Hitachi trains grounded

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

The ECML and the GWR W of E mainlines are a totally different situation. Apart from the South Wales line as far as Cardiff,most of their working is on diesel power ,some of which is decidedly not gradient friendly. The only real slog the LNER dual power units have on diesel is between Perth & Inverness. 

Yup, but I still will say wasn't the main ' Grounded' issue initially to do with Bogie Fractures, not performance which, of course, may well have been and now appears to be causing unavailability due to Engines being knackered.

Phil

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, it was, well fractures anyway but I think in the mountings rather than the bogies.

J

[Gwiwer]

The topic began with the mass grounding arising from fractures being found in critical parts of the suspension and elsewhere.  

 

In the natural course of events we have moved on and so has the IET fleet. Eastleigh (I believe) and others are churning out "rectified" sets as fast as they can and it has become apparent that the violent lurching and bumping once common when these things were new has almost vanished.  Some of those lurches were quite alarming; a loud thud as you were thrown sideways at around 123mph* caused more than one passenger to activate the alarm bringing the train to an abrupt halt.  And of course causing delays to all others behind it.  

 

The majority of IET cars are 26 metres long; some of the most recent are / will be shorter.  That excess length, greater than anything we have had before, causes issues on curves and at platforms as the kinematic window (envelope in some literature) has had to be adjusted to accept such long vehicles.  

 

Another "thing" is that despite a general post-Covid recovery it has become apparent that the WoE trains (at least) and (I believe) the Bristol service is haemmoraging passengers.  Trains which were once always filled and with standees now offer empty seats.  Dr. SWMBO is a regular user of the 17.03 Paddington - Penzance which at one time could have been relied upon to be full at least to Exeter and well-loaded to Plymouth.  She tells me that she is now often one of just a few in her carriage all the way down.  Long-term industrial action has had its impact on loadings as has repeated service interruptions due to bad weather.  Covid affected the railways as we all know but in some areas recovery - especially for leisure travel - has bounced back to 100% of previous patronage and is widely at 80%.  

 

Seating quality, service reliability (persistent lateness and, especially on Up runs, terminating short of destination at Reading)  and to an extent the absence of meaningful catering will all also have made dents in customer confidence.  Even I now drive in preference to taking the train when the need arises to be at the other end of the line.  Because I cannot sit comfortably on one of those things for 5 - 6 hours and I cannot rely on them getting me where I need to be "on time" (not even "within ten minutes of advertised time" which somehow counts as "on time") and because in the car I can stop at any suitable point for rest and refreshment rather than hoping a trolley comes through at some point offering the barest  minimum of cold drinks and crisps / chocolates.  There is seldom anything more even when the advertised trolley does appear.  Which has been on fewer than half of all trains used across the past year.  

 

* Not 125mph because the cruise control on these sets seems to be set slightly below the maximum permitted speed.  Another reason why they lose a time.  None ever seems to cruise at 125mph as the HSTs usually did.  

Edited February 7 by Gwiwer

[31A]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

The only real slog the LNER dual power units have on diesel is between Perth & Inverness. 

 

Stirling and Inverness in fact, to be picky, but Edinburgh-Aberdeen isn't a walk in the park either and they do that several times a day.

 

LNER Azuma services mostly seem to run pretty reliably in my experience, when not interrupted by external events.

Edited February 7 by 31A
spelling mistake

[Mallard60022]

Blimey that sounds awful. I also hadn't twigged that the thread had morphed into a discussion about crap operations, service and performance. I thought that started very recently after a long break; 13.48 yesterday in fact?

Thus I'm not going to mention the superiority of operations of what was various Franchises and now OOLR  and the excellence of Hull Trains (using 802 Units I think it is with better seating and excellent Staff?) on the ECML south of Edinburgh at least and from Hull of course. The Staff along my section of the ECML, have remained the same for Years and Train Staff from what I can see. They have adapted well, despite 'The Management'.

Sounds like GWR are poor as a TOC? I know from contacts, still living where I was born and grew up, that their attitude was that they couldn't give a toss about west of the Tamar during various 'incidents and events'. However I had no idea things were so gross over the other areas as you describe. 

Is it just this Stock or does the other stuff they operate bring a better attitude and service?

All sounds very sad and how the mighty GWR has fallen into ruin?

can't even escape using SWT either from what I read elsewhere.

 

Edit; having reread the last few posts, I see that GWR were 'shafted' by the DFT and the associated Ministers. It seems like they are trying to perform but the equipment isn't up to it on the WOE Routes;  sad state of affairs but no surprise sadly.

A. Janner.

[Siberian Snooper]

The edit definitely has my support.

 

 

[ColinK]

The service in the North West is just as bad with regular cancellations by all three operators, Avanti, Northern and TPE.  Cancellations and turning trains short are common place.  One thing that is really annoying is that because Avanti crews change at Preston, if there is a problem at somewhere like Penrith, Avanti don’t run anything north of Preston.

 

There are operator led barriers to travel which deter passengers too, take for example Carnforth, the only way you can pay for the station car park is by smartphone - no smartphone, no parking, no train journey.  The self service ticket machine is difficult to use, especially on damp days when the touch screen is erratic and often tells me that no tickets (snormal off-peak return) exist for the journey I am going to make. But if you don’t gave a ticket its a £100 fine.

 

The Morecambe line has so many cancellations it’s no longer a viable means of transport.  The daily train to Heysham harbour, which connects with the ferries to and from the Isle of Man rarely runs, although it did run on the days the ferries were cancelled due to adverse weather. People get stranded at places like Windermere due to the last train being cancelled.  Add to that strikes, overtime bans etc and the railway is no longer a viable means of transport. Sad but true.

 

Many of my journeys are now made by car or bus instead of train, or in some cases I just don’t go. Which means that I no longer go to model railway exhibitions further from home eg at the NEC.

 

 

Edited February 7 by ColinK
Spelling

[rodent279]

Sitting on another short formed 800, this time a Swansea that is 5 instead of 9.

 

One thing that bugs me about these things is the abysmal state of water provision in the toilets. Invariably the toilets work but you can't wash your hands because there is no water. It's a very common occurrence.

 

Yes, though I've not followed the whole sorry saga from start to finish, I understand that the IEP procurement program was botched by the DfT from the start. The TOCS, the railways as a whole, the travelling public and most of all the taxpayer have been right royally shafted by the DfT. I described HS2 as a shambolic farcical cluster £#_& of a joke in that thread; IEP isn't far behind in the shambles stakes.

 

Edit: and the clever bit about it is who do people lay the blame on? Not the DfT or government ministers, that's for sure.

Edited February 7 by rodent279

[GMKAT7]

Good evening folks,

 

To answer the question about 387s being used on Cardiff trains, I travelled on one this afternoon from Cardiff to Bristol Parkway, the 1454 from CDF. It was forming a Paddington train.

 

I bailed at Parkway for the 1544 Edinburgh Voyager back to Derby.

 

Travelling to CDF from Parkway at 1240 was on a 8xx set, apologies no number recorded. It was a 5 car unit, but at that time of day there was no capacity issue.

 

All journeys today were on time 🙂

 

Cheers, Nigel.

[Gwiwer]

6 hours ago, 31A said:

LNER Azuma services mostly seem to run pretty reliably in my experience, when not interrupted by external events.

I agree.  

 

South from Edinburgh (and indeed for the sole trips they make to Stirling and Glasgow) this is an all-electric railway.  These trains are designed to be straight electrics.  They work well and run well under such circumstances.  

 

The small number of trips to Aberdeen and the sole Inverness duty, all of which were under threat at one time because no change of power was envisaged meaning the electric "Azumas" would not have been able to offer through services, cope with conditions although I am told that the Inverness run can find it more of a challenge than the HST did.  

 

Direct Aberdeen / Inverness - London trains were effectively bailed out by the Holyrood Parliament who pressed for direct services and were rightly advised that "some" of the new trains would have "last mile" diesel power packs to enable off-juice operation.  The "last-mile" concept was for self-rescue and slow-speed diversions when required but they have been uprated, as I understand it, to "full spec" bi-modes.  

 

The open-access operations, free to specify their own fit-out, have more comfortable and arguably more popular trains within the same style of body shell.  I wonder why.  

[Steadfast]

To take one set in isolation, last night I travelled back from London on a 9 car, 18.36 ex Paddington for Exeter. Not standing, but very full in my coach. Think it's possibly the last west of England before off peaks can be used, which may affect how popular a service it is.

 

Anyway, fine on electric, after Newbury losing a fair chunk of time,  not helped by the fact it stops everywhere after Newbury. Announcement by the guard, only got 2 (out of 5) engines working, so it would terminate Westbury, with the following fast stopping additonally at Westbury to mop up the people needing to carry on west. Thankfully, Westbury was my stop. People for Castle Cary were miffed as rather than add an extra additional call on the IET that was picking them up at Westbury, they were told to travel to Taunton and come back to Cary in a taxi. No doubt a discussion for another thread! 

 

Back to the capacity comments, the mid morning starters from Bristol are regularly full by Bath, and full and standing from Chippenham or Swindon, and that's with the booked 9 car set. If a 5 turns up...good luck! 

 

Jo

Edited February 7 by Steadfast

[rodent279]

28 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Back to the capacity comments, the mid morning starters from Bristol are regularly full by Bath, and full and standing from Chippenham or Swindon, and that's with the booked 9 car set. If a 5 turns up...good luck! 

I was on one such short formed this morning, Taunton-Padd via Temple Meads. I got on (just) at TM, it was wedged, almost crush loading all the way to Paddington.

[Steadfast]

5 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I was on one such short formed this morning, Taunton-Padd via Temple Meads. I got on (just) at TM, it was wedged, almost crush loading all the way to Paddington.

You have my sympathies! Having seen how bad the Bristol starters are at Bath, I can well imagine what something from further south west was like.

 

1A77 is another one that loads rather well. It was cozy as a 9 car previously, but now seems to be booked 5. A Plymouth starter, every time I've used it the last few months it's been standing from Westbury. 

 

It feels a little ungrateful complaining about something I'm on many occasions not paying for (travelling on a duty pass for work) and it feels bad enough travelling on some of these services, but I can't imagine how it feels having spent potentially hundreds on a ticket to travel sat on your suitcase in the vestibule or getting cozy with a stranger stood 6 inches away, but some of these crush loadings are an accident waiting to happen.

 

There is definitely a contrast between busy and quiet services, and obviously a train does more than one trip across its diagram so a 9 car that works a peak crush loading could come back with mostly fresh air, however when they are busy, these things are ridiculously busy. 

 

The more I travel on IETs, the more I dislike them. Hard ride, hard seats, harsh overly bright interior lighting and luggage racks you hit your head on for starters. It's been interesting to hear the views of drivers when I've been up the front road learning, and it sounds like a set with no faults is a noteworthy event!

 

Jo

[Stoke West]

1 hour ago, Steadfast said:

To take one set in isolation, last night I travelled back from London on a 9 car, 18.36 ex Paddington for Exeter. Not standing, but very full in my coach. Think it's possibly the last west of England before off peaks can be used, which may affect how popular a service it is.

 

Anyway, fine on electric, after Newbury losing a fair chunk of time,  not helped by the fact it stops everywhere after Newbury. Announcement by the guard, only got 2 (out of 5) engines working, so it would terminate Westbury, with the following fast stopping additonally at Westbury to mop up the people needing to carry on west. Thankfully, Westbury was my stop. People for Castle Cary were miffed as rather than add an extra additional call on the IET that was picking them up at Westbury, they were told to travel to Taunton and come back to Cary in a taxi. No doubt a discussion for another thread! 

 

Back to the capacity comments, the mid morning starters from Bristol are regularly full by Bath, and full and standing from Chippenham or Swindon, and that's with the booked 9 car set. If a 5 turns up...good luck! 

 

Jo

Cant imagine " on the cushions " and IEP go together , better off finding something to sit on in the van . Of course lots on here won't understand what i've just said

[rodent279]

6 hours ago, Steadfast said:

It feels a little ungrateful complaining about something I'm on many occasions not paying for (travelling on a duty pass for work) and it feels bad enough travelling on some of these services

But should that really matter? I didn't pay for my ticket, my employer paid, but that does not take away the discomfort and inconvenience of standing for 90 min. Why should you have to put up with that regardless of what you have paid?

 

(I could have bagged a seat in the 1st class car I was stood in, but decided to let one of the older folk standing have it- in the end, someone younger than me grabbed it!)

Edited February 8 by rodent279

[Mallard60022]

9 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

I agree.  

 

South from Edinburgh (and indeed for the sole trips they make to Stirling and Glasgow) this is an all-electric railway.  These trains are designed to be straight electrics.  They work well and run well under such circumstances.  

 

The small number of trips to Aberdeen and the sole Inverness duty, all of which were under threat at one time because no change of power was envisaged meaning the electric "Azumas" would not have been able to offer through services, cope with conditions although I am told that the Inverness run can find it more of a challenge than the HST did.  

 

Direct Aberdeen / Inverness - London trains were effectively bailed out by the Holyrood Parliament who pressed for direct services and were rightly advised that "some" of the new trains would have "last mile" diesel power packs to enable off-juice operation.  The "last-mile" concept was for self-rescue and slow-speed diversions when required but they have been uprated, as I understand it, to "full spec" bi-modes.  

 

The open-access operations, free to specify their own fit-out, have more comfortable and arguably more popular trains within the same style of body shell.  I wonder why.  

That description of yours is exactly what we expected on the ECML b4 they arrived. I used the first service to and from Retford to Leeds. I used 2nd going..seats like rock and rock and roll over the Bogies on the Donny Wakefield sections. Ist back to Donny only and discovered the hardly any window seats! Slightly more comfy seats. However not a rotten experience and met a lot of impressed people and some lovely Staff as it was day 1.

It was some time before I actually found out that the Bi Mode function was not really a feature when these Units failed on the ECML or the wires were down etc. 

Then in early 2022 I met the Hitachi big wig on Retford Station, who was going to that London to meet that DFT to explain the Bogies issue (cracking). Lovely bloke (sort of typical Northern Yorkshire bloke). I fear it was him that gave me a dose of Covid! 

Anyway, the pre service hype didn't quite match up to the actual things delivered as far as I can see.

However, as you say, yes the all Electrics are fast, clean, almost always stuffed except in mid daytime services and the Hull Trains Units are my favourite method of doing the London Shuttle.

My York journeys have sometime been 225s; soooooo much more comfortable and the refurbished Sets are Class.

My observations of the 'ordinary passenger' is that they want frequent, on time, smart, clean and hassle free travel. Not fussed about windows and as I rarely use 1st Class I don't see annoyance about there being little in the way of refreshments...but yes, almost every ECML service has a Buffet and or a Trolly. 

I am sorry to hear about all your woes. It must be bad for anyone using Trains every day. I am obviously lucky as is my Wife, who travels to Croydon from here every few months, as almost all journeys have been totally stress free. A couple have been strange due to various issues but the alternatives have been quickly and professionally provided with no Bustitutions for me thank God, but herself has had to endure one of those from Grantham I think it was due to Wires down north of there.

Phil

[phil-b259]

22 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

No.  the connection at Old Oak Common was severed to construct HS2.  It is alleged that it will be restored when the works are complete but with no booked trains at all and only used for occasional turns and emergency diversions its usefulness was being questioned a long time ago.  

 

Chiltern's "Parliamentary" Paddington - Ruislip train now runs from West Ealing instead.  While this is technically a diversion whether it ever returns to Paddington remains to be seen if the link is restored.   They have always been keen to maintain driver route knowledge into Paddington in case Marylebone were to become unavailable.  However the advent of Heathrow Express and now the Elizabeth Line means track configuration and access may no longer permit such a thing.  

 

In which case a formal closure notice should be served for Old Oak - Northolt. 

(1) Triangles still exist at one (West Ealing) if not both ends of the Greenford branch so there is still the ability to turn GWR sets from North Pole depot / Paddington even if it’s not as convient as before.

 

(2) GWRs depot has swapped to the other side of the tracks from Old Oak Common and even if the connection to the NNML towards Greenford was still there or is reinstated after the HS2 works there is no easy way of accessing it.

 

(3) The one day a week Chiltern to / from West Ealing was withdrawn over a year ago and the duty is now covered by a hired in bus

 

(4) Offical closure only comes when a journey is no longer possible between two stations - there is nothing in the legislation which says it has to be a direct train. That was why there was no issue diverting the Chiltern train to West Ealing because that service connected with another National rail service which took you to / from the original starting point of Paddington. When the Chiltern train was withdrawn there was no way of completing the journey by National Rail services (the existence of other connecting services like the Underground’s central line doesn’t count in legislative terms) so a bus was put on instead to maintain the National Rail service.

[phil-b259]

17 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

* Not 125mph because the cruise control on these sets seems to be set slightly below the maximum permitted speed.  Another reason why they lose a time.  None ever seems to cruise at 125mph as the HSTs usually did.  

That is probably deliberate - and done for much the same reason as your car spedo always under reads….

 

You see in law the road speed limits are absolute - going at 30.0000…..00001mph in a 30mins zone is, legally speaking a criminal offence. However it is impossible to make a speed measuring device be perfectly actuate and thus there will always be +/- tolerance on the readout. Consequently manufacturers make sure the speed measuring device always indicate slightly higher than the actual speed so an indicated speed of 28mph a tolerance of 5% means your actual speed is 29.4mph and as such you can never break the 30mph legal barrier without knowing it.

 

Now given the ORR go round with speed hubs and do measure train speeds, plus also review OTMDR logs and train drivers do actually have licence complete with a penalty points regime, it stands to reason that if you are a train operator you will set your cruising speed / speed measuring devices in such a way that a driver can never think they are doing 125mph but are actually doing 128mph.

[Mike_Walker]

14 hours ago, rodent279 said:

One thing that bugs me about these things is the abysmal state of water provision in the toilets. Invariably the toilets work but you can't wash your hands because there is no water. It's a very common occurrence.

Again, it's down to Hitachi's failure to present the units for service in a fit state.  They routinely send out sets with more than one defective toilet (although the universal one has to be operational) and inadequate water supplies.  The contract between Hitachi and the DfT prevents GWR from topping them up during the day - only Hitachi are allowed to at the depot!

 

Interesting point about the cab.  It is generally considered to be just about the best in the business in terms of layout and ergonomic design.  Certainly from my own experience, admittedly only on the simulator, everything you need whilst driving falls straight to hand - once you remember where the various controls are and what they do.  The driving seat is simply superb but then it ought to be.  I'm assured that they cost £30k each - yes, you have read that right - and the joke is that so much was spent on the driver's seats there was nothing left for the punter's seats which is why they are so poor. 

 

Incidentally I think you will find the speed limiter kicks in at 124mph; it's something to do with the programming of the management computer as I understand it.  They will go a lot faster.  A couple of years back a TPE driver, who thought he'd engaged the speed limiter, glanced down at the speedo and found himself doing 150mph!  He quickly slowed down and reported himself to the signaller (in accordance with the rules).  There was a notice to all drivers of 80x units at all companies as a result reminding them of the correct procedure for engaging the speed limiter and ensuring it is working correctly.

 

As @Steadfast says, it's rare to get a fault free run with one although these days most faults are pre-existing as the units come off depot and into service - isolated engines for example.  The instances of faults occurring in service are much reduced now compared to the early days.

 

@Mallard60022 mentions the better seats on Hull Trains' 802s.  These are more like what was proposed for the GWR 802s but vetoed by the DfT.  Hull Trains being an OA operator means they have the freedom to furnish their trains in whatever manner they choose so long as they meet fire regulations, etc.

 

Finally @Gwiwer's point about vehicle length isn't really relevant.  Yes, at 26m they are longer than anything that has gone before but, and I admit this is surprising, it was taken into account when the units were being designed and only a few minor revisions t the infrastructure were required to accommodate them*.  All the 80x family are 26m the only exceptions, to date, are the forthcoming EMR 81x units which are only 23m due to constraints on the Midland Main Line which would be too costly and expensive to overcome to accept 26m vehicles.

 

 * I remember when the Turbos first appeared and BR were running around with angle-grinders shaving the edges off platforms because of their extra width.

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, Mike_Walker said:

Incidentally I think you will find the speed limiter kicks in at 124mph; it's something to do with the programming of the management computer as I understand it.  They will go a lot faster.  A couple of years back a TPE driver, who thought he'd engaged the speed limiter, glanced down at the speedo and found himself doing 150mph!  He quickly slowed down and reported himself to the signaller (in accordance with the rules).  There was a notice to all drivers of 80x units at all companies as a result reminding them of the correct procedure for engaging the speed limiter and ensuring it is working correctly.

Surely it would be better for the speed limiter to be engaged by default, with disengagement only by positive action?

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

But should that really matter? I didn't pay for my ticket, my employer paid, but that does not take away the discomfort and inconvenience of standing for 90 min. Why should you have to put up with that regardless of what you have paid?

The contract created when a ticket is held (whether purchased by the user, by a third party, issued free of charge or by other means) requires the operator to convey the passenger between the stated points by the most expedient means. 
 

No guarantee is offered that a seat will be available (even if reserved / allocated) nor that the journey will even be made by train.

 

The reservation system always blocks out a small number of seats for use by Duty Pass holders. These cannot be reserved. If the train is full and standing pass-holders should allow fare-paying customers to be seated.  
 

Standing has long been the unenviable lot of the commuter as demand exceeds capacity. Usually at peak times and closer to major cities. It remains the target that no person shall be obliged to stand fir more than 20 minutes; when this target is breached the train is carrying “passengers in excess of capacity”, PIXC in jargon and sometimes alliterated to “pixies”. 
 

As train speeds increased and journey times shortened - notably when the HST sets arrived - so long-distance commuting became an option. The early morning trains from Leeds to Kings Cross were full and standing all the way. Often with construction workers. 
 

Just prior to Covid the railways were carrying the largest number of passengers ever recorded in peace-time. That was unsustainable. Too many trains were too crowded for too long. The bubble was leaking before Covid burst it overnight - passenger numbers into London Waterloo had already peaked around 2018. 
 

It is uncomfortable to have to stand. It can mean everyone on the train is uncomfortable. Intrusion by others into what space you have is unavoidable. Access to the toilets can be difficult. Dr SWMBO (who must be seated for medical reasons) once found herself unable to reach the cubicle in good time and when she did she found it was occupied by four passengers with nowhere else to stand. 
 

I managed to photograph the overcrowded conditions (which persisted from London to Exeter) and sent the images to GWR. Their response was that so long as one could board the train it was “not overcrowded”.  I estimated that in our coach alone there were at least 70 people standing, crouched under or on tables or otherwise unable to take a seat.
 

That is almost double the seated capacity of the carriage. At what point does it become dangerous?  

 

 

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, Gwiwer said:

That is almost double the seated capacity of the carriage. At what point does it become dangerous?

At the point at which the total vehicle mass exceeds the design maximum, which may be a function of number of passengers and/or braking capability and/or structural integrity, for example.

[corneliuslundie]

But there is also the safety of the passengers which should be considered. Are passengers having to stand/sit in a way which endangers their health or safety?

But who would you sue if your health was affected: Hitachi, GWR or DaFT?

Jonathan  

[big jim]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Surely it would be better for the speed limiter to be engaged by default, with disengagement only by positive action?

the speed limiter on the 805 and 807 is set to a default 125mph and is active all the time, you change it manually where required.
 

cant say I’ve ever tried to see if I can make it go higher than 125mph or turn it off though, I’ll have a play next time I’m on one 

[Gwiwer]

57 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But there is also the safety of the passengers which should be considered. Are passengers having to stand/sit in a way which endangers their health or safety?

But who would you sue if your health was affected: Hitachi, GWR or DaFT?

Jonathan  

GWR is the carrier responsible for how many passengers are aboard their trains whether correctly formed or not and for preventing a dangerous overload by limiting that access.  

 

If they in turn were to take action against Hitachi for failure to provide the trains per contract and either of those then sued the DaFT on what ever grounds they could find those would be, to my mind, different matters.