The Chaldrons, By Accurascale

[Bishdurham]

3 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

I'll preface this post by saying, it is NOT intended as criticism towards Accurascale or Locomotion. I'm purely trying to do some research.

 

My question is, do we know with any certainty what the livery of chaldrons under the S&D would have been?

 

Would they have been natural wood colour? Would they have been black? Is the lettering correct? Did they even have lettering?

Wood decays unless you cover it with something to preserve it, be it paint or creosote.  To determine which waggon it was, somebody would have to put some form of identification on it.  But as there was not colour photography in the 1820s it would be difficult to determine what it looked like at the time.  You could argue that if somebody had painted a picture and had used the correct colours, now some 200 years later those colours would have aged and might have changed in shade somewhat.

[Fair Oak Junction]

2 minutes ago, Bishdurham said:

Wood decays unless you cover it with something to preserve it, be it paint or creosote.  To determine which waggon it was, somebody would have to put some form of identification on it.  But as there was not colour photography in the 1820s it would be difficult to determine what it looked like at the time.  You could argue that if somebody had painted a picture and had used the correct colours, now some 200 years later those colours would have aged and might have changed in shade somewhat.

 

And therein lies the problem I guess. Most painting and illustrations of the S&D were done after the fact, and have questionable at best accuracy 😄

So I guess it could be argued It's only ever possible to get "close enough".

[Islesy]

First up I do need to emphasis that the three Chaldron models are based on their condition in preservation, be that at Shildon or in Germany, rather than trying to be examples of how they might have appeared in the mid-19th century. 

 

But with regard to original appearance, they would have been weatherproofed timber, whether that weather proofing came about by creosote, or by pitch, it's impossible to say. Certainly, there are accounts of scrapped wagons being burnt, and the ironwork recovered from the smoldering ashes, combustion being rapid because of the pitch covering, however that pitch could have simply been the result of a residual coal dust and water mix.

 

The single wagon is an emulation of a creosoted finish, based on supplied pictures of the Chaldron in storage.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Thank you for the additional info 👍

[E100]

Well we now have something to pull them in the form of https://uk.Hornby.com/products/s-and-dr-0-4-0-locomotion-no-1-era-11-r30346 

 

Obviously no comment on the full accuracy but nice to hear that Hornby are working to accommodate the Accurascale couplings (though sure only a NEM socket is required!) 13:30 on their YouTube Q&A.

EDIT

 

In hindsight this is probably a very incorrect statement as I suspect some of the recent small industrial locos various manufacturers have been producing and are proposed and some smaller NER types will have almost certainly shunted these about as talked about upthread even if the iconic loco in my eyes is Locomotion for pulling these.

Edited January 9 by E100

[MOB 2002]

7 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

My question is, do we know with any certainty what the livery of chaldrons under the S&D would have been?

 

I don’t want to upset anyone, but the answer is initially at least that they didn’t have any ‘chaldrons’ at all. Indeed it would appear from published research that the Stockton and Darlington even failed to learn the lessons of around 150 years of waggon experience just up the road on the rivers Wear and Tyne… Apparently they didn’t even have bottom doors on the first S&D waggons. 
 

Sadly there’s been a lot of demonstrable rubbish written about ‘chaldrons’ over the years. Indeed, most of the waggons described as ‘chaldrons’ are nothing of the sort, they’re 4T black waggons basically to an 1850s North Eastern Railway design. 
 

Mark 

[Fair Oak Junction]

6 minutes ago, MOB 2002 said:

 

I don’t want to upset anyone, but the answer is initially at least that they didn’t have any ‘chaldrons’ at all. Indeed it would appear from published research that the Stockton and Darlington even failed to learn the lessons of around 150 years of waggon experience just up the road on the rivers Wear and Tyne… Apparently they didn’t even have bottom doors on the first S&D waggons. 
 

Sadly there’s been a lot of demonstrable rubbish written about ‘chaldrons’ over the years. Indeed, most of the waggons described as ‘chaldrons’ are nothing of the sort, they’re 4T black waggons basically to an 1850s North Eastern Railway design. 
 

Mark 

 

That is very interesting, I had no idea. Although in this instance I'm going to have to bend history as I already have a bunch of the Accurascale chaldrons to go behind Locomotion 😉

[MOB 2002]

Just now, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

That is very interesting, I had no idea. Although in this instance I'm going to have to bend history as I already have a bunch of the Accurascale chaldrons to go behind Locomotion 😉

I think there are very few subjects in railway history with as many published untruths as the Stockton and Darlington Railway sadly.

 

The recent research by the NRM on the real history of ‘Locomotion’ has at least started to bring a more accurate version of history to the fore. I’m sure many people will have had their minds blown to learn that there was no such thing as ‘Locomotion’ on the opening day of the S&D for example. 
 

Mark

[Fair Oak Junction]

Fascinating. Oh if only we could travel back in time with cameras, imagine the blanks we'd be able to fill in! So much of early railway history is shrouded in myth and mystery sadly.

[Ian Hargrave]

That said…and undisputed because I have zero knowledge to the contrary…my current rake of loaded Accurascale Chaldrons is an almost magnetic force drawing me constantly to a running session behind whichever industrial motive power I choose.Currently,it’s one of a Hornby Peckett,Rapido Hunslet or the powerful muscle of a Pi Victory.

I eagerly anticipate a similar…if unprototypical….experience with Hornby’s Locomotion No.1.

 

What wonderful little gems these are. And the magnetic chain couplings actually work beautifully.

[MOB 2002]

12 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

I eagerly anticipate a similar…if unprototypical….experience with Hornby’s Locomotion No.1.

It could probably be a fairly prototypical recreation of the 1925 cavalcade!

 

The NER and LNER really were pioneers at what we’d call PR these days - they were so good that the stories they created are still being recounted now.

 

Mark

[Islesy]

1 hour ago, MOB 2002 said:

most of the waggons described as ‘chaldrons’ are nothing of the sort, they’re 4T black waggons basically to an 1850s North Eastern Railway design. 

In much the same way that most vacuum cleaners are not Hoovers!
Sometimes, a name just sticks, and such is the case with the 3T/4T wooden coal hoppers of the North-East. It is a colloquial term that I have no problem with, and which acknowledges the lineage of these Waggons.

 

Best wishes,

Paul

[Islesy]

For those interested, the report by Dr Michael Bailey/Peter Davidson to establish the true history of Locomotion No 1 is available freely to download, as a two part PDF here

Edited January 9 by Islesy

[MOB 2002]

14 minutes ago, Islesy said:

In much the same way that most vacuum cleaners are not Hoovers!
Sometimes, a name just sticks, and such is the case with the 3T/4T wooden coal hoppers of the North-East. It is a colloquial term that I have no problem with, and which acknowledges the lineage of these Waggons.

 

Best wishes,

Paul

It only seems to have stuck among trainspotters from the mid 20th Century bizarrely. Railwaymen who worked with the P1 derived vehicles that the spotters were coming across at the likes of Seaham at the time, always called them black waggons. Perhaps they still understood the etymology of the word Chaldron?
 

Mark 

[Islesy]

24 minutes ago, MOB 2002 said:

It only seems to have stuck among trainspotters from the mid 20th Century bizarrely. Railwaymen who worked with the P1 derived vehicles that the spotters were coming across at the likes of Seaham at the time, always called them black waggons. Perhaps they still understood the etymology of the word Chaldron?
 

Mark 

Possibly so, NER registers describe the 3T/4T Hoppers as Black Waggons, but by then there were so many varieties of the hoppers in service they were literally described ‘as seen’.

It does seem that the term ‘Black Waggon’ was commonly used to describe the Seaham type 4T variety, and there’s no definitive reason why, but it does appear as though it was done as a way of distinguishing them from the earlier, single block braked 3T types.

 

All the best,

Paul

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

9 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

with cameras

Smartphone....so you could ring your parents and tell them you had met your great great grandparents.

[Bomp]

15 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

That said…and undisputed because I have zero knowledge to the contrary…my current rake of loaded Accurascale Chaldrons is an almost magnetic force drawing me constantly to a running session behind whichever industrial motive power I choose.Currently,it’s one of a Hornby Peckett,Rapido Hunslet or the powerful muscle of a Pi Victory.

I eagerly anticipate a similar…if unprototypical….experience with Hornby’s Locomotion No.1.

 

What wonderful little gems these are. And the magnetic chain couplings actually work beautifully.

I’m planning to run mine behind my new Cavalex Class 60 in du course.  

[Bishdurham]

14 hours ago, Islesy said:

In much the same way that most vacuum cleaners are not Hoovers!
Sometimes, a name just sticks, and such is the case with the 3T/4T wooden coal hoppers of the North-East. It is a colloquial term that I have no problem with, and which acknowledges the lineage of these Waggons.

 

Best wishes,

Paul

But do they suck!   Sorry my wife has a Dyson.

[Edwardian]

I reaise that a lot of people will want to run Accurascale chaldrons with Hornby's Locomotion in due course, but this would not be a particularly close match.

 

Given how Hornby cheaped out on representing L&M goods stock, I frankly don't believe Hornby will come good with complementary rolling stock for Locomotion, even though hitherto I had expected that. 

 

So, if Accurascale could be persuaded to do 1820s S&D stock, rather than stuff that's a generation of more later, that would be welcome.

 

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

The chaldrons are good enough for me to run with Locomotion. Just taking off the coal rails at the top helps make them look earlier. I still need to get some S&D lettering done.

 

 

Plus lets not forget, the Hornby Locomotion isn't accurate for the early S&D days either. It's just about giving the impression 😉

Locomotion and the chaldrons are correct for recreating the 1925 centenary replica train, and are close enough to give a reasonable interpretation of the original S&D days.

[Fair Oak Junction]

I'm sure the answer will be no, but are there any suitable wheelsets out there to easily convert these to EM or P4? I know AS themselves don't, but any 3rd party that might?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

I'm sure the answer will be no, but are there any suitable wheelsets out there to easily convert these to EM or P4? I know AS themselves don't, but any 3rd party that might?

 

I think they would look very odd if so converted, as Accurascale have had to compromise the shape of the body and in particular the spacing of the solebar timbers to accommodate the back-to-back distance of the 00 wheelsets - by about 3.5 mm relative to the prototype, I estimate. So wheels to EM or P4 standards would stick out rather oddly.

[Fair Oak Junction]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think they would look very odd if so converted, as Accurascale have had to compromise the shape of the body and in particular the spacing of the solebar timbers to accommodate the back-to-back distance of the 00 wheelsets - by about 3.5 mm relative to the prototype, I estimate. So wheels to EM or P4 standards would stick out rather oddly.

 

Fair point, I hadn't thought about that. I'm not too bothered leaving them OO luckily.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 17/01/2024 at 15:36, Edwardian said:

I reaise that a lot of people will want to run Accurascale chaldrons with Hornby's Locomotion in due course, but this would not be a particularly close match.

 

Given how Hornby cheaped out on representing L&M goods stock, I frankly don't believe Hornby will come good with complementary rolling stock for Locomotion, even though hitherto I had expected that. 

 

So, if Accurascale could be persuaded to do 1820s S&D stock, rather than stuff that's a generation of more later, that would be welcome.

 

 

Silly boy idea ... would state of the art technology now enable such scenes to be motorised?   "Gravity working" with the dandy cart wouldn't be impossible using the old K's motorised box van concept, but the working horse hauling empties back up the hill would obviously be quite a challenge.

 

What if   ...

 ... if the horse were suspended on stiff wires from the first wagon to represent the reins with its hooves just clear of the ground?

 ... but its legs should move ...

 ... so if one designed some linkages such as are included in this ....

 ... using 3D printing to make the limbs

 ... maybe in a larger scale?

 ... if a mech needs to be concealed in the horse's body, the reins could double as power feed

 

Well beyond me of course, but is it even feasible?  Yes/No/I'll have some of what he's on.

But using 3D printing it should at least be possible to make these railwaymen look less like they were drawn by LS Lowry

[drnick]

On 26/01/2024 at 12:46, Michael Hodgson said:

Silly boy idea ... would state of the art technology now enable such scenes to be motorised?   "Gravity working" with the dandy cart wouldn't be impossible using the old K's motorised box van concept, but the working horse hauling empties back up the hill would obviously be quite a challenge.

 

What if   ...

 ... if the horse were suspended on stiff wires from the first wagon to represent the reins with its hooves just clear of the ground?

 ... but its legs should move ...

 ... so if one designed some linkages such as are included in this ....

 ... using 3D printing to make the limbs

 ... maybe in a larger scale?

 ... if a mech needs to be concealed in the horse's body, the reins could double as power feed

 

Well beyond me of course, but is it even feasible?  Yes/No/I'll have some of what he's on.

But using 3D printing it should at least be possible to make these railwaymen look less like they were drawn by LS Lowry

 

 

I think I'd go for using some kind of magnorail approach, to pull the horse up the hill and then puzzle over a way of uncoupling at the top of the hill. 

There are some really imaginative uses of it out there on the Web and they cope with inclines well...

I've imagined various different dioramas with them but never had the courage to try yet...

https://magnorailuk.com/