Hornby 2022 - Trains on Film

[Compound2632]

17 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

To be fair, Hornby have done a range of LNER locos to cover a pretty comprehensive range of traffic types

 

But not to model any division of the LNER or the subsequent BR regions with any degree of fidelity. For that, one needs a medley of pre-grouping types appropriate to that region - with maybe some transfers in from other divisions. Like the Southern, the LNER didn't spend money replacing old engines that were still up to the job. In the Southern's case, it was spending the money on something else, in the LNER's, it didn't have any. In contrast, one can have a very good stab at modelling the Midland or Western Divisions of the LMS, certainly in BR days, using locomotives from Bachmann and Hornby that complement, not duplicate.

[1andrew1]

17 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Bachmann does/has done some sets, and I think they are the only other British outline manufacturer who can cover this area because it requires the inclusion of track and controller.

You could just buy those in - Airfix and Palitoy did this back in the late 70s.

Bachmann's Thomas the Tank Engine range would make great starter sets if they weren't so pricey.

[1andrew1]

14 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

I believe that you are speaking metaphorically here as apart from administration,  everything else is offsite.      Wharehousing and even distribution seem now to be third party concerns.  Hornby even use a third party shipper to handle its own internal online sales.  Basically,  Hornby ceased being a manufacturer (well apart from a few easy build kits manufactured in the UK) and is predominantly a commissioner of models.  They do input research material on new production but from what I have heard the Chinese manufacturers want more control over that phase of production.  The Chinese "model" is to own both research material, cads, etc. and tooling and then so called "manufacturers" contract them to produce the item.  The Chinese cover costs right up until the goods are ready to ship to the "manufacturer".  

Hornby has its own premises in China/HK where it keeps its tooling when not in use so I think it has far more control than the model you describe. That model s more akin to the former Kader-Palitoy Mainline relationship.

As an aside, Airfix's Easy Build range is now moulded alongside the regular range in India. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by 1andrew1
clarity

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 1andrew1 said:

You could just buy those in - Airfix and Palitoy did this back in the late 70s.

Bachmann's Thomas the Tank Engine range would make great starter sets if they weren't so pricey.

 

More recently Dapol have done some sets bundled with Peco track and the smallest Gaugemaster controller.

 

Some years ago Bachmann Thomas sets were incredibly cheap. Cheap enough that it was worth the postage to ship them over from the US. I paid $43 for a Thomas set in 2006.

[boxbrownie]

If anyone can be bothered to read this, it explains foreign ownership/incorporation of a factory within China.

https://www.hawksford.com/knowledge-hub/china-business-guides/way-for-china-company-registration

 

Should stop guesswork.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

You could just buy those in - Airfix and Palitoy did this back in the late 70s.

Bachmann's Thomas the Tank Engine range would make great starter sets if they weren't so pricey.

They wouldn't be so pricey if it were not for the royalty payments.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, 1andrew1 said:

Hornby has its own premises in China/HK where it keeps its tooling when not in use so I think it has far more control than the model you describe. That is more akin to the Kader-Palitoy Mainline relationship.

As an aside, Airfix's Easy Build range is now moulded alongside the regular range in India. 

But no resemblance at all to the Kader/Bachmann relationship where Kader own factories and Bachmann as individual profit centre companies within their overall control - in other words Kader own everything from initial development of a new model to design, to tooling, to manufacture, to shipping arrangements out of China, to warehousing and distribution in (in the case of Bachmann Europe) their own premises, and control of stock in England including sample testing of all new deliveries.  

 

In contrast Hornby uses numerous factories some of whom in turn subcontract work out to other factories (Hornby tooling has been seen in factories that are not listed as manufacturing for Hornby and it was explained that the factory concerned was 'helping out' their friends nearby who were busy with other work).  And once the goods are despatched to England for retail they don't even see them as their warehousing and distribution, even for direct sales, is handled by contractor.  So there are some huge differences between the ways in which Hornby does things and the way n which Kader/Bachmann Europe does things

 

Hornby officially own the tooling but that is about as far as it goes although they have said they have a storage arrangement because there was concern about the level of control over their tools.  But they are still in Chinese factory terms a commissioner just like, say, for example Dapol or Heljan or Kernow - all of whom also own tooling located at factories in China.  But even Kernow do more than Hornby by keeping their own distribution in house.

 

I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong in the way they organise their business although it is probably better to keep as much as possible under direct control in order to most effectively manage standards and control costs although the latter does depend on the detail of contracts.  And the problems with some W1s does suggest that if you are going to contract work out you do need some very precise specifications of required standards - but that goes for all contracting out and is part of the art of managing it.  In my past direct experience it is simpler, easier to set & control standards, easier to set and control budgets, and much more cost effective, to manage the work when it is under your own direct control than when it is contracted out but I know that other people have had different experiences.

[1andrew1]

The Hornby and Bachmann models are interesting. Bachmann is vertically integrated with its own manufacturing and Hornby is vertically integrated with its own web sales. Bachmann is now selling spares online and I wonder if it will follow its sister company in the USA and sell its full range directly soon.

Edited February 8, 2022 by 1andrew1

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, 1andrew1 said:

I wonder if it will follow its sister company in the USA and sell its full range directly soon.

 

No; they're committed to supporting their retail network as much as possible and have clearly stated such numerous times.

[Mike Harvey]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Bachmann does/has done some sets, and I think they are the only other British outline manufacturer who can cover this area because it requires the inclusion of track and controller.

Gaugemaster, Osborns and maybe others have issued sets by amalgamating their commissioned N gauge items with Kato track and controllers, usually in bespoke packaging.

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/gaugemaster-2000105-scale-1148-n-br-industrial-freight-starter-set-53097-p.asp

 

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/osborns-set-2-27671-p.asp

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Mike Harvey
Added link

[1andrew1]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

They wouldn't be so pricey if it were not for the royalty payments.

Agreed. And it's logical for trainsets to be as cheap as possible to get more people into the hobby.

 

But a Thomas the Tank Engine train set would have brand recognition and parents would feel it as safe a buy as a Hornby set, in the way they probably wouldn't about Bachmann.

[1andrew1]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

More recently Dapol have done some sets bundled with Peco track and the smallest Gaugemaster controller.

 

Some years ago Bachmann Thomas sets were incredibly cheap. Cheap enough that it was worth the postage to ship them over from the US. I paid $43 for a Thomas set in 2006.

Amazing value! Kader have Hornby's dilemma - for the last few years they've been marginally profitable or loss-making so the temptation is to maximise prices at the expense of numbers participating in the hobby.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

Amazing value! Kader have Hornby's dilemma - for the last few years they've been marginally profitable or loss-making so the temptation is to maximise prices at the expense of numbers participating in the hobby.

The "dilemma" is that both firms had long been making considerably more of each item than the market could absorb before they wanted to get their next new releases into the shops. It's not so much a matter of maximising prices for their own sake, rather matching supply more closely to real demand, thereby avoiding the surpluses that require deep discounting to clear. 

 

A tendency had arisen among a significant section of the RTR customer base to hold back from purchasing new models on initial release in anticipation of such discounts. Erring slightly on the side of under-satisfying  demand helps ensure things sell out quickly at or near full RRP. 

 

Lower quantities help ensure the budgeted return is achieved from first runs, and far fewer people now hang fire awaiting discounts, preferring to be certain of obtaining their wants.

 

Higher prices (that stick) simply reflect a reality that enough customers will tolerate them. Relative unaffordability and/or frustration at missing out on items one wants, may dissuade some from taking up or continuing with the hobby but, if those who do remain buy everything on offer, the bottom line is safe.

 

Continuing in cynical mode, I wonder how many of the people who once resolutely refused to pre-order anything, are still maintaining that position?

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

34 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The "dilemma" is that both firms had long been making considerably more of each item than the market could absorb before they wanted to get their next new releases into the shops. It's not so much a matter of maximising prices for their own sake, rather matching supply more closely to real demand, thereby avoiding the surpluses that require deep discounting to clear. 

 

A tendency had arisen among a significant section of the RTR customer base to hold back from purchasing new models on initial release in anticipation of such discounts. Erring slightly on the side of under-satisfying  demand helps ensure things sell out quickly at or near full RRP. 

 

Lower quantities help ensure the budgeted return is achieved from first runs, and far fewer people now hang fire awaiting discounts, preferring to be certain of obtaining their wants.

 

Higher prices (that stick) simply reflect a reality that enough customers will tolerate them. Relative unaffordability and/or frustration at missing out on items one wants, may dissuade some from taking up or continuing with the hobby but, if those who do remain buy everything on offer, the bottom line is safe.

 

Continuing in cynical mode, I wonder how many of the people who once resolutely refused to pre-order anything, are still maintaining that position?

 

John

 

 

 

 

It ignores the factors they cannot control….

 

Higher prices has lowered the barrier of entry to competitors who now see greater opportunity to have a go themselves. 

Theres averaging 20 new loco/unit toolings a year at the moment…

The market has a maximum spend potential, so whilst lower volumes higher prices may feel like the bigger players have control on the market, ultimately the consumer will only spend what they can afford, and with so much variety on offer, it risks being spread thinner, and still resulting in stuff on shelves.

It might also be worth asking those who used to pre-order everything, in their zone of interest, if they are still doing so?

Edited February 8, 2022 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It might also be worth asking those who used to pre-order everything, in their zone of interest, if they are still doing so?

 

 

I am, but the range of new stuff on offer that I want is much more limited at present than it has been in the past.

 

Now that Hornby has more or less worked through their recent obsession with big LNER stuff, I'm hoping to see the odd relevant Southern item in the next lot of announcements.

 

Note to Hornby: new names and numbers on existing Bulleid Pacific combinations are no longer enough to tempt me. That's going to take some variations you haven't yet covered, like a 5250g tender for the rebuilt WC, first-series rebuilt MNs with 5000g tenders, and wide cab air-smoothed WCs with cut-down 4500g tenders.

 

John

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Continuing in cynical mode, I wonder how many of the people who once resolutely refused to pre-order anything, are still maintaining that position?

I do for one, and if I miss out so be it.  Just before Xmas I bought a Hornby made 'Locomotion models' , one of the few remaining Winston Churchill spamcans for £179 down from £229 still not worth the price but decided it was unlikely to drop price any further.  Only stuff I may pre-order is Accurascale products as their prices are more realistic considering likely quality.

 

EDIT: Also mainly to see if there are major probs, again if I miss out so be it.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Guest
spelling

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

It ignores the factors they cannot control….

 

Higher prices has lowered the barrier of entry to competitors who now see greater opportunity to have a go themselves. 

Theres averaging 20 new loco/unit toolings a year at the moment…

The market has a maximum spend potential, so whilst lower volumes higher prices may feel like the bigger players have control on the market, ultimately the consumer will only spend what they can afford, and with so much variety on offer, it risks being spread thinner, and still resulting in stuff on shelves.

It might also be worth asking those who used to pre-order everything, in their zone of interest, if they are still doing so?

 

New Entrants? The more the merrier!

 

Twenty new toolings a year? Maybe, but my personal haul from this year's crop will run to just five, with no multiple purchases; two from Hornby, an Accurascale Manor and a brace of industrials from Rapido and Planet Industrial. The only loco I'm expecting  from Bachmann has been on pre-order for three years!

 

All well inside my maximum spend level with enough left over for a couple of weekends away paid for out of my modelling budget...

 

John

[eldomtom2]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hornby officially own the tooling but that is about as far as it goes although they have said they have a storage arrangement because there was concern about the level of control over their tools.  But they are still in Chinese factory terms a commissioner just like, say, for example Dapol or Heljan or Kernow - all of whom also own tooling located at factories in China.  But even Kernow do more than Hornby by keeping their own distribution in house.

Of course "commissioner" can mean different things depending on the context. Hornby have in the past, and presumably can in the future, withdrawn toolings from one factory and sent them to another.

[Din]

Another obsession here seems to be for the "common man" to be able to cheaply afford this hobby.

 

I have to kind of ask... why? In car terms you'd buy second hand, or wait for the cheaper cars to come about by buying a grotbox or other easy vehicle before aspiring to a more classical/better motor, which quite a few folks can get second (or fifth) hand.

 

I myself own a "modern classic" in the form of a Rover 75, I did not at all pay top dollar for it due to a sympathetic owner who wanted it to go to a good home. (it's certainly being put through its paces and mild admiration since I bought it). It was a car I always liked when I was a child and this happened to fall into my lap.

 

Even on entering this hobby when I was younger, my parents didn't run out buying me a Hornby starter set... but an old Mainline and later Jouef starter set for far cheaper, combined, than a new Hornby starter set of the era!

 

Its also obvious that most people in the hobby are 30+ and thus at the age of being able to have a bit of disposable cash to splash on such a hobby.

 

Is there really a place for ultra-cheap models instead of people buying the equivalent, if not more, second hand?

 

Should we prepare ourselves mentally for such a market likely emerging as seems to be the case?

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

New Entrants? The more the merrier!

 

Change “entrants” for “liveries” and you have Riko / Lima’s philosophy.

Too many cooks spoil the broth 

and 

Too many toolings swamp the market.
if the markets too saturated, someone will be left holding a pile of stock… then the discounting comes, if not a casualty..

 

I suspect the UK economy will start runing out of steam in Q3/2022.. if people run out of cash, the economy wobbles and we all fall down… mass inflation always precipitates a huge fall... if a business anticipates this and hikes it up in advance, it still gives them a pillow for the fall and they land right back where they started, rather than below.

 

I think the s/h market will survive this, there will be an increase in seller and buyer activities. But this may distract money from the new items in the loftier clouds as people stock up on bargains and rare to finds that creep out.

 

Having high quality to lower cost ratio combined with a desirable prototype is the secret sauce imo… make a bum model, over price it, produce an uninspiring class in a troubled economy makes it easy for buyers to get fussy and wobble on by.

 

For a manufacturer its ok having lots of stock, as long as you have lots of cash, run out and well.. £19.99, Riko.. Lima.

 

The hobby will march on,  companies may change, but toolings never dissapear and enthusiasts weather all economies one way or another… its not the end of the world, or the hobby..

 

just natural selection..customers will chose what they buy, and companies will need to adapt to the changing market.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by adb968008

[GWR-fan]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

.........................................................................

 

I think the s/h market will survive this, there will be an increase in seller and buyer activities. But this may distract money from the new items in the loftier clouds as people stock up on bargains and rare to finds that creep out.

.............................................................................

 

 

The intense interest that both Hattons and Rails have shown in acquiring pre-owned collections is indicative of the health of the second hand market,  even given the ridiculously high prices now being charged for some items.  I saw a recent 20% off link to Rails eBay site and was astounded at the prices being asked for the models.  Current secondhand prices have reflected the increased prices for newly released items,  with some items like wagons and coaches almost double the new price when released barely a few years ago.  A year ago I almost switched over to "O" gauge as the price of new "OO" scale items were approaching the price of similar items in the larger gauge.

 

Apart from a recent purchase of a class 18000 turbine and a deposit on a Fell,  I have not paid more than GBP100.00 for a new loco.  (I did pay recently GBP102.00 for a much wanted later release pre-owned Hornby 72XX in GWR livery but that price was reduced when VAT was removed).  I am very astute when it comes to how much I am prepared to pay for a new model,  but limiting how much that is has not prevented me from getting some nice models recently and surprisingly all from local Australian retailers with a "Clan Macdonald", two Hornby class O1 locomotives and six B2 Pecketts. 

 

 I am not attracted to the big expensive recent releases,  preferring instead the Sanda Kan releases from many years ago.  The hobby is only as expensive as you are willing to make it.   Look to the upsurge in interest in You-Tubers who run mostly older or Railroad stock and whose layouts are reminiscent of the layouts one would have seen in Hornby layout plan booklets with track on bare boards.  There is also an upsurge in viewer interest in You-Tubers whose channels repair older stock.  There are of cause the collectors who will buy no matter the cost and those who simply must have the latest release no matter who the manufacturer may be.

[Dunsignalling]

The immediate effect for me is that, once roughly £300 each of outstanding pre-orders from Hornby and Bachmann are fulfilled, that's pretty much it for me with the big boys until 2023.

 

That barely equates to 20% of my typical annual spend not so many years ago.

 

I have ordered two locos (one small, one large) from the Hornby 2022 program, but everything else I anticipate buying this year will come from one or other of the new entrants, with nothing at all from Bachmann unless something of interest emerges in one of their future quarterly announcements.

 

There's no shortage of new stuff to buy, but relatively little has been of real interest to me for three years now. The latest price rises mean I've already stopped buying anything that doesn't fit "the plan" altogether. I've already robbed my model railway "slush fund" to finance a new camera outfit and, instead of acquiring more trains, I am now planning to buy in professionally made baseboards for the new layout rather than making them myself....

 

For the sakes of both Hornby and Bachmann, I really hope I'm not too typical..... 

 

John

Edited February 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Ragtag]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

The immediate effect for me is that, once roughly £300 each of outstanding pre-orders from Hornby and Bachmann are fulfilled, that's pretty much it for me with the big boys until 2023.

 

That barely equates to 20% of my typical annual spend not so many years ago.

 

I have ordered two locos (one small, one large) from the Hornby 2022 program, but everything else I anticipate buying this year will come from one or other of the new entrants, with nothing at all from Bachmann unless something of interest emerges in one of their future quarterly announcements.

 

There's no shortage of new stuff to buy, but relatively little has been of real interest to me for three years now. The latest price rises mean I've already stopped buying anything that doesn't fit "the plan" altogether. I've already robbed my model railway "slush fund" to finance a new camera outfit and, instead of acquiring more trains, I am now planning to buy in professionally made baseboards for the new layout rather than making them myself....

 

For the sakes of both Hornby and Bachmann, I really hope I'm not too typical..... 

 

John

A big factor for me is VAT discounting and reliable international shipping. The relationships both of the big brands have with my retailer of choice rather limits my ability/likelihood to purchase.

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The immediate effect for me is that, once roughly £300 each of outstanding pre-orders from Hornby and Bachmann are fulfilled, that's pretty much it for me with the big boys until 2023.

I have ordered two locos (one small, one large) from the Hornby 2022 program, but everything else I anticipate buying this year will come from one or other of the new entrants, with nothing at all from Bachmann unless something of interest emerges in one of their future quarterly announcements.

 

For the sakes of both Hornby and Bachmann, I really hope I'm not too typical..... 

 

John

 

I don't know the answer to your last question but I have nothing on pre-order from Hornby or Bachmann -but  two from KR Models and one each from Accurascale, Planet Industrials and Rapido, (plus some Chauldron wagons) which will probably be it for this year.   Oddly enough for the first time ever everything I have planned in the way of acquisitions is in OO, no N this year.

 

The back end of this year is when I intend to start exhibition layout 6, which will replace Croft Spa if it is N gauge or NO PLACE if OO.  I thought I'd decided but am now planning both scales with a decision in the Summer sometime...  That means probably no new locos in 2023 (though maybe a Farish 08 with sound if layout 6 is an N-gauge terminus).

 

Les

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Les1952
couldn't see the bit I'm quoting

[newbryford]

4 hours ago, Din said:

Another obsession here seems to be for the "common man" to be able to cheaply afford this hobby.

 

I have to kind of ask... why? In car terms you'd buy second hand, or wait for the cheaper cars to come about by buying a grotbox or other easy vehicle before aspiring to a more classical/better motor, which quite a few folks can get second (or fifth) hand.

 

I myself own a "modern classic" in the form of a Rover 75, I did not at all pay top dollar for it due to a sympathetic owner who wanted it to go to a good home. (it's certainly being put through its paces and mild admiration since I bought it). It was a car I always liked when I was a child and this happened to fall into my lap.

 

 

 

 

Comparing cars against model railways isn't really valid IMO.

 

Cars are not a hobby for the average person, they are usually bought to serve a purpose.

 

I'll bet the vast majority of cars are not bought for a "lifetime's use" and therefore more readily available second (or more) hand as folks move them on after a few years.

 

Whereas model railways are more for life than to be used for a couple of years and then moved on.