S.A.C Martin Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I maintain that the motor bogie wouldn't have had quite so much trouble if the bogies used point to point bearings. I'm flummoxed by this design decision most. Are any of the other Limby offerings in the vein of the 4VEP (i.e the EMUs) running with these clip in axles? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted December 6, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2011 I maintain that the motor bogie wouldn't have had quite so much trouble if the bogies used point to point bearings. I'm flummoxed by this design decision most. Are any of the other Limby offerings in the vein of the 4VEP (i.e the EMUs) running with these clip in axles? From your earlier comprehensive investigations, didn't it look like the coupler design pretty much forced the inside bearing decision? Maybe we have the law of unintended consequences in action :-/ The Javelin doesn't seem to suffer from these running problems, or at least people are keeping quiet about it if they do, despite using the same Limby (OK I should stop using that phrase) power bogie, so it does look like the much higher rolling resistance is the main issue here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 From your earlier comprehensive investigations, didn't it look like the coupler design pretty much forced the inside bearing decision? Maybe we have the law of unintended consequences in action :-/ But with relatively simple modifications, I have managed to fit point to point bearings on mind and keep the couplings between the carriages. It did seem like that at first, but for me, after the mods, it looks like they missed a trick in the shape of the bogie. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Though of course they'd have to absorb the cost of acquiring said factory into their costs, yup, that works... An orange is also heavier than a lighter apple... The motor is pure, 100% Hornby. It was first applied to ex-Lima products as an upgrade, but that's the extent of it. Or, perhaps they actually developed this motor bogie specifically for these kind of applications (just as Bachmann developed their MU motor bogie)? Apart from the initial traction tyre less versions, the VEP is the first model on which this motor bogie appears to have failed badly. Well you lives and you learns - so thanks - but of one thing I am certain - traction tyres should be banned... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadyneman Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) Not wishing to be facetious but Hornby have already got and own a factory space. It's in MARGATE!! With growing wage demands, workforce problems and increases in the cost of metal in China isn't it about time we brought our model ralways back home where they belong? I'm sure there are a few British workers who would love a job in a British factory making things for Britain for a British company!! Edited December 6, 2011 by metadyneman 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Not wishing to be facetious but Hornby have already got and own a factory space. It's in MARGATE!! With growing wage demands, workforce problems and increases in the cost of metal in China isn't it about time we brought our model ralways back home where they belong? I'm sure there are a few British workers who would love a job in a British factory making things for Britain for a British company!! Your post made me think. My response is not directed at you personally but more at leaving the market be and focusing on modelling what can be done. In the fierce market place there is little room for sentiment. I think it would be sensible to assume that Hornby's intention is based on something along the following lines: increase quality -> reduced production costs = greater profitability. I can see no reason why a British manufacturer would shift it's production line to another continent if it did not fulfil these ends. Even if the cost in production has increased (which would have been considered at the time the agreements were formed) it will still be cheaper than production here. The VEP may has perceived problems for some (me included) but they are precisely that. If it were so great then why are VEPS still for sale and being readily purchased. There is no obvious basis for suggesting that moving production back to the UK would have any effect on the quality. Perhaps it would be best to focus on what can be done to improve the model with the means available. Some are simple, some less so. As has already been shown in this thread a fair amount of skill will allow the cab can be altered with the effect of improving the model vastly. This can also be done without the need to purchase additional parts. As for traction, why not consider transplanting drive mechanisms from alternative sources and enjoy the modelling process. Perhaps the HJ 33 would be suitable. If it's not the correct size then what about some of the custom made drive systems, such as the Bullant range. It may be a challenge to undertake such a project, but it's most likely to achieve a resolution to the issues identified far quicker than hoping Hornby will make such fundamental changes to the product. I posted some pictures of the prototype recently. I now have a jewellers saw poised over the cab. I intend to cut and shut in order to make the best of what I can and to enhance my personal perception of the model. Later a ruler will be put over the HJ 33, and I will post some pictures of the results in the modifying r-t-r section soon. Watch this space... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRAILRAGE Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Just incase people hadn't realised, spares for the VEP are now available. Have just received an order from abbiegails. 1 pack of 'Wheel set for drive unit vep' (X6310) and 2 packs of 'coach bogie vep r2947' (X6323) I've tinkered around with the trailer bogies so thought i'd buy a few spare ones and plan is to have no traction tyres on the motor coach. Interestingly the axles have one traction tyre on each set as opposed to my VEP that has both tyres on one axle. Price wise the axles were £3.50 for the pair and the trailer bogies were about £1.50 for a pair of them which I decided was worth a punt. Other spares are listed on their website. Just checked their website neither of which are now listed guess their sold out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Scottish Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Just checked their website neither of which are now listed guess their sold out I wonder why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Red Fox Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) The VEP may has perceived problems for some (me included) but they are precisely that. If it were so great then why are VEPS still for sale and being readily purchased. VEPs are still for sale because Hornby don't accept there is a problem, if there was 49 pages of mostly negative posts about a Bachmann unit I think we would have seen some action by now, for example the 2EPB number issue. Feedback from my local model shop is the VEP is not selling because of its known problems, I think that Hattons and Rails still having stock from release says quite a bit when the initial release of the Bachmann CEP flew off the shelves and had to be boosted by further orders. Though I must say the work being done by some people to improve their VEPs is quite extraordinary but should all this work really need to be done on what is meant to be a premium quality model?? I think not. Edited December 8, 2011 by Red Fox 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 8, 2011 I do wonder if anyone has actually paid the full RRP for a Hornby 4VEP? Or even if any retailer has one with the full RRP as it's price sticker? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 I suspect this has been bad news for a number of smaller shops, where margins are tighter. They will have seen the success of the Bachmann CEP, and thought the VEP was bound to mimic it. May well have ordered more than usual, expecting them to fly out at close to RRP as a "must have". Not good in these straitened times for every retailer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 what is meant to be a premium quality model I may have missed it, but where did Hornby say the VEP was to be billed as such? or are we just making assumptions based on price, which we all know is, well, fluid, from Hornby's point of view ...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I may have missed it, but where did Hornby say the VEP was to be billed as such? or are we just making assumptions based on price, which we all know is, well, fluid, from Hornby's point of view ...... I must confess, I absolutely thought it would be purely on the basis of Hornby's own advertising, and placing it within the main range. Certainly, it never crossed my mind it would go the way of the Javelin or Pendolino to the "trainset" sort of quality but minus, well, the actual trainset, in the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 Didn't Hornby come out and say with the pendolino and javelin would be lower quality train set models ? Whereas with the vep the combination of bring in the standard range and a high price gave the expectation of a quality model. Customers expectation is typically that a high price will be high quality, hence so many people feeling let down 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 My point exactly Hornby's fidelity (I won't use the term quality here) has always been varied across the range and certainly over the last few years they seem to have abandoned a rigid pricing policy, preferring to see what the market will stand from model to model. They appear to have got it wrong with the RRP of the VEP leading folks to compare it to the Bachmann EMU and expect it to be of the same specification, or better - when as we have seen from the pages and pages of this topic it is more of a "middle ground" model. maybe Hornby should re-introduce the "top link" or "silver seal" branding for their highest fidelity models? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 My point exactly maybe Hornby should re-introduce the "top link" or "silver seal" branding for their highest fidelity models? I think that would be very sensible if they intend to continue with this mix of low medium and high quality releases 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadyneman Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Ugh... silver seal harks back to awful memories of those dreadful shiny metal tyred wheels with square axles which were miles out of gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 Ah, but it also harks back to the superb Fleischman derived metal bodied ringfield unit that just runs and runs. When the Silver Seal branding was first used the models were the absolute pinnacle of production from Margate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Just noticed the new Hornby video, has a NSE VEP on it.......................and it is not running around the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadyneman Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Ah, but it also harks back to the superb Fleischman derived metal bodied ringfield unit that just runs and runs. When the Silver Seal branding was first used the models were the absolute pinnacle of production from Margate. They were indeed, I had an original Evening star when first introduced. Then Hornby developed their own "cheap & nasty" version of the ringfield motor with that awful arragement of cast mazak motor/gear and wheel housing assembly with plastic faceplate and "bend down" carbon brush spring retainers which became the stndard throughout the range. Yuk! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 . I didn't know that that version of the Ringfield motor came from Fleishmann, I had ASSUMED that it came from Hornby-Dublo from the time it was part of Rovex. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 Here's my Evening Star Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Strange to think that the tooling for that model is still in the Hornby range today, albeit not as well liveried as that Triang model of yours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 From a potential customers' point of view... A quote from page 70 of Hornby's 2010 Catalogue :- "For commuter traffic enthusiasts the Hitachi 395 brings this form of people transport right up to date, but for those interested in the later half of the 20th century the class 423 VEPs (Vestibule Electro Pneumatic) enters into the superb* Hornby range in two guises making a tremendously welcome addition to the Train Pack range." End of quote, * My emphasis.... Lack of punctuation, is, as quoted. Now....How many of us customers / retailers were taken in by this spin ?....Only to find that the product offered for sale, didn't match their expectations. l've got more references to Hornby's (perceived and misleading) inclusion of the 4-VEP into the 'Superb' Train Pack Range... But, l'll hold fire, for the moment 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted December 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thanks Ceptic, you make a strong case, although I guess Hornby would counter by saying ALL their products are superb certainly looks misleading to me on the basis of the 2010 catalogue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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