SECR 6w Goods Brake (SR Dia.1558)

[Skinnylinny]

4 hours ago, KymN said:

 

I appreciate this discussion - I realised early on that 'NEM' might mean several different things.  I have received two vans to date, and will have to find a way to fit Kadees. We are now back to cutting off and starting again.  The old 'faithful ' #5 keeps on appearing. Technology is going backwards, just faster.

It's a tricky one - if we want to provide "NEM" pockets as most people think of them (Actually, strictly, the "NEM 362" standard - the boxy one) the standard specified the position of the box relative to the buffer faces and rail height. Unfortunately, in order to match that specification (specifically how far back the coupling box would have to be) we found it would clash with the outer axle, as the coupling box also has to have a mechanism for some sideways movement (usually the NEM 363 "fishtail" on the NEM 362 "box" in the UK). 

While it is possible to have a rigidly-mounted box for Kadee users (as the heads of the knuckles have some swivel built in) this would then stop those who prefer to use other close-couplers (bar couplings or Roco type - basically any type that forms a rigid bar when coupled) from using it.

We do our best to have coupling mounts that match NEM 362 when we can, but sometimes we're just too pressed for space, and we have to use the NEM 363 (for use "under restrictive installation conditions"), so at least people can know what mount there is, as it matches the standard.

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, KymN said:

 

I appreciate this discussion - I realised early on that 'NEM' might mean several different things.  I have received two vans to date, and will have to find a way to fit Kadees. We are now back to cutting off and starting again.  The old 'faithful ' #5 keeps on appearing. Technology is going backwards, just faster.

The #146 is the Whisker replacement for the #46  which was just a longer #5. The advantage of the longer shank on stock with buffers is that the draft box can be tucked neatly back under the wagon, where some of it usually has to protrude if a #5 is used.

 

No practical difference, just a bit tidier!

 

John

[RapidoCorbs]

12 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I have the preserved one from Train Times as well and very nice it is.

I bought two of the single veranda ones from Rails. One is in the SER red livery and looks good. Now all we need is some SER wagons to go with it.

I also have one of the SE&CR ones which is lettered in the early SE&CR Wainwright style. Now this should a lead grey colour similar to the preserved one, but it is darker, more like the later Maunsell grey. Does anyone else have this and what do they think ? Rails have produced two of the grey ones and I am not sure if they are both the same shade.

This is not a complaint and I can live with it and weather it down to a lighter leadier shade. Was it painted darker for a specific reason based on research ?

 

All the best

Ray

 

On my notes the two SECR ones from Rails are the same colour (as are the two 'main range' ones, but with them one has grey undergubbins and one black). The preserved one is BR grey with SECR lettering (to match the prototype).

[Geoff_E]

15 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

On my notes the two SECR ones from Rails are the same colour (as are the two 'main range' ones, but with them one has grey undergubbins and one black). The preserved one is BR grey with SECR lettering (to match the prototype).

It is quite clear from the photographs of the vans on the Rails website that one (2025) is darker than the other (12067). I have a 2025, which is what I suspect wainwright1 has as well.

 

Geoff

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Geoff_E said:

It is quite clear from the photographs of the vans on the Rails website that one (2025) is darker than the other (12067). I have a 2025, which is what I suspect wainwright1 has as well.

 

There would inevitably have been a darkening of the grey paint in service, so, ideally, unless you are modelling the Ashford paint shop, no two of your SE&CR goods stock should be quite the same shade of grey.

[amdaley]

39 minutes ago, Geoff_E said:

It is quite clear from the photographs of the vans on the Rails website that one (2025) is darker than the other (12067). I have a 2025, which is what I suspect wainwright1 has as well.

 

Geoff

 

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There would inevitably have been a darkening of the grey paint in service, so, ideally, unless you are modelling the Ashford paint shop, no two of your SE&CR goods stock should be quite the same shade of grey.

 

Remember its oil based paint we're talking about here.

Over time oil based paint will lighten.

This is known as fading or lightening.

Also remember that these paints would have been hand made according to colour recipes in the various paint shops.

So there would be variations even when vehicles were painted brand new.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, amdaley said:

Remember its oil based paint we're talking about here.

 

The usual base constituent of the grey paint used for wagons at this time was white lead, a form of lead carbonate. This reacts with hydrogen sulfide, which was a plentiful atmospheric pollutant in that coal burning age, to form lead sulfide, which is black. The effect is thus for grey wagons to become darker over time. (The same goes for the white-painted carriage roofs.) There is plenty of photographic evidence for this.

[amdaley]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The usual base constituent of the grey paint used for wagons at this time was white lead, a form of lead carbonate. This reacts with hydrogen sulfide, which was a plentiful atmospheric pollutant in that coal burning age, to form lead sulfide, which is black. The effect is thus for grey wagons to become darker over time. (The same goes for the white-painted carriage roofs.) There is plenty of photographic evidence for this.

I can remember back in the day when burning off / scraping old pre 60's paint you were advised to wear a mask because of the lead content of such paints.

[PeterStiles]

16 minutes ago, amdaley said:

back in the day

No, no.

'back in the day' you were told to stop whinging about the smell and to get on with it...

[JSpencer]

16 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

On my notes the two SECR ones from Rails are the same colour (as are the two 'main range' ones, but with them one has grey undergubbins and one black). The preserved one is BR grey with SECR lettering (to match the prototype).

 

Ah but you still missed all the rotted split timbers on the ends..... out with the scalpel and some wood coloured paint LOL

[WD1995]

On 07/06/2023 at 10:13, wainwright1 said:

I have the preserved one from Train Times as well and very nice it is.

I bought two of the single veranda ones from Rails. One is in the SER red livery and looks good. Now all we need is some SER wagons to go with it.

I also have one of the SE&CR ones which is lettered in the early SE&CR Wainwright style. Now this should a lead grey colour similar to the preserved one, but it is darker, more like the later Maunsell grey. Does anyone else have this and what do they think ? Rails have produced two of the grey ones and I am not sure if they are both the same shade.

This is not a complaint and I can live with it and weather it down to a lighter leadier shade. Was it painted darker for a specific reason based on research ?

 

All the best

Ray

 

I have the two Rails grey ones and they are both the same shade, going by the photos on their website one was a lighter shade which I thought would be for Wainwright era and the other darker for the Maunsell era. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can shed some light for us as it has boggled me

[RapidoCorbs]

On 08/06/2023 at 14:15, Geoff_E said:

It is quite clear from the photographs of the vans on the Rails website that one (2025) is darker than the other (12067). I have a 2025, which is what I suspect wainwright1 has as well.

 

Geoff

 

It's the same colour with different lighting/colour grading.

 

[LucasK]

On 16/04/2022 at 11:16, KymN said:

 

I know I shouldn't argue with the folk that are becoming one of the better UK manufacturers, but I think that Rapido has picked the wrong horse here.  Close enough in this case would produce a workable solution for the many Kadee users, whereas strictly following a standard won't.  Nevertheless I have ordered the AMF87 product (I hope - I don't speak French!).

Just wondered how you got on with these? I'm in a identical situation and looking at options

Cheers,
Lucas

[Rich46]

I have used a Kadee No.17 coupling pushed into the Rapido fitting. I will probably have to fit something to set it at the correct height and stop the coupling slipping out.

[Dunsignalling]

Yesterday, I successfully unclipped the brake yokes from each end and removed one wheelset so I can see/get at the relevant area. One bearing has gone AWOL (beware, they don't seem to be glued in) but I have some Romford ones of that "short and pointy" style in my stash.

 

EDIT: missing bearing found as soon as I stopped looking for it.😁

 

Some thinking time first, later today, but I'll clearly need to cut/grind away some under-floor details to make room for a platform on which to mount a Kadee #146 (or possibly #141) whisker coupler.  Fortunately, nothing that's likely to be coming off seems to be visible with the model right-way-up on the track.

 

It looks doable, albeit fiddly and time-consuming (at least for the first one), and I'm glad I only have two of these vans to do!

 

John

Edited June 16, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[KymN]

I have just ordered some Bachmann NEM 362 pockets that fit into the NEM 363 receivers. I figure that Kadee short couplers might work here, so watch this space!  But there is a French company that makes Kadee adapters for this.  I just need to remember the name 🤪.

[Dunsignalling]

I've just begun to make the mods necesssary to fit 'Whisker' type Kadees to my first van.

 

Photo.1 shows the unaltered model, with just the brake yokes, wheels and coupler mount detached for access. 

 

Photo. 2 shows where various lugs and ridges have been ground away to create flush surfaces.

 

Next step will to be building up a platform between the representations of the buffer springs on which to mount the draft box. 

 

Will be fiddling further whilst listening to TMS and more pics will follow. 

 

John

Edited June 16, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Next step.

 

Photo.3: Basic block built up on a piece of Evergreen 0.125" x 0.156" strip, cut to fit into the longitudinal  indentation in the underframe. "Cheeks" added on either side from two thicknesses of 0.040" x 0.250"  

 

Photos 4 and 5, Kadee #242 draft box glued to block.

 

John

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

And Finally.

 

Photo.6: The mounting block/draft box drilled and tapped. Screw inserted without lid attached and cut to length ensures that when the lid is fitted, the screw will be entirely contained inside the block.

 

With the lip on the pocket fitting behind the buffer beam, my preferred buffer-to-buffer gap of 4mm will be achieved. Adjust to taste if you need more or less. 

 

Photos.7 and 8: The completed unit attached to the van. Correct height was achieved using a #141 Kadee. 

 

I'm leaving the yokes off until I've done the other end, but looking at my unaltered van, there shouldn't be issues with them clearing the draft boxes.

 

John

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've just begun to make the mods necesssary to fit 'Whisker' type Kadees to my first van.

 

Photo.1 shows the unaltered model, with just the brake yokes, wheels and coupler mount detached for access. 

 

Photo. 2 shows where various lugs and ridges have been ground away to create flush surfaces.

 

Next step will to be building up a platform between the representations of the buffer springs on which to mount the draft box. 

 

Will be fiddling further whilst listening to TMS and more pics will follow. 

 

John

 

Just a quick update. Things are a bit tighter at the other end due to the longitudinal brake link under the floor being offset in that direction.

 

However, there is still enough room for the Kadee box without needing to cut any of it away.

 

John

[JSpencer]

One Good's break deserves another.... six.....

 

After receiving 2010 in Preserved SECR lettered, BR grey (as per KESR), the remaining 6 arrived from Rails. These were ordered as one block on the first day. More on the rails versions appear in that thread. Here I will show the family together (the KESR being posted earlier with all the preserved Rapido wagons they had previously done). Along with a couple photos showing the SECR twin veranda types and BR grey versions (SECR 2010 and BR).

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by JSpencer

[wainwright1]

Looking at these most recent post showing all the types and the slightly earlier Rapido Corbs ones, the two single veranda SE&CR vans definitely appear to be the wrong colour. They should be lead grey as per the preserved example (left hand end third picture) not the darker grey from the Maunsell period.

 

 

[No Decorum]

4 hours ago, JSpencer said:

One Good's break deserves another.... six.....

 

After receiving 2010 in Preserved SECR lettered, BR grey (as per KESR), the remaining 6 arrived from Rails. These were ordered as one block on the first day. More on the rails versions appear in that thread. Here I will show the family together (the KESR being posted earlier with all the preserved Rapido wagons they had previously done). Along with a couple photos showing the SECR twin veranda types and BR grey versions (SECR 2010 and BR).

 

 

I wonder how many of us have been tempted to buy far more of these than we need for our trains. I know I have!

Edited June 19, 2023 by No Decorum
Spelling. Where has the spell checker gone?

[JSpencer]

2 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I wonder how many of us have been empted to buy far more of these than we need for our trains. I know I have!

 

Indeed, there are now almost as many brake vans (8 in total) as there SECR goods trains (10 in total) on my layout with only 4 C class, 1 N class for mainline goods and smaller Ps and terriers on secondary trains.

6 of the 10 goods trains can work in either era, with 2 being confined to early days and 2 to later days.

 

The SER van will be for an SER train, the LCDR train has a kit yet to be built, so 6 SECR vans for 8 trains.

The Dance Halls did not appear until right at the very end (Bachmann + Cambrian kit), the twin Veranda types mostly happened under big SECR letters (I cannot remember seeing either Wainwright lettering on these) while the single Veranda type gradually disappeared as they were converted and so never had later lettering types.

 

Another aspect, for much of the SECR, most goods trains were run with a brake van at each end. This seems to have stopped in the last years but a photo does exist of a train having Wainwright SECR single Veranda at one end and later SECR twin at the other....

 

Could I have done all this with fewer? probably, I could brought 2 less and still cover most/all scenarios.

 

We don't know when the next run will be and probably better to have too many than not enough.

Especially as I suspect more SECR RTR wagons will appear, or private livery RCH wagons entirely suitable for the South East, or wagons from other pre-grouping lines which can be seen in abundance...

Doubtless other freight loco types will appear too.

 

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Looking at these most recent post showing all the types and the slightly earlier Rapido Corbs ones, the two single veranda SE&CR vans definitely appear to be the wrong colour. They should be lead grey as per the preserved example (left hand end third picture) not the darker grey from the Maunsell period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 2010 van as preserved is in BR grey as she is on the KESR today (minus all the wood rot!). So that grey may not be correct either. It is said it should be different/lighter to the Maunsell grey and there is a lot written up by the SECR club. But exactly what kind of grey, we do not know. My hunch, it was still relatively dark compared to 2010.