Hornby model shop Tiers system

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Although I can't get numbers for obvious reasons, apparently the majority of trade are in Tier 2, so to suggest that there is something wrong with this is a mistake.

Only Tier 1 gets priority , per the initial press release . Clearly it’s a hierarchy , so that still means if you place orders with a Tier 2 retailer there is still a risk you may not get it ? Depending on deliveries, of course , but then none are earmarked for Tier 3 , so Tier 2 are now the tail end Charlie’s so  presumably that’s where any shortfall would hit . 
 

I really do wonder who is in Tier 1 . There are two shops mentioned, certainly with High st  shops but both of whom have commissions , so could be considered by H to be competition - straight Tier 3 material . 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Legend

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

You are not describing Hornby management, you are describing the modern world of contract manufacturing. There is another thread on RMWeb musing on the Hornby R154 Sir Dinaden, a 1976 release that was a real parts-bin job. You can pretty easily keep it running today, most parts can be found, but it doesn't look too much like an N15. 
Pretty much all our models today are one-off batch productions which may or may not share some parts with other releases but will not have been designed as anything other than a specific run that will not be repeated the same way. If you are going to take a previous model and change it, you cannot expect that just because a more modern variant exists, it will use the same parts in the same order wired or supplied in the same way. That may be frustrating from an engineering point of view but it is not the focus of Hornby's business to provide a comprehensive set of interchangeable parts for their models, they source those models from a supply chain infrastructure.

Even with locos that look identical, most, if not all tenders dating from pre-sound days have been redesigned to accommodate chips and speakers. The mounting points have been moved to make room and fitting (for instance) a new chassis to a not-very-much-older body won't be straightforward.

 

John

[adb968008]

23 minutes ago, Legend said:

Only Tier 1 gets priority , per the initial press release . Clearly it’s a hierarchy , so that still means if you place orders with a Tier 2 retailer there is still a risk you may not get it ? Depending on deliveries, of course , but then none are earmarked for Tier 3 , so Tier 2 are now the tail end Charlie’s so  presumably that’s where any shortfall would hit . 

Its built on the assumption their is actually enough to supply their tier 1 retailers...

There is also a further risk of moving some pre-orders by customers from someone they presume or know to be Tier 2, upto a Tier 1 customer.. which is just load shifting demand... and at the detriment to those who are Tier 2.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

i dont think it will change anything about security of pre-orders and is more of a distration from what this was all about... pre-orders...

 

I suspect theres some dissapointment still to come, and Hornby will still be thrown under the bus if they cant supply.

 

 

 

 

I'd suggest that if Hornby continue to be "unable to supply" for too long, it will amount to them throwing themselves under the bus and the relative trickle of direct commissioners will grow, if not to a flood, to quite a healthy flow that may become too strong for Hornby to turn back. 

 

Unfortunately, Hornby's "main competitor" seems to lack the ability, the inclination, or both, to mount any real challenge to their dominance, and Hornby continue to get away with customer service that would see them out of business in most other fields.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the emergence of an agency offering design work and prototype research services to retailers, or groups thereof, who lack the capacity to do it for themselves.

 

John

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'd suggest that if Hornby continue to be "unable to supply" for too long, it will amount to them throwing themselves under the bus and the relative trickle of direct commissioners will grow, if not to a flood, to quite a healthy stream. 

 

John

That I have no doubts about.

Chinas manufacturers are eager and willing to supply.

 

In the right environment (ie give then space, understand the language translation barrier, dont attack them.. they are designers not enthusiasts, and let them engage), I know they would like to contribute on forums like this, but thats for another thread.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by adb968008

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Hornby have NOT said that stores must sell exclusively Hornby to be in the top tier or continue to be supplied.

 

As such a retailer in ANY tier is at perfect liberty to also stock Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan, Acurascale, EFE, etc. alongside Hornby.

 

What Hornby have basically said is that if a retailer commissions their own products they are perceived to be in competition with Hornbys own products / plans then Hornby won't supply them.

 

This is no different to what Bachmann do and led to Hattons not being able to order stock from Bachmann a few years back.

 

The NEW element with respect to Hornby seems to be an additional bunch of requirements, many of them highly subjective and ultimately designed twist the bias of who Hornby supply in favour retailers who shift lots of Hornby group products but who are not in any way a 'threat' to Hornbys finances.

 

That is what has caused the concern with smaller retailers.

Your statement about retailer commissions seems unequivocal .Hattons position is downgraded.Rails no longer in the game but there are in fact,as has just been noted,a few other retailers who commission stuff,notably the excellent Kernow,a particular favourite with many on this forum. They have quite recently used Hornby for,for example Class 31 but also produce their own stuff . I cannot for the life of me imagine that Hornby  would have the temerity to disadvantage this retailer. Then there’s Locomotion Shildon,NRM,closely linked with Rails,who are about to bring the Dapol Wainwright D Museum edition to market. I mean,where does all this nonsense end ?

[GWRtrainman]

11 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'd suggest that if Hornby continue to be "unable to supply" for too long, it will amount to them throwing themselves under the bus and the relative trickle of direct commissioners will grow, if not to a flood, to quite a healthy stream. 

 

Unfortunately, Hornby's "main competitor" seems to lack the ability to mount any real challenge to their dominance, and Hornby continue to get away with customer service that would see them out of business in most other fields.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the emergence of an agency offering design work and prototype research services to retailers, or groups thereof, who lack the capacity to do it for themselves.

 

John

Step forward a man called Dave....

 

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Your statement about retailer commissions seems unequivocal .Hattons position is downgraded.Rails no longer in the game but there are in fact,as has just been noted,a few other retailers who commission stuff,notably the excellent Kernow,a particular favourite with many on this forum. They have quite recently used Hornby for,for example Class 31 but also produce their own stuff . I cannot for the life of me imagine that Hornby  would have the temerity to disadvantage this retailer. Then there’s Locomotion Shildon,NRM,closely linked with Rails,who are about to bring the Dapol Wainwright D Museum edition to market. I mean,where does all this nonsense end ?

It's rapidly becoming clear that there is no logical pattern to any of what Hornby are currently doing, or are failing to do, as the case may be.....

 

John

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

where does all this nonsense end ?

Sadly It ends when you get that email that says “my orders have been reduced and I have to cancel yours”..

 

 

Fears for Tiers,

theres even a song about it...

 

 

 

 

 

[Kris]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

interesting Kernow hasn't popped up in the discussion... they have a lot of comissions...Beatties, 02, Railmotor, Dj j94, D600, 102xx etc, and some of their toolings have gone to nationwide distribution via a Hornby competitor, which actually is quite the opposite of Hattons who I understand have quietly retreated from their wholesale to retail channel... is it ok to compete if you have a nice shop ?

Possibly Hornby don't see these commissions as competing products as they are generally more niche items with a more limited potential sales. I suspect that should Kernow or any other shop commission a loco that is already in the Hornby catalogue, say an HST, Flying Scotsman or maybe even a class 66 they will very rapidly find themselves on the tier 3 naughty step. 

[Philou]

28 minutes ago, Legend said:

I really do wonder who is in Tier 1

 

I was musing on that very point - the answer has been staring at us. There is only I retailer in Tier 1 - Hornby itself!

 

Why? They have all the stock of all subsiduaries, they have a website (of sorts) and they now have a shop in what could be called a high class outlet, John Lewis!!

 

There you go, all sorted! Everyone else is in 2 or 3.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Hroth]

A quick hack to visualise how Tier branding might look...

 

 

I wonder how long this post will last...

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Hroth

[Ouroborus]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

I find this sensitivity, if not anger. from Hornby towards retailers 'competing' with their products very strange; Given the range Hornby produce is another model of a small southern tank loco really a major threat to their business ?  (to be fair, the same could be said regarding Bachmann and Class 66 models.....). And do Hornby realise that retailers selling their products, in whatever Tier, are highly likely to stock items from other manufacturers directly competing with Hornby, eg Class 08, Mark 1 coaches, Standard Class 4 4-6-0 ? Not to mention track, buildings, scenic materials, etc. 

 

And to this, add second-hand items

 

I was thinking over the "competing products" criteria that Hornby have imposed and the connection with Hatton's.  Whilst the class 66 was produced by Hornby and subsequently by Hattons, I find it a very difficult pill to swallow that Hornby sincerely believe that the Hatton's 66 affected the sales of their own model.  Moreover, if my memory serves me correctly, as fast as Hatton's announced a livery (Biffa, Belmond etc), Hornby announced a model in the same livery, clearly taking sales away from Hatton's.  I was one of them, choosing to go for the cheap and cheerful Hornby model versus bells and whistles of the Hatton's model at double the price.  

So did Hornby really lose out from the Hatton's 66? I think the opposite could be argued, that sales of the Hornby 66 soared because of the  interest in the Hatton's model.

 

The argument that Hatton's operate little more than a trade counter is a little unfair.  Certainly, it's not a traditional shop based where it is industrial estate, however it wouldn't be the first to exist in such premises and given the high cost of business rates in prime retail areas, the ability to hold more stock for less cost seems sensible.  From my visits there, yes, products do sit on shelves behind glass display cabinets, but I don't see a problem with this and on my last visit there, I was fortunate to meet the guys from modelu and got myself scanned.  They are a little bit more than "box shifters"

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Hroth said:

A quick hack to visualise how Tier branding might look...

 

 

I wonder how long this post will last...

 

Tier 1 - everyone can participate as no-one has upset @AY Mod or @Phil Parker

Tier 2 - means some posters are excluded from making new posts

Tier 3 - thread locked and all new posts banned

 

I think we're Tier 1 still.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

I must stock up on that Heljan trackwork, and the Accurascale controllers. Impressive as their products are only Hornby and Bachmann produce a range you could build an entire layout fron, unless you know different.

 

But why is that relevant?

 

Are you claiming that Heljan/Accurascale/Rapido don't have model trains as their main business (as the original poster I was replying to seemed to be claiming) just because they don't offer a full range?

 

And why is offering a full range even necessary?  Why can't customers buy Peco trackwork to go with their Hornby loco to go with their Bachmann coaches that go with their Accurascale goods wagons and Gaugemaster controller?

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by mdvle

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Trains4U said:

Didn’t Jouef make the Fobbi trains?

(whose TGV I picked up in Cherbourg Continent hypermarket back in 1985)

 

That may make an extra one (fourth variant) that I did not know about. Or not.

 

That may have been a sensible effort to brand one of the three differently so that when parents wanted to buy extra bits for the TGV in January, the model shop could say that it did not stock that brand.

 

When you have shelves full of Jouef, it is difficult to explain to the parents that the Jouef you stock has very little in common with the Jouef that they have.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Your statement about retailer commissions seems unequivocal .Hattons position is downgraded.Rails no longer in the game but there are in fact,as has just been noted,a few other retailers who commission stuff,notably the excellent Kernow,a particular favourite with many on this forum. They have quite recently used Hornby for,for example Class 31 but also produce their own stuff . I cannot for the life of me imagine that Hornby  would have the temerity to disadvantage this retailer. Then there’s Locomotion Shildon,NRM,closely linked with Rails,who are about to bring the Dapol Wainwright D Museum edition to market. I mean,where does all this nonsense end ?

 

So far, none of the Kernow commissions have been in competition with Hornby products - and THAT is the salient point.

 

With Hattons we have the 'Generic' coaches, with Rails the Terrier.

 

Were Kernow to decide to go and commission their own M7 or class 31 I think they would quickly find themselves in the same position as Rails & Hattons...

 

(Note the word 'commission' - if Bachmann or Accrascale bought out a 31 simply stocking it would not be an infringement of Hornbys ' rules)

 

Locomotion are a bit different in that they only sell from their Shildon or York shops plus anything they do release tends to be piggy backed onto another retailer / Manufacturers commission - Witness their model of Boxhill (piggybacked off the Rails Terrier), or the SECR D class (piggybacked off the Rails ones), or the GN Atlantic (derived from Bachmanns model). Moreover as the retail arm of a Heritage / National Museum I expect it would be treated rather differently from ordinary model shops - a fact which Hornby did mention in their press release.

Edited May 26, 2021 by phil-b259

[Trains4U]

I think everyone is reading a lot more into this than is the case...

 

we only know what we have been told and what we have been told is what is shown on page 1 of this thread.

 

 

Sales volume will be one of the factors in determining tier levels along with the others listed (this much was hinted at in the original communication in January)

 

If Retailer sales volumes were plotted on a graph, the pattern would almost certainly have a hockey-stick shape, with lots of similar sized retailers, ramping up quickly to the biggest with some serious volumes 

 

We are probably somewhere on the lower half of the sharply upturning curve,  bigger than perhaps 80% of the other retailers out there, but still miles behind the biggest retailers who are in turn a good 20 x or more bigger than us.

 

 

And for the avoidance of doubt, T1 retailers do exist.   We are one of them (and we are by no means one of the biggest out there)

 

 

[MrTea]

40 minutes ago, Kris said:

Possibly Hornby don't see these commissions as competing products as they are generally more niche items with a more limited potential sales. I suspect that should Kernow or any other shop commission a loco that is already in the Hornby catalogue, say an HST, Flying Scotsman or maybe even a class 66 they will very rapidly find themselves on the tier 3 naughty step. 

I don’t know about you guys but I’m looking forward to the simultaneous 2022 announcements of a new improved Drummond 0F saddle tank AKA ‘Smokey Joe’ from:

Hattons, Rails, Bachmann, Accuracscale, Rapido, Dapol, Heljan, KR Models and Kato. 
 

That’ll probably melt the RMWeb servers if nothing else!

[Phil Parker]

46 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

I was musing on that very point - the answer has been staring at us. There is only I retailer in Tier 1 - Hornby itself!

 

Why? They have all the stock of all subsiduaries, they have a website (of sorts) and they now have a shop in what could be called a high class outlet, John Lewis!!

 

There you go, all sorted! Everyone else is in 2 or 3.

 

 

 

I know of at least two retailers who are Tier 1. Sorry to disappoint you.

[PaulRhB]

12 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

And for the avoidance of doubt, T1 retailers do exist.   We are one of them (and we are by no means one of the biggest out there)

Gareth, do you feel confident that you can order enough to fulfil all pre orders though with that info, or too early to say in this latest development? That was the missing assurance I noted from the statement. 
What worries me the most at present is the lack of confidence in two smaller shops being able to supply certain popular items. I respect the honesty that they told me that was a risk. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by PaulRhB

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, MrTea said:

I don’t know about you guys but I’m looking forward to the simultaneous 2022 announcements of a new improved Drummond 0F saddle tank AKA ‘Smokey Joe’ from:

Hattons, Rails, Bachmann, Accuracscale, Rapido, Dapol, Heljan, KR Models and Kato. 
 

That’ll probably melt the RMWeb servers if nothing else!

Well Heljan did do an A3 and an A4 for Hattons, so how about a 4mm Flying Scotsman from Hattons followed by Mallard.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

Gareth, do you feel confident that you can order enough to fulfil all pre orders though with that info, or too early to say in this latest development? That was the missing assurance I noted from the statement. 

I don't think anyone can make such an assurance, what exists today may not exist tomorrow, next week or next year - ask Hattons.

 

You have to go on your gut feel I think and hope it comes good.

[Phil Parker]

38 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

But why is that relevant?

 

Are you claiming that Heljan/Accurascale/Rapido don't have model trains as their main business (as the original poster I was replying to seemed to be claiming) just because they don't offer a full range?

 

And why is offering a full range even necessary?  Why can't customers buy Peco trackwork to go with their Hornby loco to go with their Bachmann coaches that go with their Accurascale goods wagons and Gaugemaster controller?

 

 

 

It is relevant because you answered the point

 

"Hornby, and to some extent Farish, Peco and Bachmann are charged with funding a complete system for the newcomer and the enthusiast, they have at least 4 margins in their product, factory, themselves, an overseas distributor, and a store. "

 

with:

 

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

Again, same as Heljan, Rapido, Accurascale, etc.

 

Except it isn't the same. The brands you quoted do not offer a complete range. Whether it's important that anyone offers a complete range is a different discussion, the fact is that those manufacturers operate a different business model to Hornby, despite what you said.

[PaulRhB]

“don't think anyone can make such an assurance, what exists today may not exist tomorrow, next week or next year - ask Hattons.

 

You have to go on your gut feel I think and hope it comes good.”

 

That’s why I’m asking someone in the business rather than Rmweb opinion though  

Edited May 26, 2021 by PaulRhB