Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Rosie Taylor]

12 hours ago, Citadel said:

Feels like quite a while, most of the recent action has been over on the Pre-Grouping, Modelling & Prototype thread.  Anyway, here's the last of the Slaters MR/MSJS 6 wheel carriages I've been building:

 

 

This is actually the second luggage composite I've built, this time though went for the MSJS livery:

 

 

 

They are lovely kits but quite time consuming as there are a myriad of small parts.  At first glance a bit expensive but the quality of the castings etc. is exceptional.  My only gripe really is the underframe, can't get this as free running as the LNWR 6 wheelers from LRM.  Anyway, here's the group photo under the footbridge at Carlisle Citadel 🙂

 

 

The passengers have been waiting so long for the layout to be finished - their fashion sense is now looking decidedly out of date!

Great to see stock on the layout, even at this early stage!

[Mikkel]

A little over two years since you started this thread, saying you were "relatively new to railway modelling". And here we are with views and stock like this. A proper tour de force!

[Citadel]

@Mikkel, don't forget it was the eels that were one of the things that initially attracted me to RMWeb - made me realise I could convince Mrs Citadel that I was studying Victorian social history rather than playing with trains

 

 

Anyway, here's the latest addition:

 

 

D162 from LRM, my second with another one on the way.  Who can resist those half compartments at each end.  Again built this on a radial underframe but this time the later post 1886 version.  Looking at the London Road Models website this is now an option on the 42' stock, if anyone builds one interested in the feedback.

 

 

I would definitely make a beeline for the end compartment 🙂

 

 

Here they both are under what will eventually be the the south footbridge at Carlisle Citadel

 

 

Edited April 26 by Citadel

[Chrisbr]

Looking very smart, those end half compartments are unusual and as you say, desirable....

[Amaziii]

They look amazing!! Will certainly be buying some from Mr. Redrup to try it out. Can't wait to see the layout progress as well. Keep up the great work!

 

Do you have any plans at the moment to produce other underframe kits or new projects to be launched under London Road Models?

 

Cheers,

Julien.

[Rosie Taylor]

Knowing little about this era and region combination, how long were trains? Each carriage looks great and I'm wondering what they'll look like in a prototypical rake behind a suitable engine.

[Citadel]

19 hours ago, Rosie Taylor said:

Knowing little about this era and region combination, how long were trains? Each carriage looks great and I'm wondering what they'll look like in a prototypical rake behind a suitable engine.

 

I can but dream 🙂.  The iconic WCJS train was the 2pm corridor, a photo of the typical 1895 makeup in the weblink below.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm3318.htm

 

Herein lies one of my (many) dilemmas.  Including locomotive that corresponds to c. 2.5m length in 4mm to the foot.  I've essentially modelled the station internals to scale so OK in this respect, issue is the lead-in and run-out.  My initial intention was to keep things relatively simple outwith the scenic area - maybe a sector plate/cassette type arrangement at each end) but 2.5m is really too long for this approach.  I'll probably end up with a round-roundy with storage sidings / fiddle yard on the opposite side of the room but this will involve bit of delicate negotiation with Mrs. C as area currently earmarked for other purposes.

 

On 26/04/2024 at 22:10, Amaziii said:

Do you have any plans at the moment to produce other underframe kits or new projects to be launched under London Road Models?

 

I didn't really set out to do it this way.  I'd built a fair few 42' coaches from LRM kits and John was very helpful when I was starting modelling again through lockdown.  Given that I'd designed the radial underframe with the same mounting points etc. made sense to offer the artwork to him as a mechanism to hopefully make it available to other modellers.  Very conscious that there is plenty of scope for diners, sleeping carriages and TPO's and they certainly provide interesting prototypes, things do move at a glacial pace in this respect though as so many other distractions.  

[Schooner]

Applying the 4mm modeller's thumb-rule (knock 20% off 'scale' lengths) would give a 6' train (plenty long enough to look the part); but can you realise these gains through the station approach if that's already to scale? At the very least it gives a little scenic breathing space at either end, which might be handy. What would that cost in terms of lost stock from a rake?

 

Side note, but I remain in absolute awe of the quality in build and finish of all your coaching stock. Sublime and terrifying in equal measure :)

Edited April 29 by Schooner

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike,not sure if this helps but as you know I am modelling the 2pm corridor and I have reduced it to 7 coaches. As you say it's the lead in and out that needs a bit of space in front of and behind the train.

John 

[Asterix2012]

4 hours ago, Citadel said:

 

I can but dream 🙂.  The iconic WCJS train was the 2pm corridor, a photo of the typical 1895 makeup in the weblink below.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm3318.htm

 

Herein lies one of my (many) dilemmas.  Including locomotive that corresponds to c. 2.5m length in 4mm to the foot.  I've essentially modelled the station internals to scale so OK in this respect, issue is the lead-in and run-out.  My initial intention was to keep things relatively simple outwith the scenic area - maybe a sector plate/cassette type arrangement at each end) but 2.5m is really too long for this approach.  I'll probably end up with a round-roundy with storage sidings / fiddle yard on the opposite side of the room but this will involve bit of delicate negotiation with Mrs. C as area currently earmarked for other purposes.

 

 

I didn't really set out to do it this way.  I'd built a fair few 42' coaches from LRM kits and John was very helpful when I was starting modelling again through lockdown.  Given that I'd designed the radial underframe with the same mounting points etc. made sense to offer the artwork to him as a mechanism to hopefully make it available to other modellers.  Very conscious that there is plenty of scope for diners, sleeping carriages and TPO's and they certainly provide interesting prototypes, things do move at a glacial pace in this respect though as so many other distractions.  

How are you getting on with the 12 wheeler clerestory?

 

 That’s maybe something for LRM.

 

Any progress on the DX goods I saw you had got on an earlier post?

[Citadel]

On 29/04/2024 at 17:07, Coal Tank said:

Hi Mike,not sure if this helps but as you know I am modelling the 2pm corridor and I have reduced it to 7 coaches. As you say it's the lead in and out that needs a bit of space in front of and behind the train.

John 

 

Watching with interest - look forward to updates 🙂.  Giving Worsley Works a ring is on my to-do list.  What do you use for bogies etc., I'm assuming the etches for the dining cars are for the bodies only.

 

With this in mind and coupled with @Asterix2012's prompt above thought I'd have get the MR 12 wheel clerestory out of the deeper recesses of my cupboard and crack on with it.  The body has moved on a bit and is now painted - it's the underframe that needs the work:

 

 

How to get those slab sided bogie frames to look like the drawing below....

 

 

Well in my case after a lot of faffing around with bits of plasticard.  The coil springs were made with some whittled down sprue from the Slaters kits wound with styrene swarf generated by the Olfa cutter.  There's an extra wind to go onto the one below then will cut into small sections (I sometimes worry about my sanity when doing jobs like this).  

 

 

Anyway, one down and one to go - wish me luck....

[Chas Levin]

Who cares about sanity with results like these? 🤪 Top notch stuff Sir...

[Asterix2012]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Who cares about sanity with results like these? 🤪 Top notch stuff Sir...

If this was food you would be on Masterchef.

[Citadel]

6 wheel bogies completed.  Axles sprung individually with guitar wire and central one has additional side play via 2mm brass tube running on 1mm pinpoint axle.  The latter refinement not really necessary but just wanted to give it a go:

 

 

Talking about things that are unnecessary in a fit of madness included the luggage racks in the etch.  You will just about be able to see them through the windows...

 

 

Here's the current state of play, certainly has a lot of character and must have had real presence when introduced in the mid 1870's

 

 

Roof next, just taken some delivery of some 0.3mm brass sheet.  Time to crack open the GW Models 10" Mini Roller that has been languishing in a box since Christmas.

[Coal Tank]

That coach looks wonderful.

I was wondering whether the bogies could be adapted to fit the LNWR 12 wheelers 

John 

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Coal Tank said:

I was wondering whether the bogies could be adapted to fit the LNWR 12 wheelers 

 

The bogies under Clayton's earliest bogie carriages, such as this, were of the 'American' sort, with beam compensation, and timber frames. They were based on the Pullman bogies, although Clayton rather quickly moved away from the very short wheelbase of the earliest of those. By around1880 Clayton changed to iron-framed bogies with a bearing spring to each axlebox - these looked rather different. The LNWR 12-wheelers, along with bogie 8-wheelers, had bogies of generally similar iron or steel frame construction, though they differed in the arrangement of the bolster springing, and other details. 

[Coal Tank]

Hi Compound ,  the bogies for the LNWR coaches isn't available as far as I know. So I was just thinking that maybe they could be cut about a bit and put on the LNWR coaches. 

[Brassey]

25 minutes ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Compound ,  the bogies for the LNWR coaches isn't available as far as I know. So I was just thinking that maybe they could be cut about a bit and put on the LNWR coaches. 

Have you got any 12 wheelers to build?Did they not come with bogies? Peter 

[Coal Tank]

2 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Have you got any 12 wheelers to build?Did they not come with bogies? Peter 

Hi Peter ,no I got the etches from Worsley Works. You only get the sides and ends. This is for the 2pm corridor.

John 

[Brassey]

5 minutes ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Peter ,no I got the etches from Worsley Works. You only get the sides and ends. This is for the 2pm corridor.

John 

Ok John. I forgot about those. I think the 247 Developments/Modellers World kits came with bogies. I’m told by someone who should know that all 6 wheel bogies had the same wheelbase. Mallard did a GWR 6 w bogie. I think I have one so I’ll check. The bad news is that the tools for the BB 6w sprung bogies are AWOL so they won’t be forthcoming any time soon. 

[Coal Tank]

7 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Ok John. I forgot about those. I think the 247 Developments/Modellers World kits came with bogies. I’m told by someone who should know that all 6 wheel bogies had the same wheelbase. Mallard did a GWR 6 w bogie. I think I have one so I’ll check. The bad news is that the tools for the BB 6w sprung bogies are AWOL so they won’t be forthcoming any time soon. 

Yes if the wheelbase is the same then the sides could be altered. If Mike is able to do them as a separate etch . 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Compound ,  the bogies for the LNWR coaches isn't available as far as I know. So I was just thinking that maybe they could be cut about a bit and put on the LNWR coaches. 

 

Sooner or later Mike will want a 12-wheeler and the lack of bogies will be sorted. 

[Brassey]

14 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Yes if the wheelbase is the same then the sides could be altered. 

John here is the GWR 6 wheel bogie which is 5'9" + 5'9".  According to Jenkinson the LNWR Dining Car bogies were 11' 6" wheelbase so a match.

 

 

I have asked Mark Seward who now has the Mallard range if he can produce these.  IIRC Masokits also produced a sprung bogie.  Peter

[Brassey]

15 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Peter ,no I got the etches from Worsley Works. You only get the sides and ends. This is for the 2pm corridor.

John 

John,

 

The 2pm West Coast Corridor Dining Car Train started in 1893 and the formation in Late Victorian times differed from that in Edwardian 1909 when 65' 6" carriages had displaced some of the 42' and 50' stock.  All this according to Millard.  In addition to Dining Saloons, 42' D68 and D54 still featured in all periods and are available from Stevensons Carriages. 

 

Anyone interested, the formations are on page 122 of A Register of West Coast Joint Stock.

 

John, remind me what is your period.  I model the North to West route which featured an LNWR Dining Car train that ran daily between Liverpool and Bristol and another in the reverse direction.

 

Peter

[Jol Wilkinson]

58 minutes ago, Brassey said:

John here is the GWR 6 wheel bogie which is 5'9" + 5'9".  According to Jenkinson the LNWR Dining Car bogies were 11' 6" wheelbase so a match.

 

 

I have asked Mark Seward who now has the Mallard range if he can produce these.  IIRC Masokits also produced a sprung bogie.  Peter

Mike Clark (Masokits) produces an etched 4 wheel sprung bogie kit and a six wheel conversion for it. They provide different wheelbase options. IIRC there were 10' 6" and 11' 6" wheelbase LNWR six wheel bogies, the longer ones being used on the 65' 6" carriages.

 

The Modellers World kits had an etched (but not sprung or compensated) bogie frame with cast w/m side frames. I built my D10 conversion from the D9 kit, using the Masokits sprung bogie with inside bearings, although the later version has outside pinpoint bearings.

 

Trevor Charlton used to do a wide range of etched zinc sides and ends. My D54 and D68 were built from those. I am less keen on the Stevenson Carriage kits (formerly from Brain Badger AFAIK) as they tend to be rather heavy and in a couple of cases will need a lot of work (which I keep putting off on the one I have).