Hitachi trains grounded

[Steadfast]

10 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Indeed. But my point was that this was a down train swapping to diesel. Even if it had lost time being looped through the station it failed to regain that time and lost a little more. 

Forgive my dopiness there, I had the headcodes back to front earlier, thinking it was the Alpha you were referring to. 

Unless one has sprung up since last Wednesday, I can confirm there are no TSR/ ESRs on the Down in that area.

 

IETs are definitely not speedy on diesel. When road learning in them, one driver likened the performance on diesel to a 158 if you have a good IET. 

 

Jo

[big jim]

Regards the timings and the difference between diesel and electric last night I was testing an 805 on the wcml and we ran on diesel all night, it was a 5 car and it struggled to get above 110mph at any point 

 

usually when leaving Wolverhampton at bushbury jn I switch to electric and can be hitting 125 mph a few miles out but last night I could barely reach 110 mph at penkridge, 10 miles or so out, and that was an empty train 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/02/2024 at 09:58, Gwiwer said:

They are called triangles. Sets can be turned before entering traffic at Laira, Bristol, Swansea and Reading at least. It takes time, resources and therefore money but getting the job right was always important during my railway career. 

Yes - but.  The big 'but' is the difference between a turning capability being available and time and resources being available to allow it to be used.  That is little different now from the days of the WR HST fleet - the sets have limited overnight time on depot so if a set 'needs' to be turned it either has to go on depot late or come off depot early.   That very often won't be possible due to the way depot workload has to be arranged and that is probably little or no different now from the way it was with the HST fleet - there is rarely sufficient time available to do it.

 

There resourcing problem is also an added difficulty.  Booking on or off times can be difficult to alter as it will affect rest periods etc,  Spare drivers basically don't exist nowadays but even if there is one (or the two you would need at most of those locations in order to save time when reversing) and it relies on suitable line capacity and signalling also being available.  For example one leg of a turning on the triangle at Reading requires the train being turned to run over a mile from one of the junctions before it can revers;  in the old days you were lucky to be able to turn a tran on that triangle in less than 20 minutes hence it was only done in extremis.   The only simple way of turning a train was 'round Greenford' as it only involved a reversal on or off the depot, the rest was simply running without reversal but it still took well over 20 minutes.

 

One big advantage with the HST fleet was that to some extent sets could be worked via a journey reversal going in the opposite direction to the way they had become reversed in the first place.  that might be a bit more awkward now as it relies on the train provider putting a set out in a suitable diagram.  all dead easy to say but it can be hellish difficult when you are actually trying to find a way of doing it without either incurring a late start or reducing the time a set has available on depot.  In reality it boils down to a simple decision - do you run a train on time or do you turn it round and have a late start of 20 minutes or more (assuuming that you have a Driver(s) available to actually turn it?  

 

So overall little has changed from HST days because - don't forget - the WR HST fleet had variations in it to suit different routes.  But one thing has changed and that is the quality of passenger information on station platforms with both indicators showing train formations (accurately in my experience even at stations in Cornwall) and announcements where that facility is available.  Similarly in my experience on-train staff in Cornwall are very good at dealing with the consequences of trains being incorrectly formed and avising passengers of the vehicles they need to alight from.

 

Incidentally if a 2x5 car formation stops at Camborne on the Down Main there should be at least one passenger door, if not two, on the leading set platformed.

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/02/2024 at 20:10, Siberian Snooper said:

When I go to visit the girlfriend, who lives just outside Reading, or go to gigs in London, I catch the 09.15, they tend to run to time, until arrival at Exeter. From a usual 2 or 3 minutes late departure, it tends to lose time, between 5 and 10 minutes down by Taunton departure, I now expect to be at least 15 minutes down on arrival at Reading.

 

I usually catch the "14.29" back, I regard anything less than 10 minutes late as an ontime departure, if the 14.37 to Newbury leaves before us, we will lose time until it arrives in there and then continue to lose time all the way to Plymouth. I assume that the late departure from Pad, is that the crew have arrived late and need to have their required break, or the stock arrived late in Pad.

The 80*'s don't have the get up and go of the HST's, to recover time and with big brother watching, there's no opportunity for the driver to give it a bit of extra, here and there.

 

 

 

Part of the problem on the B&H (i.e the genuine B&H eastwards from Hungerford) is that if Up trains have dropped the 'right' - i.e. wrong amount of time they will lose their path and suffer further delays.

 

Generally on full diesel power they should not lose time but even then if they get some sort of check they simply do not have the power available to recover from it unlike an HST which could usually snatch back time with a clear run  after being hit for a few minutes.   Another problem I've noticed  - which contributes - is station overtime (not very much at either) at both Tiverton Parkway and Taunton (often added to time lost at St Davids).  That simply cannot be regained on the climb to Whiteball so becomes cumulative if another couple of minutes is lost at Taunton.

 

With an engine out things do indeed become dire - hence my experience last year on Down train, of being looped at Tiverton Jcn on a very poorly IET which was losing time hand over fist.  And even from Day 1 their power problem was noticeable - exactly one minute lost passing through theSevern Tunnel with a clear run due to lack of poke on diesel - put simply they are under-powered, end of.

[Siberian Snooper]

The result of Whitehall desk jockeys with no engineering experience or knowledge only specifying just enough, but no provision for eventualities.

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Reading these posts,I’m glad ( yes,even that ) that my intercity experiences are these days still with the much reviled Voyagers …..recently between Bristol TM in the west and Newcastle in the north.Yes they’re cramped & uncomfortable & what luggage I choose to bring with me is stowed by the courtesy & good nature of any kind soul sitting next to me. They have been in service now for 20 + years . They can and do make up time….though there is much “ recovery “ allowed in XC schedules it has to be said. They employ a good and long suffering resource of train crew.

[MJI]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - but.  The big 'but' is the difference between a turning capability being available and time and resources being available to allow it to be used.  That is little different now from the days of the WR HST fleet - the sets have limited overnight time on depot so if a set 'needs' to be turned it either has to go on depot late or come off depot early.   That very often won't be possible due to the way depot workload has to be arranged and that is probably little or no different now from the way it was with the HST fleet - there is rarely sufficient time available to do it.

 

There resourcing problem is also an added difficulty.  Booking on or off times can be difficult to alter as it will affect rest periods etc,  Spare drivers basically don't exist nowadays but even if there is one (or the two you would need at most of those locations in order to save time when reversing) and it relies on suitable line capacity and signalling also being available.  For example one leg of a turning on the triangle at Reading requires the train being turned to run over a mile from one of the junctions before it can revers;  in the old days you were lucky to be able to turn a tran on that triangle in less than 20 minutes hence it was only done in extremis.   The only simple way of turning a train was 'round Greenford' as it only involved a reversal on or off the depot, the rest was simply running without reversal but it still took well over 20 minutes.

 

One big advantage with the HST fleet was that to some extent sets could be worked via a journey reversal going in the opposite direction to the way they had become reversed in the first place.  that might be a bit more awkward now as it relies on the train provider putting a set out in a suitable diagram.  all dead easy to say but it can be hellish difficult when you are actually trying to find a way of doing it without either incurring a late start or reducing the time a set has available on depot.  In reality it boils down to a simple decision - do you run a train on time or do you turn it round and have a late start of 20 minutes or more (assuuming that you have a Driver(s) available to actually turn it?  

 

So overall little has changed from HST days because - don't forget - the WR HST fleet had variations in it to suit different routes.  But one thing has changed and that is the quality of passenger information on station platforms with both indicators showing train formations (accurately in my experience even at stations in Cornwall) and announcements where that facility is available.  Similarly in my experience on-train staff in Cornwall are very good at dealing with the consequences of trains being incorrectly formed and avising passengers of the vehicles they need to alight from.

 

Incidentally if a 2x5 car formation stops at Camborne on the Down Main there should be at least one passenger door, if not two, on the leading set platformed.

At least Wednesday is not a problem.

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Reading these posts,I’m glad ( yes,even that ) that my intercity experiences are these days still with the much reviled Voyagers …..recently between Bristol TM in the west and Newcastle in the north.Yes they’re cramped & uncomfortable & what luggage I choose to bring with me is stowed by the courtesy & good nature of any kind soul sitting next to me. They have been in service now for 20 + years . They can and do make up time….though there is much “ recovery “ allowed in XC schedules it has to be said. They employ a good and long suffering resource of train crew.

Never found the Voyagers to be too terrible (by modern train standards) if they weren't crowded, the problem with them is that they're frequently far too crowded. I do remember thinking of them as commuter trains with ideas above their station when they first appeared.

[Gwiwer]

Dr SWMBO has travelled weekly since last Autumn between Penzance and Paddington on these wretched things. 
 

Of her 36 individual trips to date no fewer than 31 have triggered a Delay Repay claim. 
 

Not all of those delays were attributable to the rolling stock but in some cases an adequately-powered train could potentially have regained enough time to have avoided the payout.
 

Some, such as creeping over the Devon banks before being terminated at Plymouth  “because we have a faulty engine” clearly have been motive-power related.  
 

 

[Oldddudders]

I feel that the 10-cars run more easily than 9. Why an extra car should make any real difference I have no idea. The 06.55 Ply - Padd on which I am riding is a classic case of feeling sprightly as we approach Tiverton Parkway, just as the 13.03 Padd - Ply did Tuesday last week. I have little experience of 5-cars but suspect they have a similar advantage. 

[jjb1970]

39 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Never found the Voyagers to be too terrible (by modern train standards) if they weren't crowded, the problem with them is that they're frequently far too crowded. I do remember thinking of them as commuter trains with ideas above their station when they first appeared.

 

I think it's true of several designs which receive a lot of criticism, problems are more because of short trains with inadequate capacity for the service or inappropriate use rather than the actual trains being bad.

[DK123GWR]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I feel that the 10-cars run more easily than 9. Why an extra car should make any real difference I have no idea. The 06.55 Ply - Padd on which I am riding is a classic case of feeling sprightly as we approach Tiverton Parkway, just as the 13.03 Padd - Ply did Tuesday last week. I have little experience of 5-cars but suspect they have a similar advantage. 

5 car units have three engines (so 0.6 engines per car, 6 on a 10 car unit).

9 car units have 5 engines, which works out at 0.555... engines per car.

[62613]

59 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I think it's true of several designs which receive a lot of criticism, problems are more because of short trains with inadequate capacity for the service or inappropriate use rather than the actual trains being bad.

Or adequate for the service levels when designed, but overtaken by the increase in numbers travelling by train? It would be interesting to know how passenger levels now (even after the Covid "drop - off") compare with then?

[Gwiwer]

31 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Or adequate for the service levels when designed, but overtaken by the increase in numbers travelling by train? It would be interesting to know how passenger levels now (even after the Covid "drop - off") compare with then?

Passenger levels have returned but the overall pattern differs to pre-Covid. 
 

For example the East Coast Main Line, which is almost exclusively an IET-operated railway and has three open-access operators competing for traffic with LNER, is said to be at or above pre-Covid levels with many trains running full. 
 

GWR is not at that level yet with something like 80% overall pre-Covid traffic but less than that during weekday peaks and more off-peak. Of note the 12.03 Paddington - Penzance is now regularly overloaded whereas the 10.04 (the “traditional” Cornish Riviera slot) is lightly loaded; the 17.03 is only moderately loaded beyond Reading where it was once standing room only to Exeter. 
 

Of other operators SWR claims barely 70% of pre-Covid traffic overall, Waterloo entries / exits (the standard measure of passenger numbers) support this, and whilst most suburban peak-time trains are packed these are now mostly 8-car instead of 10-car and none of the one-time peak extras runs; the “off-peak” timetable applies all day. 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, DK123GWR said:

5 car units have three engines (so 0.6 engines per car, 6 on a 10 car unit).

9 car units have 5 engines, which works out at 0.555... engines per car.

This matches my experience of Dr SWMBO’s trips

 

Her Monday Up service is a booked 9-car. It typically arrives in Paddington 15-30 minutes late.
 

Her Thursday Down train is booked 10-car to Plymouth and 5-car beyond. It is usually a 9-car set and has typically arrived 20 - 30 minutes late. On the rare occasions it is a 5-car (into Penzance) it is closer to right time. On one occasion it even regained a few minutes on paper from 7 late at Saltash to right-time arrival at Penzance. 
 

Examination of the running times suggest that while the set kept to its booked time the minutes were regained from pathing and engineering allowances and a couple of shorter-than-booked station stops. Not time was regained by the set itself. 

[Reorte]

46 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Or adequate for the service levels when designed, but overtaken by the increase in numbers travelling by train? It would be interesting to know how passenger levels now (even after the Covid "drop - off") compare with then?

IIRC they weren't particularly adequate (at least the ones I travelled on weren't) for the numbers when first introduced. This was on the Manchester - Scotland route. At least they were better than the 185s that followed (1/3 2/3 doors and three carriages after Preston wasn't ever a good quality regional service from the off). At least they actually seemed capable of running up the hills even when jammed full of people though.

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, 62613 said:

Or adequate for the service levels when designed, but overtaken by the increase in numbers travelling by train? It would be interesting to know how passenger levels now (even after the Covid "drop - off") compare with then?

But were they adequate for the expected increase in passenger numbers which they would bring ?  (They were designed for that, not the passenger numbers already being carried).   Their big problem is that while increased frequency was intended to handle the total numbers on the core section of route between Reading and Birmingham that doesn't meet the peak demand - either pre-Covid or now.

 

Some benefit resulted from the 'Covid timetable' which used sets in pairs over that core section but that doesn't always work due to lack of onboard staff to cover two sets on one train and many have in any case now reverted to single set operation (and back to massive overcrowding on that section of route on many trains).

 

From personal observation I think part of XC's problem is the generally very heavy loading on that section with much lighter loading north of New St and lighter - but still good load factor - loading south of Reading.  The ideal answer would be to add an additional set to certain of the heaviest loading trains in either direction between Reading and Wolverhampton. (the latter to avoid the congestion at New St)  but that would come with a cost in both train and staff resources and achieving ideal balances for the extra set wouldn't be as simple as it might sound.   I wonder about the future because I doubt that a 5 car IET would be able to match Voyager sectional running times.

[31A]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Their big problem is that while increased frequency was intended to handle the total numbers on the core section of route between Reading and Birmingham that doesn't meet the peak demand - either pre-Covid or now.

 

I don't have much experience of the Reading-Birmingham section but would add to that the Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds part of the XC route.  The scrums and bun fights over that section (seemingly almost any time of day) puts me off travelling from York to Birmingham, especially as there aren't so many of the "faster" ones via Doncaster any more (roughly two hourly, formerly hourly).  In contrast if I happen to go north from York on one they are usually much more comfortable.  Although I rarely do as I (back on topic!) much prefer an LNER Azuma if doing that kind of journey.

[corneliuslundie]

My trips from Birmingham to Derby or Chesterfield on Saturdays before Covid were often on Voyagers and in the morning they always seemed to be full of football supporters, usually rather loud ones. 

And there was always the worry that the seat you managed to find which was free when you got on would be reserved from Burton.

Jonathan

[RJS1977]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But were they adequate for the expected increase in passenger numbers which they would bring ?  (They were designed for that, not the passenger numbers already being carried).   Their big problem is that while increased frequency was intended to handle the total numbers on the core section of route between Reading and Birmingham that doesn't meet the peak demand - either pre-Covid or now.

 

Some benefit resulted from the 'Covid timetable' which used sets in pairs over that core section but that doesn't always work due to lack of onboard staff to cover two sets on one train and many have in any case now reverted to single set operation (and back to massive overcrowding on that section of route on many trains).

 

From personal observation I think part of XC's problem is the generally very heavy loading on that section with much lighter loading north of New St and lighter - but still good load factor - loading south of Reading.  The ideal answer would be to add an additional set to certain of the heaviest loading trains in either direction between Reading and Wolverhampton. (the latter to avoid the congestion at New St)  but that would come with a cost in both train and staff resources and achieving ideal balances for the extra set wouldn't be as simple as it might sound.   I wonder about the future because I doubt that a 5 car IET would be able to match Voyager sectional running times.

 

Unfortunately the frequency on the Reading-Birmingham route hasn't yet got back to pre-Covid levels in that most of the Reading-Newcastle services (the ones that went direct between Leamington Spa and Birmingham) aren't running.

 

I think the original decision to run half-hourly shorter trains between Reading and Birmingham came about because of the then requirement to turn cross-country services in platforms 3 and (the old) 7 at Reading to free up capacity on the through lines. This increase in frequency resulted in an unexpected 40% increase in passenger numbers!

The downside of the half-hourly frequency with shorter trains was that only half of the trains called at Birmingham International (owing to lack of capacity between Leamington and Coventry) meaning that they could get very crowded if there were big events on at the NEC.

[RJS1977]

Back on the subject of IETs, I don't think the timing issues are just a simple matter of the units being underpowered when on diesel.

 

Looking at today's entries on Realtime Trains for Up trains calling at Reading (deliberately chosen over Paddington to avoid any recovery time that may be in the schedule between Reading and Paddington), it appears that most trains (whether from the SW, Bristol, South Wales or Hereford/Worcester/Gloucester/Cheltenham were either on time or only a couple of minutes late. There's certainly no consistency of lateness to suggest that being underpowered is an issue. Neither did there seem to be any indication of a lack of power going over Dainton or Rattery.

 

In fact of those trains from the SW that were significantly late, the most consistent stretch for losing time was on the downhill, electrified stretch between Newbury and Theale! 

[Gwiwer]

12 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

the most consistent stretch for losing time was on the downhill, electrified stretch between Newbury and Theale!

Where the operation of nominally 125mph trains is severely constrained by the need to path them between 110mph class 387s, 60-75mph heavy freights and the conflicting moves across Southcote Junction and the Reading triangle. 
 

Signallers are reluctant to put a freight “inside” in case it takes so long to re-start that it delays something up it’s behind. 
 

Cue regular traffic jams. And for every delay approaching Reading there is a lost path up to Paddington often leading to more delays

[Ian Hargrave]

14 hours ago, 31A said:

 

I don't have much experience of the Reading-Birmingham section but would add to that the Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds part of the XC route.  The scrums and bun fights over that section (seemingly almost any time of day) puts me off travelling from York to Birmingham, especially as there aren't so many of the "faster" ones via Doncaster any more (roughly two hourly, formerly hourly).  In contrast if I happen to go north from York on one they are usually much more comfortable.  Although I rarely do as I (back on topic!) much prefer an LNER Azuma if doing that kind of journey.

Which is not helped by the provision of single 4 car 220 units on Birmingham- NE & Scottish services via Leeds.A return Burton ( yes I’m the one who reserves that seat ! ) to Newcastle journey over last weekend produced such in each direction. The more direct services via Doncaster don’t usually stop at Burton. On Monday,the 10:35 Reading service from Newcastle stopped as follows: Durham,Darlington,York,Doncaster,Sheffield,Derby,Birmingham ( 4 car)

The following 10 : 40 ex Glasgow-Plymouth ( 4 car )  served same to York,then Leeds,Wakefield ,Sheffield,Chesterfield

Derby,Burton & New Street. And I wholeheartedly agree re: the nuisance of football fans on these XC services. Some time ago,we experienced one service which its driver flatly refused to take onwards from Derby due to such from a group of Wolves fans.We transferred to an alternative Nottingham- Birmingham service,leaving the Voyager at platform with two BT police officers on board attempting to sort it out. It was Plymouth bound.

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/03/2024 at 11:37, Gwiwer said:

Where the operation of nominally 125mph trains is severely constrained by the need to path them between 110mph class 387s, 60-75mph heavy freights and the conflicting moves across Southcote Junction and the Reading triangle. 
 

Signallers are reluctant to put a freight “inside” in case it takes so long to re-start that it delays something up it’s behind. 
 

Cue regular traffic jams. And for every delay approaching Reading there is a lost path up to Paddington often leading to more delays

The paths work without problems so that isn't the trouble.  The problem - when it occurs - is if the IET loses its path and presents late at Bedwyn and/or Newbury it can then be hit by the presence of other trains.   Provided they start on time the freights generally maintain their running time without problems - unless they are delayed catching up a late running train.

 

Regulating freights up the Stert & Westbury/B&H Extension/B&H is fairly straightforward - providing that a non-stop passenger train hasn't left Taunton a heavier stone train will have a margin from Westbury to Woodborough and even a lighter one wouldn't be able to make Hungerford without hitting the fast passenger train.  That is very simple regulating.  Newbury is generally of little use for looping Up freights because of the passenger service so the margin really has to be Hungerford to Theale and that depends on Theale loop being available.  There isn't then  any really usable freight loop in the Up direction during the passenger train running period until Farnham Road (which isn't very long) or Iver.  The diveunder at Reading can be used to loop shorter freights or possibly one of the platform lines at Reading depending on what else is around.  Pre Reading reconstruction the stone ytrains had to be timed around the passenger service and that hasn't really changed, apart from the complications added by the Liz Line - but if passenger trains are late in the wrong place they might be hit by a freight running in its correct path..

 

But none of that matters because if the passenger trains are running on time no problem arises.

[Gwiwer]

An interesting piece of working on Thursday. 
 

The usual 17.03 off Paddington (booked 2x5-car IETs) was, as it usually is, a 9-car IET.  

Apart from the now-customary confusion about seat reservations there were two added problems. 
 

1.  The set in use was unable to provide any heating and

2. Trains are terminating at Liskeard due to Cornish signalling works and a 9-car unit is too long to fit between the starting signal (the limit of operation) and the crossover clearing point in the rear to allow it to shunt back towards Plymouth. 
 

Passengers aboard the 17.03, which was keeping good time for once, were advised at Totnes that their train would be terminating at Plymouth “due to a fault”. No mention of any onward arrangements. 
 

The preceding train, 16.35 Paddington - Plymouth 1C89 was formed of 2x5-car units. Upon its arrival at Plymouth these were split and the front one assigned the headcode of the 17.03 1C90.  The 9-car 1C90 was platformed alongside and Cornish passengers were transferred to the waiting 5-car unit. Which was nicely warm inside  

 

As the 17.03 is booked a 9-minute stop at Plymouth to split the units 1C90 left right on time despite being a set-swap and having to detrain and re-train around 200 passengers. 
 

Some good work all round there topped off by Dr SWMBO being helped from one train to the other (she always has assistance booked but this was an unscheduled change of trains) and then being seated in the first class carriage down to Liskeard. 
 

From where I collected her and drove her home because another three hours on two replacement buses - one to St Austell then another to Penzance - was going to be beyond her.