61.5 foot Gresley Full Brake... What's the sticky out bit and why does no model have it on?

[Esmedune]

Can anyone tell me what the sticky out bit is? I can't even figure its purpose.


My problem is, None of the versions I can see, even the kits include this feature, they just have something akin to a brake van.  However non of the models are of this exact version of the Gresley Full Brake, as this one should have 5 single windows on this side, not just the one, seen on the Hornby one.



For starters though, I would just love to know what they sticky out bit is called ;-)

Edited August 24, 2021 by Esmedune
Typo

[brossard]

I built the 52' Gresley BG (Kirk kit in 0 gauge) and I've checked the pics.  It would be a guards ducket.  They were on just one side which may be why you think they are not represented.  Evidently they did not necessarily look like your pic. 

 

 

 

 

From the looks of it I'm suspecting the pictured coach is perhaps pregrouping.

 

HTH

 

John

Edited August 24, 2021 by brossard

[micklner]

The Hornby LNER version is missing the Ducket moulding. Contact Hornby as they were missing from a whole batch of them, they hopefully still have the missing part in stock.

[Bernard Lamb]

5 hours ago, Esmedune said:

Can anyone tell me what the sticky out bit is? I can't even figure its purpose.


My problem is, None of the versions I can see, even the kits include this feature, they just have something akin to a brake van.  However non of the models are of this exact version of the Gresley Full Brake, as this one should have 5 single windows on this side, not just the one, seen on the Hornby one.



For starters though, I would just love to know what they sticky out bit is called ;-)

It looks like a GNR vehicle. They had the longer type of ducket as in your photo but the later LNER versions had the brake van type. You say that you have never seen it on a kit built model and that is probably because kits of this version are rather rare.

Bernard

[Bucoops]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

It looks like a GNR vehicle. They had the longer type of ducket as in your photo but the later LNER versions had the brake van type. You say that you have never seen it on a kit built model and that is probably because kits of this version are rather rare.

Bernard

 

Agreed, the photo of the real coach is of GNR origin, the model LNER. Don't know a great deal about the GNR variants, but there were quite a lot of diagrams under LNER, different widths, with and without duckets, turnbuckle or angle iron underframes, and 51ft or 60ft underframe of course.

[Bernard Lamb]

In an old topic on teak coaches. By 31A I think.

Bernard

[jwealleans]

The type of ducket in the first photo was used by the GNR under Howlden and on early Gresley vehicles.   Gresley then went to a pressed steel type with rounded top and bottom.

 

This is a Howlden brake vehicle, with ducket:

 

 

This is the end of a Gresley brake.  You can see the different shape of the ducket:

 

 

This is the end of an LNER Gresley carriage by Headstock.   Again, the different shape of the pressed steel ducket is obvious:

 

 

Full brakes usually only had them on one side.  See Steve Banks's website, just over half way down this page, for detailed information and photographs of different types.

 

 

[RichardT]

9 hours ago, Esmedune said:

I can't even figure its purpose.

Not sure this bit of the OP has been answered yet.

 

As you can see from some of the photos above, there are small windows in the sides of the ducket.  The purpose of the ducket was to allow the guard to look along the side of the train safely, rather than just sticking his head out of a window. The ducket kept his head protected, within the loading gauge, and shielded from wind/rain/snow.  

Some companies fitted periscopes to their passenger guards vans for the same purpose.
 

Apologies for teaching grandparents to suck eggs if you already knew this!

 

Richard

[jwealleans]

You're right, I neglected to mention that.   Also that a friend of mine who was a guard on the NYMR mentioned that they were rarely used, most people just sticking their head through the droplight.  

[Mallard60022]

36 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Not sure this bit of the OP has been answered yet.

 

As you can see from some of the photos above, there are small windows in the sides of the ducket.  The purpose of the ducket was to allow the guard to look along the side of the train safely, rather than just sticking his head out of a window. The ducket kept his head protected, within the loading gauge, and shielded from wind/rain/snow.  

Some companies fitted periscopes to their passenger guards vans for the same purpose.
 

Apologies for teaching grandparents to suck eggs if you already knew this!

 

Richard

Some Brakes also had two Periscopes for the Guard to be able to see whichever way the Brake was set in the train; famous 'Loose' Bulleid Brakes on the SR had twin Scopes. Think some MK1s were the same?

I would never have know that in my spotty spotting days way way back in time.

I also think that is why Gresley Passenger Brakes had inset  Guards' portions (as did some Maunsells) so that the Ducket was within Gauge?

P

[Esmedune]

It is LNER 109, which is part of the National collection, and originally it was East Coast Joint Stock (ECJS). Nice to know it is called a ducket, that has made my day ;-)

[Esmedune]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

See Steve Banks's website, just over half way down this page, for detailed information and photographs of different types.

That's a crackin' site, he does not cover this 1908 model though, as the one there only has 3 windows on the side, 109 has 5 including a toilet.  This is going to be harder than expected...


It does show a ducket on both sides with the red lamps atop both of them for the three window version.

 

[Steamport Southport]

We had a previous thread about the origins of the name.

 

Seems to have come from "dove cot". A place that you rear doves/pigeons for food, but many were used as observation posts or look outs.

 

https://www.rosscottages.co.uk/the-ducket-northumberland.cfm

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

The shape changed after, some time after actually, the time that side lamps were no longer used on passenger trains, following the requirement for all vehicles on such trains to have automatic brakes.  The GNR vehicle in the photo shows this, and the lamp can be reversed from inside the ducket.  
 

On freight brake vans, the ducket has a leather padded back rest, and of vital importance, leather padded shoulder pads to protect the guard in the case of a ‘snatch’ or sudden braking with loose coupled trains. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co205888/east-coast-joint-stock-passenger-brake-van-railway-carriage

[jwealleans]

46 minutes ago, Esmedune said:

he does not cover this 1908 model though

 

You might well find that that is unique, having been part of the Royal train.  I can't think of another LNER or constituent BG with a lav, for a start.

 

If i think on I'll have a look at GN diagram 38 tonight and see how it started life.  

[Paul H Vigor]

Guard's duckets are fitted with windows allowing the guard to look along the train in motion.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

You might well find that that is unique, having been part of the Royal train.  I can't think of another LNER or constituent BG with a lav, for a start.

 

You can't have railwaymen using the Royal Box!

[jwealleans]

According to the Railway Heritage Register online, built to ECJS D 38 in 1908, modified to Royal Train use 1927.   GNR diagrams 286, 287 or 308 are very close, but have the reduced number of windows.  I'd hazard that the extra ones are from its Royal or later use.

[DayReturn]

The extra width would constrain route availability, although some were self-adjusting:  The Midland introduced a new design for its city to city express services in 1897-1898, notably the Bradford-Bristol service, with a very ornate ducket design.  Within a year the vehicles found a particular location where the loading gauge was to a local standard, and the presumably now ventilated van was hastily returned to its more streamlined shape with no ducket.  Later versions (later as in immediately) had a much simpler, slender lookout.  No record I am aware of, of adjustments to the guard's profile however.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, DayReturn said:

No record I am aware of, of adjustments to the guard's profile however.

He's still quite a portly gentleman then?

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, DayReturn said:

The extra width would constrain route availability, although some were self-adjusting:  The Midland introduced a new design for its city to city express services in 1897-1898, notably the Bradford-Bristol service, with a very ornate ducket design.  Within a year the vehicles found a particular location where the loading gauge was to a local standard, and the presumably now ventilated van was hastily returned to its more streamlined shape with no ducket.  Later versions (later as in immediately) had a much simpler, slender lookout.  No record I am aware of, of adjustments to the guard's profile however.

 

Not quite immediately. Provision of the large guard's lookouts (which gave an overall width of 9'6" on a carriage body 8'6" wide) on new construction ceased around the middle of 1899, with the lookouts being removed from the 128 vehicles already given them. Plain panelling was substituted until a replacement design was introduced in early 1902 and retro-fitted to the existing brake vehicles. This was the flat profile design that set the standard for later Midland and LMS guard's lookouts - broadly similar to the LNER type shown above. 

 

Close examination of drawing 1128 for the 6-wheeled passenger brake vans in this style will reveal the details of the original lookouts and the plain panelling that replaced them [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D0119].

Edited August 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[DayReturn]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Close examination of drawing 1128 for the 6-wheeled passenger brake vans in this style will reveal the details of the original lookouts and the plain panelling that replaced them [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D0119].

Oh that is excellent!  Thank you very, very much for that link, the drawing reveals so much that hitherto I'd strained to glean from the few photos of the B to B train.  Just a bit too late since I've already reached the painting stage of my attempt at a Lot 389 full brake in its original shape.  It's based on a Slaters D532 full brake and I carved the lookout ogees from scraps of plastic and a styrene sheet box for the body of the lookout.  I also re-profiled the clerestory to the original 13'3" plus small lamptops after noticing that a GA diagram of a 48' coach reproduced in Midland Record had been amended and showed both profiles.  The red ink on your linked diagram says it all!  What I couldn't determine but now can, was the arrangements of lights in the clerestory, beyond the paneling on the Slaters moulding.  Still, no one will ever notice, will they!  The rest of the train is taking shape in Silhouette diagrams not yet cut, plus the full third approximated from a cut-and-shut of two Ratio lavatory 3rds (also with altered clerestory profile).  The Single to pull it along is still untouched in London Road Models' box.

Edited August 26, 2021 by DayReturn

[DayReturn]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

He's still quite a portly gentleman then?

We can only imagine.  Perhaps there is a loading gauge for train crew, but my mind's eye has the northbound guard and his southbound counterpart peering through their lookouts as the trains approach each other somewhere about 10 miles north of Birmingham, followed by a splintering crash and draughts of fresh air filling their respective vehicles.  My concern was for their heads rather than their waistlines.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, DayReturn said:

We can only imagine.  Perhaps there is a loading gauge for train crew, but my mind's eye has the northbound guard and his southbound counterpart peering through their lookouts as the trains approach each other somewhere about 10 miles north of Birmingham, followed by a splintering crash and draughts of fresh air filling their respective vehicles.  My concern was for their heads rather than their waistlines.

 

In fact the lookout clash wasn't with the Bristol-Bradford sets but occurred at Bakewell on 13 June 1899 - the new Clerestory stock was early onto the Manchester services; in addition to the two 4-coach sets of 60 ft carriages built in 1898 - one of which was involved in the Wellingborough smash of September that year destroying two of the carriages - many general service 48 ft lavatory carriages (per Ratio) were on the Manchester route along with the 6-wheelers.

 

8 hours ago, DayReturn said:

Oh that is excellent!  Thank you very, very much for that link, the drawing reveals so much that hitherto I'd strained to glean from the few photos of the B to B train.  Just a bit too late since I've already reached the painting stage of my attempt at a Lot 389 full brake in its original shape.  It's based on a Slaters D532 full brake and I carved the lookout ogees from scraps of plastic and a styrene sheet box for the body of the lookout.  I also re-profiled the clerestory to the original 13'3" plus small lamptops after noticing that a GA diagram of a 48' coach reproduced in Midland Record had been amended and showed both profiles.  The red ink on your linked diagram says it all!  What I couldn't determine but now can, was the arrangements of lights in the clerestory, beyond the paneling on the Slaters moulding.  Still, no one will ever notice, will they!  The rest of the train is taking shape in Silhouette diagrams not yet cut, plus the full third approximated from a cut-and-shut of two Ratio lavatory 3rds (also with altered clerestory profile).  The Single to pull it along is still untouched in London Road Models' box.

 

This sounds magnificent! I hope you will start a topic on this and show us some pictures. I'm especially interested in how you went about modifying the clerestory profile. That full brake drawing is the only one I've seen that shows the double-skinned construction of the clerestory sides; I'm still working out the implications of that for the appearance of a newly-built carriage: