W&U Tramcar

[Dungrange]

18 hours ago, Pint of Adnams said:

Photograph 42 in the Middleton Press book is of a train described as a mixed tram comprising a GN horsebox and an NE horsebox followed by the brake and two 4-wheel tram cars hauled by Y6 7133 in the mid-1920s. Strictly speaking the horseboxes and sundry vans are NPCS rather than goods.

 

..and by the Working Timetable definition, that would be classed as a Passenger Train: comprising only two non passenger vehicles but still being fully fitted passenger rated stock.  It's evidence of unfitted goods stock tagged on to the rear that I'd like to find evidence of.

 

16 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

I think it made commercial sense for Rapido to make use of the mouldings created for the Titfield model to produce various other liveries, but a round of applause to them bothering to model the other tramcar! Personally, in my miniature world, I can ignore the bar being at the wrong end of the coach etc, and simply enjoy them for the gems they are*

 

I agree it makes sense for Rapido to have made non-Titfield versions.  Why did they chose to make the other bogie tramcar?  They could have made one of the more numerous four wheel versions instead.  🙂  I guess the problem with that is that it would have required a completely new model tooling (body and chassis), whereas the other bogie tramcar, whilst to a different diagram and therefore requiring a different body tooling, probably had enough similar components across the chassis to mean that they felt the incremental increase in sales justified the additional cost of tooling both versions.  I'm fairly sure that the majority of those buying one coach will have bought the other and the fact that two coaches are available probably increases sales anyway, as some people may not have bought any if only one were produced, but have bought two since they can now form a train.  Then during the research stage it was probably as easy to research both as to just research one, especially when the preserved version is apparently not the one used in the film.

 

I can certainly ignore the bar being at the wrong end, because my four being the pre-grouping GER versions wont have a bar at all.  I'm looking forward to seeing these in the flesh.

[RapidoCorbs]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

 

I agree it makes sense for Rapido to have made non-Titfield versions.  Why did they chose to make the other bogie tramcar?  They could have made one of the more numerous four wheel versions instead.  🙂  I guess the problem with that is that it would have required a completely new model tooling (body and chassis), whereas the other bogie tramcar, whilst to a different diagram and therefore requiring a different body tooling, probably had enough similar components across the chassis to mean that they felt the incremental increase in sales justified the additional cost of tooling both versions.  I'm fairly sure that the majority of those buying one coach will have bought the other and the fact that two coaches are available probably increases sales anyway, as some people may not have bought any if only one were produced, but have bought two since they can now form a train.  Then during the research stage it was probably as easy to research both as to just research one, especially when the preserved version is apparently not the one used in the film.

It also meant we could do the loco + 2 coaches in the tram packs.
To get the body variations on the bogie carriages involves changing mould slides rather than complete new designs and moulds. Hope that gives some insight!

[Fair Oak Junction]

Maybe Rapido could be convinced to make the W&U 4-wheelers in the future, to help make modelling one of the most interesting lines in the UK easier 😉

[Pint of Adnams]

On 06/11/2023 at 09:18, PhilJ W said:

It seems strange that two different vehicles should both carry the same running number. It would probably be easier to source 12mm wheels anyway.

 

Just a 'feature' of the GE numbering system, in that a direct replacement for a vehicle to be scrapped was given the same asset number (for in accounting terms that it what it was). It happened with locomotives too.

[Dungrange]

1 minute ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Maybe Rapido could be convinced to make the W&U 4-wheelers in the future, to help make modelling one of the most interesting lines in the UK easier 😉

 

I never actually intended building a model of the W&U Tramway, but having a couple of Rapido's GER Tram packs on order and having bought or pre-ordered some of their other pre-grouping era wagons to go with it, I'd love that to be the case.  Of course the brake coach, no 16, is the most pressing item of stock required to complement the train packs.  Is there enough demand for Rapido to take the risk?  All I note is that all of Hatton's Genesis coaches in GER Stratford Brown have sold out on pre-order, so there is clearly demand for more GER stock.  However, if I were Rapido, I'd be testing the GER market by producing either a Diagram 17 Open wagon or a Diagram 56 Brake van first.    If these sell well, then there's perhaps less risk in considering other GER prototypes.

[MarkSG]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

However, if I were Rapido, I'd be testing the GER market by producing either a Diagram 17 Open wagon or a Diagram 56 Brake van first.  

 

Yes, very much so. The brake van in particular would be a welcome addition to any eastern-themed layout. Ex-GER brake vans were quite widely dispersed across the network in LNER days, and many of them lasted into BR service. So they meet two of the typical requirements of a model manufacturer: widespread geographical use (meaning that you don't have to be a GER modeller to want one), and lengthy service (meaning you can make them in multiple liveries across different eras). 

 

Sounds like a no-brainer to me 🙂

[Dungrange]

9 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

The brake van in particular would be a welcome addition to any eastern-themed layout. Ex-GER brake vans were quite widely dispersed across the network in LNER days, and many of them lasted into BR service. So they meet two of the typical requirements of a model manufacturer: widespread geographical use (meaning that you don't have to be a GER modeller to want one), and lengthy service (meaning you can make them in multiple liveries across different eras).

 

The Diagram 56 Brake van is also a model I can't find a kit for and it appears that when the usual passenger brake coach No16 wasn't available (eg for maintenance reasons) that an ordinary goods brake van was used with the passenger tram, so it could be attached to these new W&U tramcars, even although I've yet to see photographic evidence of this.  It's also a model that I'd want to buy several of.

 

Yes, I'd also love some more specific W&U stock like the four wheel tramcars and models of the various diagrams of Sundry Van, but I think Rapido should pick the low hanging fruit first.

[PhilJ W]

29 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

The Diagram 56 Brake van is also a model I can't find a kit for and it appears that when the usual passenger brake coach No16 wasn't available (eg for maintenance reasons) that an ordinary goods brake van was used with the passenger tram, so it could be attached to these new W&U tramcars, even although I've yet to see photographic evidence of this.  It's also a model that I'd want to buy several of.

 

Yes, I'd also love some more specific W&U stock like the four wheel tramcars and models of the various diagrams of Sundry Van, but I think Rapido should pick the low hanging fruit first.

The W&U four wheelers are a none starter, they were all scrapped when W&U passenger services ceased. However the sundries vans (such as number 16) could be modelled. There were four or five diagrams all of the same basic dimensions with the main variations being things like louvres. They also lasted for a long time in service, a couple ending their lives as tool vans c. 1970.

[Dungrange]

8 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The W&U four wheelers are a none starter, they were all scrapped when W&U passenger services ceased.

 

I agreed that they may not be viable for Rapido, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like (and would definitely buy) one (or more).  However, according to Peter Paye's book on The Wisbech and Upwell Tramway, four of the six four wheelers (the ones to Diagram 601) were also transferred to the Tollesbury Light Railway in 1928 for further use.  It was only the two four wheel tramcars to Diagram 600 that were scrapped when the W&U passenger services ceased.  As such, a Diagram 601 four wheeler could be a companion for those modelling the Tollesbury Light Railway in LNER days.  Unfortunately three of these were withdrawn from service on 16 May 1936, which means only one of the four wheelers survived into BR ownership and it was withdrawn on 20th March 1948, so wouldn't have carried a BR livery.  It could of course be produced in a fictional BR livery just like these tramcars.

 

8 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

However the sundries vans (such as number 16) could be modelled. There were four or five diagrams all of the same basic dimensions with the main variations being things like louvres. They also lasted for a long time in service, a couple ending their lives as tool vans c. 1970.

 

I don't think no 16 was ever classed as a Sundry Van - it was a four wheel passenger brake van to Diagram 611 (which I think was unique).  Following withdrawal from service on the W&U, it apparently served as a coal office at Dovercourt until 1963, so although the body was 'long lived', I suspect there isn't a big enough market to justify the tooling (unless Rapido have sold lots of GER Train packs).

 

As for the sundry vans, if you pick the 22' long ones introduced between 1888 and 1899, there were a total of 96 vans to numerous diagrams, but with minor differences between them.  I understood that these were all withdrawn from traffic in the 1930s bar a few that entered departmental stock, but I hadn't realised that some of these lasted as long as c1970.  By that time they must have been nearing 80 years old.  I was only aware of the three Diagram 34 vans that were converted to fruit traffic office vans in 1937, which survived until 1950.  If Rapido could do these, that would be great. Two GER liveries (Stratford Brown & Crimson Lake), two LNER liveries (in service and departmental) and surviving into BR ownership they sound like an ideal subject for Rapido.

 

... but I still think they should start with a Diagram 17 Open and a Diagram 56 Brake van. If I say it often enough, it might come true. 🙂

[Obadiah]

I was told in the 1960's by generally reliable person, who had worked at Stratford Works in the 1950's, that the ultimate fate of the W&U Tramcar and the LTSR coach apparently hinged around an unfortunate incident at Temple Mills whilst being moved, and involved the hump and the retarders, leading the the vehicles being damaged beyond reasonable repair. I have wondered since if either, or both coaches had Maunsell wheelsets, which might account for them being damaged on the retarders.

[PaulG]

3 hours ago, Obadiah said:

I was told in the 1960's by generally reliable person, who had worked at Stratford Works in the 1950's, that the ultimate fate of the W&U Tramcar and the LTSR coach apparently hinged around an unfortunate incident at Temple Mills whilst being moved, and involved the hump and the retarders, leading the the vehicles being damaged beyond reasonable repair. I have wondered since if either, or both coaches had Maunsell wheelsets, which might account for them being damaged on the retarders.

 

This appeared on GERS Forum in 2012:

 

"I always understood the story to be that the coaches in question were on the scrap line temporarily pending storage at Preston Park. They were clearly marked on one side  'Preserved - do not scrap'.

 

Unfortunately, employees were instructed to fire the coaches on the scrap line, but approached them
from the wrong side and never saw the sign on the coaches, and they, with others were torched."

 

Paul

 

Paul

Edited November 10, 2023 by PaulG

[PhilJ W]

45 minutes ago, PaulG said:

 

This appeared on GERS Forum in 2012:

 

"I always understood the story to be that the coaches in question were on the scrap line temporarily pending storage at Preston Park. They were clearly marked on one side  'Preserved - do not scrap'.

 

Unfortunately, employees were instructed to fire the coaches on the scrap line, but approached them
from the wrong side and never saw the sign on the coaches, and they, with others were torched."

 

Paul

 

Paul

That is the story that I was told as well. As a matter of interest the LT&S coach had been sold off by the LMS to the Corringham Light Railway in the 1930's and was recovered from the scrapheap in the early 50's.

[Butler Henderson]

12 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Opened my Titfield coach this morning. Another "knocked out the park" level model - well done!

 

One query - the lifting plates for accessing the next coach - just checking both ends should lift? One is flat whilst the other lifts - don't want to force it although it looks like it should lift from the exploded diagram.

Carefully I found they would lift to around 45 degrees

[Pint of Adnams]

Prototype Notes summarised:

 

Unfortunately posts concerning these bogie Tram Cars (as the GER listed them) are spread across several threads. Noting the variations mention by RapidoCorbs, queries from others, and having inspected the Titfield Buffet Car model (my BR-numbered pair are currently being de-trunked from Hattons) I thought I should clarify a few points.

 

Wisbech and Upwell Cars 7 & 8 were fitted with the Westinghouse air brake with hand-operated brake and oil lighting (so no gas cylinders) and remained as such whilst in service on the W&U and until conversion during September 1928. Those wishing to fit more prototypical couplings for use in a W&U setting can happily dispense with the gas cylinder representations. The GE Class C53/LNER Class J70 0-6-0T were Westinghouse-fitted, as were the GE Class G15/LNER Class Y6 0-4-0T from 1891. Neither class was fitted with, nor had the boiler capacity, for steam heating.

 

These Cars were converted for use on the Kelvedon & Tollesbury during September 1928, the hand brake being removed together with the 1st/3rd Class division partition in no. 7, the lighting changed to incandescent gas (hence the accompanying storage cylinders) and steam heating fitted.

 

A copy of the official GER Carriage Register entry is reproduced below:

 

 

[Jammy2305]

I've just had my model of No.7 (as preserved) next to my pre-1919 GER pack and I've noticed something frustrating interesting: 

 

The bodyshell used is correctly that for No.7, but the roof is from No.8 as it has the more angular rainstrips... 

 

 

- James

[Obadiah]

Now to go with one's new W&U tramcars, you really need a brake vehicle, so here is my humble effort in that direction. Modelled after the vehicles on the Tollesbury line, the coach is a much modified Hatton's Genesis six wheel brake, riding on a Chivers LMS six wheel chassis kit 'slammed to the ground' on 9mm Lomac wheels. Add new buffer beams and bench seating and there you have it. Whilst not 100% GER, it does complete the ensemble. Just awaiting a J67/8/9 to arrive.

[RapidoLinny]

On 27/12/2023 at 19:45, Jammy2305 said:

I've just had my model of No.7 (as preserved) next to my pre-1919 GER pack and I've noticed something frustrating interesting: 

 

The bodyshell used is correctly that for No.7, but the roof is from No.8 as it has the more angular rainstrips... 

 

 

- James

Hi James,

Sorry for the delayed reply, I've only just spotted your post!

So the roof fitted to your preservation-era model of no. 7 is what we intended. As preserved, number 7 has a roof that doesn't match either of the two tramcars during their service life - it is missing the external cross-ribs, and is smooth along its length.

We couldn't justify a whole new roof tooling for this one model, so we went with the roof which we thought best represented it today - that being the one with only one set of rainstrips, rather than the double rainstrips on number 7 as in service. It's a compromise, but hopefully one that makes sense when you hear our thought process.

Thanks,

Linny

[rorz101uk]

Just ordered these in BR maroon, can’t wait, next is to order a J70 in Early BR. 

[rorz101uk]

Hi All 

 

my tramcars arrived at the weekend, unfortunately one of them is damaged and missing parts, I did contact the retailer but unfortunately they haven’t got any more in stock, I’ve contacted Rapido and emailed warranty department, just waiting a reply as it was the weekend