Cavalex - all new Class 56 in OO

[ColinB]

27 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

 

Yep definitely no card in the DC ones. Maybe it can be included as part of the DCC sound upgrade pack when available

It is on page 23 of the General Information and Driving Instructions manual that came with mine. The sound decoder I bought from Road and Rails fitted with the Cavalex software/calibration agrees with the commands exactly.

[The Fatadder]

On 01/02/2024 at 16:47, ColinB said:

I remembered I had a LaisDCC 21 pin decoder in another loco, so I put that in to see what happens. 

 

F0 is front headlight

F1 is front lights

F2 is back lights

F3 is fan #1

F4 is fan #2

 

So it appears you need one of those special decoders as per Hattons class 66 and Accurascale diesels to get the cab lighting. So you are dead right, which I think means you are tied into a LokSound decoder. I don't think Zimo make one with that many outputs.

What switch position were you using to get the fan working on a non ESU chip?

[Slacky89]

Great to hear about the sound upgrade pack coming down the line soon! 

 

I'm currently using a Dapol decoder in my Class 56 and setting both dip switches to DC operation will give you operation of the fans. 

 

When I turn the power to my layout off my Class 56 shoots background, I presume that's the stay alive discharging? 

Edited February 15 by Slacky89

[The Fatadder]

3 minutes ago, Slacky89 said:

Great to hear about the sound upgrade pack coming down the line soon! 

 

I'm currently using a Dapol decoder in my Class 56 and setting both dip switches to DC operation will give you operation of the fans. 

 

When I turn the power to my layout off my Class 56 shoots background, I presume that's the stay alive discharging? 

Interesting as I’m also using the Dapol chip, but only have the headlights / high intensity working is your the original or the 8 fct version?

 

if I could get the fans working it would be more than adequate until I get round to upgrading to sound 

 

I’ve also had the loco shooting off when the power is switched off. The first time almost going off the end of the layout before grabbing it 

Edited February 15 by The Fatadder

[Slacky89]

11 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

Interesting as I’m also using the Dapol chip, but only have the headlights / high intensity working is your the original or the 8 fct version?

 

if I could get the fans working it would be more than adequate until I get round to upgrading to sound 

 

I’ve also had the loco shooting off when the power is switched off. The first time almost going off the end of the layout before grabbing it 

 

Just the original chip. Have headlights and high intensity like you but independent fan operation on F3 and F4

Edited February 15 by Slacky89

[ColinB]

10 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

What switch position were you using to get the fan working on a non ESU chip?

I left them as they were. I only changed them when I replaced the decoder with the proper sound decoder.

[RBE]

10 hours ago, IOW O2 said:

Thanks for info.  The nail is to push the coupling to follow curve as if it were on the bogie. (not explaining this well). Hope the 60 has bogie ones.

 

I use GM simulation/inertia controllers so use a lot of coasting to slow before applying the brake to stop.  Only tested against others after slowing into terminal platform first time and stopped shorter than expected when brake applied .  Has much better control than the others now I've done more running (a lot) today.

 

At least with your DC we get the switchable cab lights, I like them on, esp. when room lights in dusk.  Just need the fan answer, Great model and has relegated the Deltic now.

 

 

 

 

I am looking at revising the the model to have bogie mounted pockets for the 60 but it will depend on whether they foul the snowplough etc. 

 

As for the fans on DC, there is an issue with the current DC blanking plate and we will be making a replacement available that solves the issue soon.

[Gilbert]

8 minutes ago, RBE said:

I am looking at revising the the model to have bogie mounted pockets for the 60 but it will depend on whether they foul the snowplough etc. 

 

I'm yet to fit Kadees to my 56s - is the coupler pocket design going to make a coupling/uncoupling problematic if any curve is involved?

Has anyone out there tried it?

I won't get round to it for a day or to - I certainly plan to use my RF liveried 56 for a bit of shunting on Penmaenbach which has long Peco BH points.

Chris

[RBE]

1 minute ago, Gilbert said:

I'm yet to fit Kadees to my 56s - is the coupler pocket design going to make a coupling/uncoupling problematic if any curve is involved?

Has anyone out there tried it?

I won't get round to it for a day or to - I certainly plan to use my RF liveried 56 for a bit of shunting on Penmaenbach which has long Peco BH points.

Chris

No more so than any other kinematic coupler. It's a standard design.

 

Uncoupling Kadees on curves is problematic whether the pocket is kinematic or not.

[Gilbert]

1 minute ago, RBE said:

No more so than any other kinematic coupler. It's a standard design.

 

Uncoupling Kadees on curves is problematic whether the pocket is kinematic or not.

Thanks - in which I should be fine as I have Bachman and SLW locos that work well on the layout already - I was concerned that the nail modification may be necessary!

Chris

[RBE]

Just now, Gilbert said:

Thanks - in which I should be fine as I have Bachman and SLW locos that work well on the layout already - I was concerned that the nail modification may be necessary!

Chris

If I'm honest I still don't know what the nail does. 🤷

[BR Blue]

17 minutes ago, RBE said:

If I'm honest I still don't know what the nail does. 🤷

You are not alone. I cannot see what it does apart from being able to say "I nailed it" if it does work.

[david12345]

1 hour ago, RBE said:

I am looking at revising the the model to have bogie mounted pockets for the 60 but it will depend on whether they foul the snowplough etc. 

 

As for the fans on DC, there is an issue with the current DC blanking plate and we will be making a replacement available that solves the issue soon.

This would be great, I am having problems with pulling wagons round curves with mine. Weighting the 1st wagon makes everything run perfectly. Waiting on Kadees arriving which will hopefully solve the issue. Might try some ptfe dry lubricant too to see if it helps.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, RBE said:

If I'm honest I still don't know what the nail does. 🤷

 

1 hour ago, BR Blue said:

You are not alone. I cannot see what it does apart from being able to say "I nailed it" if it does work.

As far as I can see, the nail is arranged to nudge the pocket over when the bogie rotates rather than relying on the force exerted from the vehicle it is coupled to - but presumably only in one direction, so I assume the model has to be the right way round. A number of kinematic mounting arrangements on coaches are arranged so that the rotation of the bogie nudges the pocket in the direction of the curve but as long as the pocket is free-moving it's not a requirement, and on the Cavalex 56 the rather nifty NEM mounting for the dummy screw coupling is reliant on the pocket not moving by itself on curves.

[RBE]

47 minutes ago, david12345 said:

This would be great, I am having problems with pulling wagons round curves with mine. Weighting the 1st wagon makes everything run perfectly. Waiting on Kadees arriving which will hopefully solve the issue. Might try some ptfe dry lubricant too to see if it helps.

The issue with Kinematics, and this is something that I have faced as a modeller too, is that they are great if your train is light. However the nature of how it works is a little counter productive. The weight of the train is taken on the chassis as the coupling moves out on the curve extending the spring that holds the coupling central, however when moving back onto a straight the coupling has to pull itself back in to get over the central 'mountain' that pulls the train back in reducing buffer gap. That's all well and good but the very spring that has to stretch on corners now has to overcome the weight of the train to bring it back to centre. You are effectively asking the spring to be both contradictory things. I do often wonder if we need to drop the buffer gap pride a little and just simply substitute the kinematic couplers for a simple sprung draught box.

Edited February 16 by RBE

[The Fatadder]

11 hours ago, Slacky89 said:

 

Just the original chip. Have headlights and high intensity like you but independent fan operation on F3 and F4

Very confused as to why mine is refusing to behave now, as far as i can tell everything is set up to at the very least give manual control over the same as you have achieved with the earlier version of the Dapol chip (and in theory the tail lights as well)

Guess the next step will be swapping over with the chip in my deltic and seeing if the decoder will work all 8 functions in that in order to eliminate a partially faulty decoder 

[IOW O2]

3 hours ago, RBE said:

As for the fans on DC, there is an issue with the current DC blanking plate and we will be making a replacement available that solves the issue soon.

Yippee.

1 hour ago, RBE said:

The issue with Kinematics, and this is something that I have faced as a modeller too, is that they are great if your train is light. 

3 hours ago, RBE said:

If I'm honest I still don't know what the nail does. 🤷

I'm 5 coaches plus. Drawing below, easier to see the model in action than explain, work's for me once it's off scene into r2&3 in the thru storage tracks. I will say no more I think did not mean to stir up a hornets nest.

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

As far as I can see, the nail is arranged to nudge the pocket over when the bogie rotates rather than relying on the force exerted from the vehicle it is coupled to - but presumably only in one direction, ....

Spot on.

Edited February 16 by IOW O2
added drawing, more info

[atom3624]

Is the nail not restricting movement in the reverse direction?

I find the main issues with kinematic coupling being simply to ensure free and smooth movement, and also to match the tension lock 'hook' dimensions as closely as possible - there are a huge number of very slight variations which can throw this operation off at times.

Al.

[Revolution Mike B]

The whole idea of the kinematic mech is to allow the coupler to extend out in an arc when traversing curves to enable close coupling - something which you cannot do with bogie mounted couplers (my comment is not directed at Cav), and the couplers on the 56 do their job well as they will pull with the curve and weight of the train behind it. The reason bogies have a cut out with kinematic systems is to allow the coupler mech to move without fouling the bogie and not, as assumed, to make the bogie move the coupling mech.
 

There’s a bit of a dark art when designing the things in terms of spring tension, arc, and physical shape, but putting that to one side, on the whole, as a modeller, I would always prefer body mounted kinematic couplers over bogie mounted ones, as with the sprung buffer vs fixed buffer argument. If I didn’t have sprung buffers on certain stock, it wouldn’t go through the fiddle yard on Oak Road when close coupled, or in this case, without kinematic mechs on the couplers.  
 

As an aside, the best kinematic coupling system I’ve ever seen is made by Symoba and its tiny but has an unbelievably smooth mechanism. It’s also a very simple design that eradicates any stickiness within the movement. 
 

[RBE]

8 minutes ago, Revolution Mike B said:

The whole idea of the kinematic mech is to allow the coupler to extend out in an arc when traversing curves to enable close coupling - something which you cannot do with bogie mounted couplers (my comment is not directed at Cav), and the couplers on the 56 do their job well as they will pull with the curve and weight of the train behind it. The reason bogies have a cut out with kinematic systems is to allow the coupler mech to move without fouling the bogie and not, as assumed, to make the bogie move the coupling mech.
 

There’s a bit of a dark art when designing the things in terms of spring tension, arc, and physical shape, but putting that to one side, on the whole, as a modeller, I would always prefer body mounted kinematic couplers over bogie mounted ones, as with the sprung buffer vs fixed buffer argument. If I didn’t have sprung buffers on certain stock, it wouldn’t go through the fiddle yard on Oak Road when close coupled, or in this case, without kinematic mechs on the couplers.  
 

As an aside, the best kinematic coupling system I’ve ever seen is made by Symoba and its tiny but has an unbelievably smooth mechanism. It’s also a very simple design that eradicates any stickiness within the movement. 
 

Whilst I agree to a degree, our PGA kinematics are absolutely superb, they do in general cause more trouble than they solve IMO. The idea behind them is good but as I said once you get a lot of weight on them you are relying massively on the spring pulling it to centre or the brute force of the coupling pulling sideways back to centre by the stock to get it into the middle at which  point you potentially get the aforementioned potential derailing of the first wagon. On top of that there is more vertical movement in the pocket which is also undesirable.

Edited February 16 by RBE

[Pendle Forest]

I've a fan question too.  I've a LokPilot decoder from trains4u fitted and it has been proper programmed.  I've tried the DIP switches for the fans in both settings and they don't seem to work.  They should be on F9 and 10.  Are the fans speed dependent?  It's a shunting puzzle so nothing moves quickly and I wonder if they are working but they aren't meeting a 'threshold' to start turning.  Any help much appreciated

 

[Revolution Mike B]

13 minutes ago, RBE said:

Whilst I agree to a degree, our PGA kinematics are absolutely superb, they do in general cause more trouble than they solve IMO. The idea behind them is good but as I said once you get a lot of weight on them you are relying massively on the spring pulling it to centre or the brute force of the coupling pulling sideways back to centre by the stock to get it into the middle at which  point you potentially get the aforementioned potential derailing of the first wagon. On top of that there is more vertical movement in the pocket which is also undesirable.

I’ll bring a Symoba up to MRS Cav 👍

[RBE]

4 minutes ago, Revolution Mike B said:

I’ll bring a Symoba up to MRS Cav 👍

Cool. I'm only there on the Friday though mate.

[The Fatadder]

19 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

I've a fan question too.  I've a LokPilot decoder from trains4u fitted and it has been proper programmed.  I've tried the DIP switches for the fans in both settings and they don't seem to work.  They should be on F9 and 10.  Are the fans speed dependent?  It's a shunting puzzle so nothing moves quickly and I wonder if they are working but they aren't meeting a 'threshold' to start turning.  Any help much appreciated

 

Certainly for the sound fitted example it was mentioned earlier in the thread that the fans are driven by how hard the loco is working.  I assume the same is true if you are running a lokpilot with the full Cavalex settings.

 

Whereas on a non LokPilot / non cavalex setup the fans are on F3/F4 and are controlled by switching on the function.

[newbryford]

As I normally run locos on trains and red tails on the loco are not required [*] , I've made it easier for my team at an exhibition to plonk the loco on, turn the lights on, select direction and go.

 

I've reversed the logic of the F8 and F9 keys using a Lokprogrammer.

 

 

If I want to turn the centre headlight off - it's F9 on/active

If I want tail lights - it's F8 on/active

 

[*] It's a pet dislike of mine to see locos hauling trains, but with taillights on - even though I've had the odd one recorded on video on my layout...... (please explain/form 1 duly issued)

 

The red circle is the modified logic.

 

 

 

E&OE.....