Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[zr2498]

11 hours ago, IOW O2 said:

 

I think he is more forgiving than a lot of us might be after talking with Hornby.  All the big boys I conversed with at shows (HBy, Bach, Accu.) with concerns, refused to discuss that their models may have issues, as posted on these forums and YT, they just gave politicians type answers, and dismissed RMweb.  The only one who were really concerned were Cavalex.

I get the impression that Accurascale do not dismiss RMWeb and are very much proactive with feedback.

[Bernard Lamb]

10 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

I get the impression that Accurascale do not dismiss RMWeb and are very much proactive with feedback.

Indeed they are.

I have made several comments about their products and in 100% of cases have had an acknowledgement from them. In most cass the point I made has been acted on. Of course at a public show the staff need to be rather more limited in their response, for fear of being misquoted later.

Bernard

 

 

 

[Buhar]

20 hours ago, IOW O2 said:

Has anyone on here has measured the tender gap yet?

 

It looks pretty big in the photos, so got me thinking about my few tender locos so I measured with a vernier gauge. The largest was my 2006 Rebuilt W/Country at 7.38mm, which side-on in a photo appears smaller than the B5, and doesn't look to bad with a fallplate added, the smallest gap, Bach N class 4.74.

 

Two spamcans, one with same drop-in hook coupling, (as above R/WC), 5.50 and latest with 4 pin plug is 6.73!  Latest are two Accurascale manors at 5.04. With all locos off main layout and put on circular 2nd radius setrack testbed all could be coupled closer if the manufacturers chose to do so without fouling, 3mm closer from the largest, down to 1.5 closer for the manors and N class.

 

Accurascale are going the right way with their design, but it could be better in my opinion as there is only 1mm of stretch on the kinematic bit, unlike coaches which are 5mm and the same on a couple of diesels.

There's going to be a formula for this, the variables being radius (obviously) then rear fixed axle to rear of cab along with front fixed axle (there were a few bogie tenders) to front of tender. Footplate and tender width may impact to fractions of a millimetre. The presence of tender buffers makes a difference too.

 

Obviously a formula will produce results across its range that are impractically small to set up on a loco but deriving figures to a millimetre or maybe half a millimetre may be helpful.

 

Alan 

[Sjcm]

I wonder if the lamps are an example of the gap between what the designers wanted, and what is possible on the manufacturing side. Sticking "changing lamps requires a good degree of modelling abilty" in the instructions for something that is supposed to press fit? What does that even mean? A tacit admission that glue will be required to keep them on?

Edited May 4 by Sjcm

[IOW O2]

2 hours ago, zr2498 said:

I get the impression that Accurascale do not dismiss RMWeb and are very much proactive with feedback.

 

Well that the good thing on here, they do respond. More likely as Bernard below says.

 

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

...........Of course at a public show the staff need to be rather more limited in their response, for fear of being misquoted later.

 

Did not occur to me, I should have took note whom I spoke to, it wasn't Fran or McC or Richard W.  The Bachy. chap said "aah, social media nonsense", and that's a quote.

 

Anyway be interesting to see what the B5 gap actually is at some point.

Edited May 4 by IOW O2
correction

[Sjcm]

I imagine they go by returns rather than social media and unfortunately our hobby is loathe to return models unless they are totally broken. 2 reviewers on here both had running problems and the crank pins falling out but they "fixed" the problems themselves despite not being that happy with the model. I'm guessing phone and car manufacturers would kill for that sort of customer base.😂

[AY Mod]

17 minutes ago, IOW O2 said:

The Bachy. chap said "aah, social media nonsense", and that's a quote.

 

Obviously been reading the comments during their YouTube live stream of quarterly announcements. Comedy gold.

 

[ColinB]

3 minutes ago, Sjcm said:

I imagine they go by returns rather than social media and unfortunately our hobby is loathe to return models unless they are totally broken. 2 reviewers on here both had running problems and the crank pins falling out but they "fixed" the problems themselves despite not being that happy with the model. I'm guessing phone and car manufacturers would kill for that sort of customer base.😂

I not so sure about the car manufacturers, there were several occasions with my old company that quite often all hell only broke loose when an issue got highlighted in the old "Watchdog" program. They do have a ton of warranty figures though.

 

As to the gap between loco and tender, if you look at that new Hornby connector they are limited with what they can do,  the new drawbar mechanism takes up an awful lot of room. With the old system you just shortened the drawbar. Unfortunately, because they need so many connections to the loco for lights, steam etc they cannot use the old system. 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

Unfortunately, because they need so many connections to the loco for lights, steam etc they cannot use the old system. 

 

A classic case of the 'gimmick' resulting in a backwards step in the overall accuracy and utility of a model.

 

CJI.

[Legend]

14 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

 

Why would they just dismiss RMweb? Surely it's in their long-term interest to get to the bottom of any concerns.

 Ostrich syndrome . There’s nothing wrong with our models . They don’t usually like admitting there are issues . 

[jjb1970]

I suspect the manufacturers monitor social media but are selective with engagement for entirely understandable reasons.

[MikeParkin65]

16 hours ago, ColinB said:

I watched "Little Wickets" review and it is pretty fair, the only thing that concerned me was he didn't try it on analogue once he had cleaned the connector. I run DCC all the time and I cannot see how adding DCC is going to fix a connector fault on its own. DCC especially if you add "stay alive" definitely with improve slow speed running but it is not going to fix the connector issue. It is correct that they have used the tender arrangement before but not on a Stanier  tender, they were all on Gresley 8 wheel tenders. So what part have they changed?

Agree. I wondered if he’d fitted the ‘stay alive’ at the same time although I could see it if he had. In my experience Hornby DCC and their sound in particular is very sensitive to power interruptions. Suppose the alternative explanation is that the contacts are coated in something which IPA removes. 

[Dunsignalling]

 

It's beginning to look like I shall only be buying tank locos from Hornby if this is the shape of things to come.....

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

A classic case of the 'gimmick' resulting in a backwards step in the overall accuracy and utility of a model.

 

CJI.

Yes you are right. I highlighted ages ago that if you want to add lights, steam etc to the loco you have to put the decoder in the loco or possibly use a function decoder. The more signals you pass between loco and tender the more issues you will have. The old 4 pin connector works ok but even then you get the case where the loco keeps stopping or the tender pickups don't work because one of the crimped connectors isn't crimped properly. If you are going to use a multiway connector like Hornby used in the new tender system it should be gold plated, that is the only way you get a reliable connection. We used to use ink rubbers on those connections when they became problematic.

[ColinB]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

It's beginning to look like I shall only be buying tank locos from Hornby if this is the shape of things to come.....

You won't need to, the Black 5 is probably the last of the retool designs, except the streamlined B12. Hornby are short of money so they are recycling their old designs, recent releases like the 4p and 8f are designs that are over 20 years old, but are a good cash cow. Well that is what their new management thinks. The Black 5 is part of Simon's legacy. The P2s, A4s and anything with an 8 wheel Gresley tender with have the new tender connection but it only uses 4 wires so is a bit more reliable.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, ColinB said:

You won't need to, the Black 5 is probably the last of the retool designs, except the streamlined B12. Hornby are short of money so they are recycling their old designs, recent releases like the 4p and 8f are designs that are over 20 years old, but are a good cash cow. Well that is what their new management thinks. The Black 5 is part of Simon's legacy. The P2s, A4s and anything with an 8 wheel Gresley tender with have the new tender connection but it only uses 4 wires so is a bit more reliable.

Presumably the connectors on the most recent revision of the air-smoothed WC are the type used on the LNER locos?

[Black 5 Bear]

2 hours ago, ColinB said:

You won't need to, the Black 5 is probably the last of the retool designs, except the streamlined B12. Hornby are short of money so they are recycling their old designs, recent releases like the 4p and 8f are designs that are over 20 years old, but are a good cash cow. Well that is what their new management thinks. The Black 5 is part of Simon's legacy. The P2s, A4s and anything with an 8 wheel Gresley tender with have the new tender connection but it only uses 4 wires so is a bit more reliable.

The new release A4's in HD and main range have the same new "loco to tender" connection.

It may well be that the connectors fitted to the new Black 5's are substandard/defective?

This situation has happened before with Hornby, namely the motor defects in certain locos such as the second batch S15's!

Edited May 4 by Black 5 Bear

[Grovenor]

Pacifics have a lot more room under the cab to fit this huge coupling and still allow reasonably close coupling. Locos without a rear pony truck make it much harder.

Same goes for 8 wheel tenders, you could see in part 1 of Sams review that using the Gresley tender it looked much closer.

Edited May 4 by Grovenor

[Bernard Lamb]

8 hours ago, IOW O2 said:

 

Well that the good thing on here, they do respond. More likely as Bernard below says.

 

 

Did not occur to me, I should have took note whom I spoke to, it wasn't Fran or McC or Richard W.  The Bachy. chap said "aah, social media nonsense", and that's a quote.

 

Anyway be interesting to see what the B5 gap actually is at some point.

Having been involved with a world wide product launch at the NEC, I have some experience of how easy it is to dig yourself and your company, into a big hole. Such things are very tightly controled. Or should be for a company that cares for its PR.

 

As for the model, I will stick with my older versions with Brassmasters bits added.

Bernard

[HExpressD]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

You won't need to, the Black 5 is probably the last of the retool designs, except the streamlined B12. Hornby are short of money so they are recycling their old designs, recent releases like the 4p and 8f are designs that are over 20 years old, but are a good cash cow. Well that is what their new management thinks.

A statement based on facts or imagination?

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, HExpressD said:

A statement based on facts or imagination?

Probably a bit of both. Look at their latest catalogue and their latest accounts, then make your opinion. Retooling a new model costs a lot of money, then there is the tooling costs of new TT120 items.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, ColinB said:

You won't need to, the Black 5 is probably the last of the retool designs, except the streamlined B12. Hornby are short of money so they are recycling their old designs, recent releases like the 4p and 8f are designs that are over 20 years old, but are a good cash cow. Well that is what their new management thinks. The Black 5 is part of Simon's legacy. The P2s, A4s and anything with an 8 wheel Gresley tender with have the new tender connection but it only uses 4 wires so is a bit more reliable.

I'm not entirely sure is we are yet seeing much to indicate the marketing approach of the new regime.  Whatever Lyndon might have said about it lead times in model railways are pretty long and are difficult to shorten especially when you have to ensure that production slots are booked well in advance.

 

The old tooling (with a little re-tooling as it happens) of the 8F is surely no change from the previous regime's approach - as it is desperately over-priced for what it is when measured against the wider market.  The Black 5 similarly has one or two problems but at least, to me at any rate, r the shape and overall appearance is good but the initial launch approach hasn't even been as broadly based as the 2MT.  Is that latter marketing fail down to the new regime or the previous one -t timescales alone give us the answer to that.  Yet more ECML 'big' engines with at least one previous versions already being banged out at a heavily reduced trade price suggests to me thatt the marketing there wasn't particularly sound either - hardly new regime yet again.

 

2024's model railway range from Hornby might be a waypoint but it is hardly a major indicator of a revised marketing approach.  I think the first step of that may come with the way 'Locomotion No.1' is marketed - whoever kicked off that particular design ball.

[Ian Hargrave]

22 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

The new release A4's in HD and main range have the same new "loco to tender" connection.

It may well be that the connectors fitted to the new Black 5's are substandard/defective?

This situation has happened before with Hornby, namely the motor defects in certain locos such as the second batch S15's!

Agree there has to be a batch of rogue connectors. But that is half the problem. The other half is that unsightly gap.Woeful in the light of the claim of it being the ultimate. The eye has been taken off the ball here in the quest for

gimmickry. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

The eye has been taken off the ball here in the quest for

gimmickry. 

 

Spot-on, Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Agree there has to be a batch of rogue connectors. But that is half the problem. The other half is that unsightly gap.Woeful in the light of the claim of it being the ultimate. The eye has been taken off the ball here in the quest for

gimmickry. 

Yes but I suspect it has been something more than that and has been part of trying to be seen to offer more to justify the price - which it might to some people.  Also Hornby simply didn't understand the market and formed the idea that 'add-ons' aka gimmicks were a route to increased sales because that was what various companies were doing with diesel and electric outline models.  What they missed is the fact that it is far more difficult to do that with steam outline and particularly difficult to do it in a way part of the market will accept (e.g. the lamps).

 

So I think that what has actually happened is that what has the basis of being a really good looking Black 5, with lots of designed capacity to be a long life breadwinner due to the multiple variations, has been overdone for misplaced or misunderstood marketing/price point reasons.  The message has surely to be that if you're going to do this sort of thing you have to do it properly and either accept the fact that it would greatly increase costs/price  or you simply don't do  (and definitely don't come up with a half-cock job).