Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[Stevelewis]

I have to say I won't be buying another one.. a total disappointment and let down. I'm considering de motoring mine and having it as a dummy unit for haulage by either a 33/1 or a Bachmann EPB. Total waste of my money as far as I'm concerned. I'm even considering cancelling my order for a 5 car Brighton Belle in favour of what is looking to be a vastly superior Blue Pullman from Bachmann, unless there is some announcement from Hornby that it won't be manufactured in the same way as the VEP!

 

I see a battle looming! I reckon that the cost of the Blue Pullman and the 5-BEL Brighton Belle, will prevent many from buying both

so I reckon that the ffirst to appear on the market will gain the lion's share of sales ( well initially anyway).

 

But even if the 5 BEL arrives first unless there is specific info from Hornby indicating that it is far superior mechanically to the VEP I reckon many will hold back on purchasing, I know that some retailers have had cancelled pre-0rders, and as a result reduced their orders for the 5 BEL

[petee19]

 

I see a battle looming! I reckon that the cost of the Blue Pullman and the 5-BEL Brighton Belle, will prevent many from buying both

so I reckon that the ffirst to appear on the market will gain the lion's share of sales ( well initially anyway).

 

But even if the 5 BEL arrives first unless there is specific info from Hornby indicating that it is far superior mechanically to the VEP I reckon many will hold back on purchasing, I know that some retailers have had cancelled pre-0rders, and as a result reduced their orders for the 5 BEL

 

I for one cancelled my order with Hattons this week for the BB and ordered the BP instead.Hopefully the BB will be a better model than the VEP(from what I have read) but I'm not prepared to take any chances untill it has arrived and there is some positive feedback

[kintbury jon]

Just incase people hadn't realised, spares for the VEP are now available.

 

Have just received an order from abbiegails. 1 pack of 'Wheel set for drive unit vep' (X6310) and 2 packs of 'coach bogie vep r2947' (X6323)

 

I've tinkered around with the trailer bogies so thought i'd buy a few spare ones and plan is to have no traction tyres on the motor coach. Interestingly the axles have one traction tyre on each set as opposed to my VEP that has both tyres on one axle.

 

Price wise the axles were £3.50 for the pair and the trailer bogies were about £1.50 for a pair of them which I decided was worth a punt.

 

Other spares are listed on their website.

Edited November 30, 2011 by kintbury jon

[gelboy45]

Any spare compartment corridor windows and doors? ;O)))

 

Gerry

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Any spare compartment corridor windows and doors? ;O)))

 

Gerry

 

Preferably moulded in clear plastic...

[Godfrey Glyn]

Just incase people hadn't realised, spares for the VEP are now available.

 

Have just received an order from abbiegails. 1 pack of 'Wheel set for drive unit vep' (X6310) and 2 packs of 'coach bogie vep r2947' (X6323)

 

I've tinkered around with the trailer bogies so thought i'd buy a few spare ones and plan is to have no traction tyres on the motor coach. Interestingly the axles have one traction tyre on each set as opposed to my VEP that has both tyres on one axle.

 

Price wise the axles were £3.50 for the pair and the trailer bogies were about £1.50 for a pair of them which I decided was worth a punt.

 

Other spares are listed on their website.

 

I sent my lumpy NSE version back to Hornby. The arrangement of the traction tyres has been changed to a diagonal arrangement and it is now a good runner. I didn't mark the carriage before sending it back so I don't know if they changed the bogie or the whole carriage, it certainly came back very quickly. Back at the end of October I spoke to Simon Kohler at the NRM and he seemed to indicate that it would be easy for them to change the solid compartment moulding. Maybe they will slip them in later, they seem to have a very different policy to Bachmann. I recall that the smoke box door of the original Merchant Navies was corrected and then became available (but only if you were in the know), and the pullman bogies were also changed without much publicity. I sent all mine back to Hornby for replacement, it must have kept their engineer busy for days! My experience of dealing with the public would suggest that when you, or your organisation, make a mistake, put your hands up as soon as possible and try and put it right. Hornby seem to find that difficult. Its a great pity.

Godfrey

[S.A.C Martin]

Jon, thanks for that heads up. Will be ordering some spares for this build.

 

Just to apologise for my lack of progress on everything, Cadwork too - my jobs are taking up all of my time at the minute. Thank goodness both my bosses are modellers...!

[petee19]

 

I sent my lumpy NSE version back to Hornby. The arrangement of the traction tyres has been changed to a diagonal arrangement and it is now a good runner. I didn't mark the carriage before sending it back so I don't know if they changed the bogie or the whole carriage, it certainly came back very quickly. Back at the end of October I spoke to Simon Kohler at the NRM and he seemed to indicate that it would be easy for them to change the solid compartment moulding. Maybe they will slip them in later, they seem to have a very different policy to Bachmann. I recall that the smoke box door of the original Merchant Navies was corrected and then became available (but only if you were in the know), and the pullman bogies were also changed without much publicity. I sent all mine back to Hornby for replacement, it must have kept their engineer busy for days! My experience of dealing with the public would suggest that when you, or your organisation, make a mistake, put your hands up as soon as possible and try and put it right. Hornby seem to find that difficult. Its a great pity.

Godfrey

 

So here's the simple answer guy's,and gal's,SEND IT BACK TO Hornby,I'm sure if Hornby are inundated with returns they will hopefully put thing right and maybe possibly stop similar events happening with the BB.

[gc4946]

 

I sent my lumpy NSE version back to Hornby. The arrangement of the traction tyres has been changed to a diagonal arrangement and it is now a good runner.

Godfrey

 

If this simple modification works, assuming the motor runs OK when I test run it in the shops, then I may be interested in buying a 4VEP with spare traction-tyred wheelsets on one side to install in the motor bogie for Xmas.

On other Hornby motor-bogied locos and units, both wheelsets with traction tyres are on one side and I've never had any problems with running or pickup with that arrangement.

[SRman]

On other Hornby motor-bogied locos and units, both wheelsets with traction tyres are on one side and I've never had any problems with running or pickup with that arrangement.

 

I have several Hornby class 73s running on DCC and I found the pickup arrangement was improved by reversing one of the axles so that the traction tyres were on opposite sides of the bogie. One of these has a sound decoder fitted; sound decoders will 'find' any weaknesses in pickup arrangements, or dirty wheels/track, and make them more noticeable than non-sound decoders. Nevertheless, they work well enough with none of the problems reported for the VEPs.

[metadyneman]

To be really honest, I don't think we should be accepting any model from any manufacturer that insists on using traction tyres on their models. Has anyone seen a UK outline loco from Bachmann which uses them?... No! Are there any Bachmann models which could remotely need them? No! Is Bachmann inherantly cheaper than Hornby for the same level of detail.. yes! so without being too picky here... what is going wrong between the design floor and the production management at Hornby which is still fobbing us off with flaming traction tyres????? Traction tyres are a fundamental flaw in any decent ready to run model and the sooner Hornby change the way they manufacture their models to exclude traction tyres, the better!

[phil gollin]

 

.......... Back at the end of October I spoke to Simon Kohler at the NRM and he seemed to indicate that it would be easy for them to change the solid compartment moulding. ................

 

 

Well ! Why didn't they do it right first time !

 

That is a dreadful thing to say, almost an admission that the "B-team" were on duty for this model.

 

I find that an almost impossibly weird thing to say.

 

.

[RedgateModels]

Are there any Bachmann models which could remotely need them? No!

 

Yes, the Standard 5 is notoriously light footed, even with the bogie spring removed it struggles with a few coaches up any kind of incline - a Hornby tender drive romps up no problems.

 

Unless we are prepared to accept significantly higher costs to replace mazak weight with tungsten like the recent N gauge steamies then traction tyres will still be an option to ensure that trains can move round tight curves and up gradients - especially in the markets that Hornby see themselves in.

[Gilwell Park]

To be really honest, I don't think we should be accepting any model from any manufacturer that insists on using traction tyres on their models. Has anyone seen a UK outline loco from Bachmann which uses them?... No! Are there any Bachmann models which could remotely need them? No! Is Bachmann inherantly cheaper than Hornby for the same level of detail.. yes! so without being too picky here... what is going wrong between the design floor and the production management at Hornby which is still fobbing us off with flaming traction tyres????? Traction tyres are a fundamental flaw in any decent ready to run model and the sooner Hornby change the way they manufacture their models to exclude traction tyres, the better!

 

 

What is fundamentally wrong with traction tyres? I still use an original (repainted, detailed) Hornby Evening Star because it is the only loco, apart from a Hornby Dublo West Country, that will pull my fitted freight. I cannot justify replacing my locos every time a slightly better version comes out, they may look better but if they don't work better they are no use.

 

Roger.

[Trevellan]

What is fundamentally wrong with traction tyres?

It's a personal thing, but I detest them because they pick up dirt more readily than metal tyres, they can degrade over time and can adversely affect running quality. If you're happy with them, fine. However, I'd rather have models with an adequate power/weight ratio so they can shift themselves.

[Western Scottish]

 

Yes, the Standard 5 is notoriously light footed, even with the bogie spring removed it struggles with a few coaches up any kind of incline - a Hornby tender drive romps up no problems.

 

Unless we are prepared to accept significantly higher costs to replace mazak weight with tungsten like the recent N gauge steamies then traction tyres will still be an option to ensure that trains can move round tight curves and up gradients - especially in the markets that Hornby see themselves in.

The Standard 5 is now some years old . It would perhaps have been better to say "are there any recent Bachmann models ........." . Look at the new Compound . Its a 4-4-0 with good haulage capabilities. Even though its a limited edition its still around the same price as Hornbys normal production. Their 4-4-0s (Schools T9)all have traction tyres

 

I think the point about the market Hornby sees itself in is a good one. Traction tyres may be ok for Toys that get bought at Christmas and will have limited use. But for the die hard modeller with scale length trains they are not appropriate. Its the difference between knock them out , quick buck short termism and proper engineering for the long term. Hornby just don't get this! The 4 VEP is a victim . What will the 5 BEL bring?

Edited December 2, 2011 by Western Scottish

[Oldddudders]

I have a number of US HO kettles which arrived with traction tyres (tires!) but also provided - free - the metal alternative, which I have fitted, and they haul everything I ask of them. On the other hand, I find the Hornby T9 with traction tyres to be a great success, able to move up to a dozen Maunsells without drama. I cannot imagine how it could be expected to perform like that without them. The M7, which lacks them, is a dead loss by comparison, unlike its prototype in my yoof, which hauled endless strings of coaches between Waterloo and Clapham Yard. My recent purchases of a number of Electrotren - part of the Hornby empire - ABJ railcars, all fitted with traction tyres, all reveal themselves to be both sure-footed and good on electrical continuity.

 

I cannot say traction tyres are a bad thing per se, but the VEP installation does seem to have missed its target.

[S.A.C Martin]

I actually modified a 14XX to have no traction tyres, and found both running capabilities and its haulage capacity to be unaffected - in the former, significantly improved in terms of smoothness of ride.

 

I do feel that if Bachmann can make two 4-4-0s which are arguably more difficult to balance for traction (truro/compound) without traction tyres, then the T9 possibly didn't need them, and by that logic I know the schools class definitely didn't need traction tyres.

[Ben Alder]

My two Scottish 4-4-0 hybrids both have T9 chassis with the traction tyres removed, and perform their duties- 2-3 coaches or a string of wagons - with no trace of effort or slippage, and run a lot smoother than when the tyre was fitted. There are,though, no gradients involved here, and fairly gentle curves, but their performance has encouraged me to tackle another two locos, once I get the layout rebuilt

[Bill]

Traction tyres are inherently fishy - in real life mr Maunsell did not build steam Engines with rubber tyres - they had steel tyres...

Did they ever build BR EMU's with rubber tyres? So to my mind there is something intrinsically not right about them and wish they were never used. They, for me, somehow spoil the overall aesthetics and feeling about the model.

 

We have to put up with compromised track gauge etc and can do so - sort of! - but for me traction tyres are the final straw in any purchasing decsions, so no Hornby 63s.

 

I had to get a Schools and a T9 but intead of having 6 or so of each I only have one of each for decorative purposes - bad business decision Mr Hornby! My Dapol 14xx was bought second hand off of Ebay before I knew the d###mn things existed... (and would love to find a way to fix it.)

 

I did not buy a VEP in the first instance because of the tyres - and having read about all the other deficiencies, every day feel better and better about the decison. And if the Brighton Belle has them I will probably definitely get an O gauge shunter instead and disappear into the darkside of railway modelling .

Edited December 2, 2011 by Bill

[Gilwell Park]

The Standard 5 is now some years old . It would perhaps have been better to say "are there any recent Bachmann models ........." . Look at the new Compound . Its a 4-4-0 with good haulage capabilities. Even though its a limited edition its still around the same price as Hornbys normal production. Their 4-4-0s (Schools T9)all have traction tyres

 

I think the point about the market Hornby sees itself in is a good one. Traction tyres may be ok for Toys that get bought at Christmas and will have limited use. But for the die hard modeller with scale length trains they are not appropriate. Its the difference between knock them out , quick buck short termism and proper engineering for the long term. Hornby just don't get this! The 4 VEP is a victim . What will the 5 BEL bring?

 

Some of my engines need tyres because they have to pull scale length trains, and are run regularly, not just at Christmas. Better than filling the body full of lead which puts extra weight on bearings and gears.

[Gilwell Park]

Traction tyres are inherently fishy - in real life mr Maunsell did not build steam Engines with rubber tyres - they had steel tyres...

Did they ever build BR EMU's with rubber tyres? So to my mind there is something intrinsically not right about them and wish they were never used. They, for me, somehow spoil the overall aesthetics and feeling about the model.

 

We have to put up with compromised track gauge etc and can do so - sort of! - but for me traction tyres are the final straw in any purchasing decsions, so no Hornby 63s.

 

I had to get a Schools and a T9 but intead of having 6 or so of each I only have one of each for decorative purposes - bad business decision Mr Hornby! My Dapol 14xx was bought second hand off of Ebay before I knew the d###mn things existed... (and would love to find a way to fix it.)

 

I did not buy a VEP in the first instance because of the tyres - and having read about all the other deficiencies, every day feel better and better about the decison. And if the Brighton Belle has them I will probably definitely get an O gauge shunter instead and disappear into the darkside of railway modelling .

 

I don't remember Mr maunsell building locos with plastic bodies either!

 

Roger

[Charlie]

Doesn't that say something about Bachmann and Hornby's respective tooling principles though?

 

For both EMU's and 4-4-0's Bachmann have eschewed traction tyres and, in the case of the EMU's, have produced a more detailed model, cheaper with smoother rides. I can't remember what my Schools loco has ( I had issues with the tender wire) but you do have to wonder why Hornby seem to be lagging behind almost. Maybe that's not the right words but hope it makes some sorta sense.

[metadyneman]

Doesn't that say something about Bachmann and Hornby's respective tooling principles though?

 

For both EMU's and 4-4-0's Bachmann have eschewed traction tyres and, in the case of the EMU's, have produced a more detailed model, cheaper with smoother rides. I can't remember what my Schools loco has ( I had issues with the tender wire) but you do have to wonder why Hornby seem to be lagging behind almost. Maybe that's not the right words but hope it makes some sorta sense.

 

This is my point exactly, OK yes i admit the T9 and probably the Schools class may need a bit of rubber to get them to pull a scale length train, but lets be honest here, how many of us have layouts that will accommodate a scale length train? Bachmann have got the majority of their models spot on when it comes to traction and I will return to my original point which is, if Bachmann can produce a southern EMU without traction tyres, with every wheel on the train picking up current, and with a decent motor which can pull all four of the carriages without TRACTION TYRES! then why have we been foisted with what is basically a second rate piece of rubbish at a more expensive price from Hornby?

[Bill]

 

I don't remember Mr maunsell building locos with plastic bodies either!

 

Roger

 

True - But there is something about rubber on train wheels that simply turns me off - Then again I am probably nuts