  There were no intermediate stations no longer served.  More recently the train service was cut back to West Ealing to free paths and platform capacity at Paddington for Crossrail and more recently still it has been replaced by a bus as so few people used the train (it and the bus normally run empty) that it is more cost effective.

[Mallard60022]

ECML availability seems to be OK, or am I missing something?

P

[jamie92208]

15 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

ECML availability seems to be OK, or am I missing something?

P

Probably because they have quite a few straight electrics which are inherently more reliable. 

 

Jamie

[Mallard60022]

28 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Probably because they have quite a few straight electrics which are inherently more reliable. 

 

Jamie

Ah I see. Yes of course, they run on Electric all the way, except off the ECML for a couple of Workings. However I thought the main faults were with the Bogies Cracking? I think there is also a real good servicing regime at the Main Depots (especially Donny).

Thanks.

Phil

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

ECML availability seems to be OK, or am I missing something?

P

The ECML and the GWR W of E mainlines are a totally different situation. Apart from the South Wales line as far as Cardiff,most of their working is on diesel power ,some of which is decidedly not gradient friendly. The only real slog the LNER dual power units have on diesel is between Perth & Inverness. 

[corneliuslundie]

Re reversing trains, it gets real fun on the Cambrian.

Trains from Birmingham International reverse at Shrewsbury so the front unit becomes the rear unit and vice versa. Then quite a few trains split at Machynlleth with the front (ex rear) set going to Aberystwyth and the rear Iex front) set going up the coast. Really confusing for passengers not used to the service and boarding before Shrewsbury, especially as the platform indicators are not infrequently wrong at Birmingham NS.

Fortunately the on-board staff are normally really good at checking everyone's destination and making sure they are in the right half of the train by Machynlleth. Though some passengers have a job understanding what is happening and wnhy they need to move to the other set.

Jonathan