Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Schooner]

5 hours ago, Citadel said:

Looking through the various threads do sense that lining is a bit of a barrier to people expressing the marvellous Edwardian/Victorian liveries and do feel the technique above is a bit more accessible.

Too true, but the barrier to entry drops a little lower every time someone puts the effort into clear and informative demonstrations like your post above.

 

Still too terrifying for me to contemplate, but a step from 'definitely magic' towards 'may be manageable' has been taken. Ta :)

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, Citadel said:

 As mentioned before the ruling pen is the true king and those that yield it are the lining royalty.  I just find it all a bit daunting but definitely a Rubicon I need to cross at some point.  Followed @Chas Levin’s journey with interest which shows what you can achieve with dedication and perseverance. 

I was just as daunted as you Mike before I started, but I learnt from playing difficult pieces of music in my youth that practice enables the most astonishing transformations, in my case from pretty poor and very unpredictable efforts to quite good looking and - very usefully - fairly consistent and repeatable ones.

 

I just spent hours and hours practising, filling up pieces of suitably surfaced card with rows and rows of lines, then spraying up scrap pieces of  brass sheet and filling those up too: you'll be amazed at how your ability with the ruling pen changes, just from simple repetition.

 

It does have to be careful, thinking work of course: you have to be aware of what causes poor lines as you try holding the pen slightly differently, move it slower or faster and so forth. 
 

I'd also recommend Ian Rathbone's 'Painting & Lining' book, enormously useful, not just for lining but also painting generally (no connection, just a pleased reader!).

 

Having said all that though Mike, your lining looks superb and if you said you'd done it with a lining pen it would be just as impressive: could anyone even tell the difference, without whipping out a magnifying glass?

Edited April 8, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jol Wilkinson]

My LNWR carriage lining has always been done with a bow pen and Rotring pens. That is because I never cottoned on to the idea of using mixed white and yellow inks to increase the opacity that yellow alone lacks, so did the yellow with Humbrol enamel and the black usually with the Rotring. Latterly I had started to use the bowpen for the straight sections with PPP LNWR coach lake enamel and a tubular pen for the corner infills.

 

The result Mike gets are really great and the tools probably more readily available. You need to have a good bowpen, Kern being highly regarded but only available S/H. Besides a collection of Kerns I also have an Ecobra and a Haff, which is what Ian Rathbone uses in his video.  Ian shows how to "tune" a bowpen which I have done with a couple of cheap ones but without much success. AFAIK none of these high quality bowpens are still manufactured, but are available S/H.

 

As Chas says practising helps considerably. I use some black plasticard as the surface is more like the paint finish I get with airbrush applied cellulose paint.

[T0ny]

"I've followed @Jol Wilkinson's suggestion and used brass on a couple of recent builds and it's a huge relief!! It's more work - I don't have suitable bending bars so I use a variety of household objects of smaller diameters and a variety of pads and soft surfaces - but you know it won't change shape later and the best thing is that if it's a brass body, you can solder the roof in place from the inside, which also adds to the body rigidity considerably..."

 

I'm following this wonderful blog/article and am in awe of the standard of work. Makes me realise how poor my efforts are.

However have you thought about annealing the brass before forming it? It should make the curve easier to make and remove the springiness.

Tony

[Citadel]

On 08/04/2023 at 14:45, Chas Levin said:

I was just as daunted as you Mike before I started, but I learnt from playing difficult pieces of music in my youth that practice enables the most astonishing transformations, in my case from pretty poor and very unpredictable efforts to quite good looking and - very usefully - fairly consistent and repeatable ones.

 

I just spent hours and hours practising, filling up pieces of suitably surfaced card with rows and rows of lines, then spraying up scrap pieces of  brass sheet and filling those up too: you'll be amazed at how your ability with the ruling pen changes, just from simple repetition.

 

It does have to be careful, thinking work of course: you have to be aware of what causes poor lines as you try holding the pen slightly differently, move it slower or faster and so forth. 
 

I'd also recommend Ian Rathbone's 'Painting & Lining' book, enormously useful, not just for lining but also painting generally (no connection, just a pleased reader!).

 

Having said all that though Mike, your lining looks superb and if you said you'd done it with a lining pen it would be just as impressive: could anyone even tell the difference, without whipping out a magnifying glass

What a great analogy, bear in mind I’m someone who’s owned a guitar for the last 30 years and still hasn’t learned how to play it properly!

 

Think the key here is current technique adequate for my needs at present but you can definitely see the better opacity and crisper edges from a well handled ruling pen.  Couple this with greater flexibility re: colour and width of line, definitely something I intend to learn.

 

But here lies this issue:

 

On 08/04/2023 at 18:03, Jol Wilkinson said:

You need to have a good bowpen, Kern being highly regarded but only available S/H. Besides a collection of Kerns I also have an Ecobra and a Haff, which is what Ian Rathbone uses in his video.  Ian shows how to "tune" a bowpen which I have done with a couple of cheap ones but without much success. AFAIK none of these high quality bowpens are still manufactured, but are available S/H.

It feels a bit like a Harry Potter book trying to find the wizarding shop to find a wand.  I go on eBay and can see plenty of Kern pens and drawing sets but haven’t really a clue as to what constitutes a good one.  Is there a foolproof way to source one of acceptable quality?  Equally if anyone has one they would like to sell then PM me.

 

Similar question re: the brass roofs really.  I do want to step up my game in this respect.  The MR carriages from Wizard came with these, only 25’ so baby steps in this respect.  Annealing a good idea but any recommendations re: a good set of rolling bars for a 54’ carriage in 4mm scale?

 

Anyway, but of a modelling hiatus, off to Vietnam for three weeks 🙂

Edited April 13, 2023 by Citadel

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

I have sent you a PM about where to get a wand.

 

For rolling coach roofs a George Watts 10" roller is the only one I know of that will do longer roofs. The 6" one is okay for six wheel coaches and vans but nothing bigger.

 

Bon vacances!

 

Jol

[Chas Levin]

Actually, Haff are still very much in business. The 135 (Ian Rathbone's favourite) is no longer made but they did have others in 2021 because I bought a couple at that point, but looking on their site this morning I must admit there don't seem to be any in their current range: https://www.haff.de/ .

They're in Germany but they were very helpful with UK orders - if you want to contact them please PM me and I'll forward you the email contacts, rather than post the email addresses on here.

[Winander]

There are also Ecobra pens available new, but all kinds of ruling pens come up on Ebay regularly and they are not the expensive. If you get a set of drawing instruments, there are often at least two in the set.

[T0ny]

There are a lot of ruling pens advertised on Amazon, Etsy and Ebay, probably other places as well. I can't vouch for the quality but there is a selection available.

[Citadel]

Many thanks for the tips re: lining pens, will definitely follow up on this.  3 weeks travelling around Vietnam was an amazing experience but now back to the workbench....

 

 

At least Mr & Mrs Hibbert won't have to spend a penny before travelling in a carriage so lavishly equipped with lavatories.  The interiors are time consuming though, do think a bit of a rethink is required - very tempted by the sunlit uplands of 3D printing - maybe I should take the plunge...

 

 

I do like these 42' arc roof carriages.  But afraid disaster struck....  Upthread there is quite a lot of discussion around roofs and agonising on my part around the switch from styrene to brass.  The carriage above has tipped the balance - it's removable brass roofs in future.  Currently use cyano to attach the styrene and it's a real palaver applying sufficient glue and getting everything positioned correctly.  In the rush got a bit disoriented and stuck the roof on the wrong way round - Aaaaargh....

 

 

Consequence is some fairly significant alignment issues with the roof vents.  After taking a couple of deep breaths realised that trying to remedy the situation really requires a new roof - will get round to it at some point...  in the meantime there are far too many other distractions.

 

Firstly the 25' MR NPCS I started before I went away - here's the Milk Van:

 

 

And the Brake:

 

 

But what's got me really excited is that the Maryport & Carlisle carriage etches were waiting for me when I returned.  Firstly the D9 Composite - really can't get enough of those round topped windows and panelling

 

 

Then the D10 brake / D11 All Third

 

 

The underframe for the D10/D11 is on the MR 54' etch.  The sprung W-irons to allow conversion of the MR 25' carriages to guitar wire springing - don't really get on with the rocking arrangement on the under frames supplied with the kits.

 

Anyway - teaking ahoy :)

Edited May 13, 2023 by Citadel

[WFPettigrew]

Looking forward with quite a bit of anticipation to seeing how these come out!  Sadly I cannot really justify any M&C on my plans (pre-war, and wrong side of Barrow) but those etches look mouthwatering!

[Compound2632]

@Citadel, your work was being spoken of in the warmest terms on the London Road Models stand at ExpoEM this morning.

[Coal Tank]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Citadel, your work was being spoken of in the warmest terms on the London Road Models stand at ExpoEM this morning.

Im not suprised his work is stunning 

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Citadel said:

...very tempted by the sunlit uplands of 3D printing...

 

A word of caution there Mike: once you reach the 3D printed sunlit uplands, either keep them covered, or paint them straight away, or they may become over-cured and brittle... 😁

 

Seriously though, lovely work, as others have said - and commiserations about the disoriented roof; if it's any consolation, as a non-LNWR expert, that coach looks just as superb to me as the others you've done recently!

[Citadel]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Citadel, your work was being spoken of in the warmest terms on the London Road Models stand at ExpoEM this morning.

 

Many thanks for the kind words, I'm definitely blushing...  You just try to keep getting better and the advice / inspiration I get from other contributors to RMWeb is great motivation.

 

To be honest feeling a bit guilty as had promised John the etches for the radial underframe, just got a bit bogged down with the instructions (and to some extent a bit of a crisis of confidence - it's OK for me but it's a different kettle of fish when one of John's valued customers is paying for the kit).  The comment above has definitely given me the impetus to press on here.

 

The other favour I said I'd do is send him an Illustrator file for the 42' Dining Car body etch.  A recent OS update has just about finished off my ageing iMac so just ordered a new computer - hopefully will now get this finished off as well:

 

 

 

Carlisle Citadel must have been all about Diners and Sleeping Carriages.  Not sure the 42' version would have made it this far North but the 45' pair with the end verandahs is definitely on the to-do list as well.

 

13 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

A word of caution there Mike: once you reach the 3D printed sunlit uplands, either keep them covered, or paint them straight away, or they may become over-cured and brittle... 😁

 

Around the 3D printing very conscious of the pros/cons (the sunlit uplands comment was a bit tongue in cheek, maybe initially it will be the pit of despair).  There has been discussion elsewhere about whether the best approach is to mix and match materials where each plays to it's strength.  I'm now very wedded to etched brass and really enjoy the build process, was thinking more about axleboxes, seats, oil lamps etc.  Also if I do move on to slightly more ambitious carriage profiles was wondering about the insteps doors, end verandahs etc.  Oh and seats of course.... 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Carlisle Citadel must have been all about Diners and Sleeping Carriages.  Not sure the 42' version would have made it this far North but the 45' pair with the end verandahs is definitely on the to-do list as well.

 

Interesting reading A Register of WCJS on the subject of 19th century WCJS dining and sleeping saloons.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Citadel said:

To be honest feeling a bit guilty as had promised John the etches for the radial underframe, just got a bit bogged down with the instructions (and to some extent a bit of a crisis of confidence - it's OK for me but it's a different kettle of fish when one of John's valued customers is paying for the kit).  The comment above has definitely given me the impetus to press on here.

 

It was the radial underframe that was being praised in particular.

[Citadel]

Cruel close-up alert....

 

 

I was very excited that the Wizard etches included the grab / door handles but when I fitted to the parcels van really felt I needed to try and do better.  Maybe I've been reading too many or @airnimal's posts and marvelling at his wagon door latches.  Right is the Wizard one (not fixed in place), left is my attempt with 0.5mm brass wire.

 

Also discovered the joys of annealing the wire prior to bending to shape - the creme-brulee kitchen flamethrower gun thing certainly came handy (think I'm going to sneak it out of the kitchen and into the workshop and see whether Mrs Citadel notices).  After bending to shape filed the front face to create a flat and make it look less like wire.

 

Right, now need to make a jig and make the other seven 😐

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

That lining is quite frankly exquisite 

John 

[Chas Levin]

I'd agree Mike, left-hand home-made looks better than commercial one (no disrespect to the company concerned!). And I'd also agree with John that the lining is absolutely superb!

[TangoOscarMike]

On 19/05/2023 at 21:26, Citadel said:

Cruel close-up alert....

 

Nope! Unless you're talking about the right-hand hardware, but even then "cruel" is a too harsh.

[T0ny]

Hi there everyone. It is good to see the progress being made with these excellent models.

Since there are several M&CR knowledgeable people on here, does anyone know the footplate width of M&CR  0-4-0 dock shunter's Numbers 2 or 3? I am endeavouring to build a model from photographs but cannot find a suitable one to scale the width. I am basing it on a width of 7' 3" since I have no other dimensions to go on.

Thanks in advance.

Tony

Edited June 8, 2023 by T0ny
added words

[CKPR]

The M&C 0-4-0Ts were a Neilson design and had a local cousin in the form of 'Dandie Dimont'  of the Brampton Rly. There's a drawing of the latter in the book 'Lord Carlisles Railways' and I'll have a look to see if it's any use.

[CKPR]

Alas, no front elevation but it seems to indicate that there might be more information in The Mitchell Library in Glasgow. There's also the LMS weight diagrams for the M&CR engines that remained after 1923 but these don't show the front elevation as I've found to my cost. These used to be available from the Cumbrian Railways Association.

[apl31]

The weight diagrams can sometimes state the footplate width in the information below drawing.  Its a little more information to help work out other dimensions