PECO announces its entry into the TT gauge market

[Les1952]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Freightliner are using Class 66s in Poland , Germany and the Ukraine. I think DB Schenker have some in Eastern Europe too. These should be attractive to the core TT market. So should accompanying wagons

 

Beyond that, add a Class 150, a 56 , and some more ferrywagons (VIX anyone?)

 

There are over 100 Class 66s working in Germany, most of which have never been in the UK and this does not include Freightliner's examples.  The type is also used in France and I saw the outline of one in a yard somewhere between Milan and Verona in Northern Italy about a month ago.  However, this could have been one of the similar locos with air conditioning units built over the cab (but still within the European loading gauge) which I think are called class 77- European Cargo Rail bought 60 of these for use initially in France, and I'm sure they weren't the only customer.  These are spread more widely now.

 

All in all a widespread loco in Europe that should appeal to TT gauge modellers in quite a few countries.

 

Les

[Dava]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

We perhaps need to be realistic about what is possible

 

There is no way TT-120 will displace N. That battle was fought in the 1960s, when TT had a stronger position - and N rapidly swept TT into total commercial oblivion in every market in the free world

 

TT survived behind the Iron Curtain because it was already the designated smaller scale for model railways. Communism didn't do product competition - why produce N when we already have TT? So TT stayed in the 5 Year Plan , because the factory existed in the DDR. N gauge never happened.

 

Come 1990 and the Western RTR model railway manufacturers found a significant and resourceful TT user base who were committed to the scale and not interested in changing scale and switching to expensive box-opening

 

This will only ever be a niche scale, inhabited by people who want to do something a bit different. You will never get near the level of trade support enjoyed by N - never mind OO. That means TT-120 will have to be a more craft-based scale, using kits to fill out a limited range of RTR. Continental TT seems to have a more craft and cottage industry based culture than Continental HO and N

 

What has changed is that new technologies like 3D printing, laser cut , and downloadable files for printing at home make short-run products much more viable

 

This venture will attrct people who want to be different, do something novel, and are willing to make stuff . New scales usually do.

 

The one edge it may have is that it should be significantly easier to make stuff at home than it is in N

 

 

 Piko made N gauge in East Germany. I don’t know how much was sold there or exported to other markets.

 

The models were relatively crude compared to the Berliner Bahn TT trains which were better engineered and continued to develop to this day. I still have some track with the rail a U section folded alloy rail. 
 

Dava

[Ravenser]

25 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

In this country "this will only ever be a niche scale, inhabited by people who want to do something a bit different. You will never get near the level of trade support enjoyed by N - never mind OO. That means TT-120 will have to be a more craft-based scale, using kits to fill out a limited range of RTR. Continental TT seems to have a more craft and cottage industry based culture than Continental HO and N"

 

On the Continent there is a growing number of manufacturers supporting it, including Hornby group and Roco/Fleischmann (two of the three biggest manufacturers, the third being Trix/Marklin) and the "craft & cottage industry culture" could well be a UK based perception based on our limited knowledge of what actually happens in Continental modelling.

 

"The one edge it may have is that it should be significantly easier to make stuff at home than it is in N" - maybe, but you will need a bigger table......

Having said that I find it easier to make things in N than OO.

 

Les

 

 

I think you are slightly misrepresenting the position on the Continent.

 

TT runs a very weak fourth as a commercial scale there , after HO, N and O. It's heartland remains the former Soviet bloc. So far as I'm aware there is very little RTR in TT for French, Italian, Spanish, Benelux, Swiss  or Austrian outline, other than a handful of wagons - which work into Germany and Eastern Europe anyway. Put simply, trade support in TT doesn't currently allow you to model any Western European prototype .

 

This is probably the first serious attempt to take TT as a commercial scale outside its heartland in Mittel-Europa

 

I'm not up on RTR support for Czech or Polish railways in N . Possibly TT support runs it close. But except in a few niches, trade support for Continental N gauge far outruns that for TT, and where most countries are concerned , TT support is vestigal. TT is not making a serious challenge to RTR N as the second commercial gauge

 

Germanic HO seems to be very much a "box-opening" culture, and quite brand focussed. There seem to be relatively few roliing stock kits . There do seem to be quite a few small niche outfits and cottage-industry kit producers supporting Eastern European TT . The culture of the scale seems genuinely different from HO

 

And it will need to be like that in Britain if this initiative is to go anywhere. There will need to be kits - quite a few kits. Dare I suggest a modest range of Parkside wagon kits and something like the old Kitmaster coach kits in 3mm will be needed?

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

009 and O-16.5 have been fringe scale/gauges for many years, relying mainly on kits but bolstered by readily available N and OO chassis, wheels, scenic items, and of course Peco track.  Recently there has been some rtr activity in 009.  TT-120 has virtually no support for UK modellers - it's got a long way to go.......

Edited June 13, 2022 by Jeff Smith

[Phil Parker]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

And it will need to be like that in Britain if this initiative is to go anywhere. There will need to be kits - quite a few kits. Dare I suggest a modest range of Parkside wagon kits and something like the old Kitmaster coach kits in 3mm will be needed?

 

These already exist, but in 1:101 thanks to the efforts of the 3mm Society...

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Freightliner are using Class 66s in Poland , Germany and the Ukraine. I think DB Schenker have some in Eastern Europe too. These should be attractive to the core TT market. So should accompanying wagons

Ukraine ?

 

Are you sure, they would need to be regauged to Russian 5’ Ive not heard that.

[JohnR]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

 TT-120 has virtually no support for UK modellers - it's got a long way to go.......

 

Not surprising. Its barely a week old. 

[Hobby]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

TT runs a very weak fourth as a commercial scale there , after HO, N and O. It's heartland remains the former Soviet bloc.

 

That's true but in some respects it does TT a dis-service, over there, which remember isn't a thinly populated area, it's second to H0 in popularity, N never really took off and most modern modellers don't seem to think there's any point changing over now. In total production it's probably about level with Z, bearing in mind Z has quite a following in Japan and to a lesser extent, the USA. The big thing over there is the "cottage industry" surrounding it, when I've bought TT stuff in the Czech Republic virtually all the H0 stuff has been reproduced in TT leading to a massive amount of stuff. What I have noticed is that RTR TT has started to creep into West German model shops, not something I saw back in the 90s other than cheap secondhand (which was useful for my 00n3 modelling!).

Edited June 13, 2022 by Hobby

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

These already exist, but in 1:101 thanks to the efforts of the 3mm Society...

 

Which is really to say they don't exist as far as TT120 is concerned.  The scales are sufficiently different that mixing them will look very odd.

 

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Which is really to say they don't exist as far as TT120 is concerned.  The scales are sufficiently different that mixing them will look very odd.

 

 

With a linear difference of 20%, I'd consider that to be putting it very mildly!

 

[Pmorgancym]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

Not surprising. Its barely a week old. 

Also it's 00 you could argue is oversaturated, most of the mainstream rolling stock models are produces by one or more manufacturers.

I think a well done Pannier, Jinty, J94, or 37 would attract a lot of curiosity sales.

[whart57]

Getting back to the Railway Modeller pitch can we take anything from the fact they chose to reproduce a drawing of a Collett goods? Not the 14xx they had their 3D CAD guy knock up. Or the ubiquitous Pannier. I looked at it again this morning and I note that the chassis would be of very useful dimensions - 7'3" + 8'3" and 5' or so wheels. And didn't PECO produce one in N?

 

A working chassis would be just what the small scale 3D print people who market through Shapeways would need. The Collet wheelbase would suit Panniers, but also 0-6-0s and 0-6-0Ts of other companies. Not RTR but a way of rapidly expanding the range. Just so long as the Collet wasn't selected because the high pitched boiler and Belpaire firebox allows for extra space for motors.

[Golden Fleece 30]

11 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Not RTR but a way of rapidly expanding the range. Just so long as the Collet wasn't selected because the high pitched boiler and Belpaire firebox allows for extra space for motors.

Belpaire fireboxes are quite narrow as they turn in towards the frames. Fowler ones like the Patriot and Scot (before rebuilding) had sheeting that went straight down which did allow for a larger motor, proper shaped ones wont.

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

Getting back to the Railway Modeller pitch can we take anything from the fact they chose to reproduce a drawing of a Collett goods? Not the 14xx they had their 3D CAD guy knock up. Or the ubiquitous Pannier. I looked at it again this morning and I note that the chassis would be of very useful dimensions - 7'3" + 8'3" and 5' or so wheels. And didn't PECO produce one in N?

 

 

 

I rather get the impression that the trials and tribulations of the N gauge Collett Goods are one reason why Peco dont do locomotives. 

[Flying Pig]

I was going to say I'm feeling something of Fred Trueman's bafflement when a Chesterfield sofa materialised at Lords in The Hitch Hiker's Guide.  So I went looking for quotes and actually, I think this is more apt:

 

Quote

Unless something happens that we can't predict, I don't think a lot will happen.

 

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I rather get the impression that the trials and tribulations of the N gauge Collett Goods are one reason why Peco dont do locomotives. 

 

I'm sure there's some truth in that, but if they'd put the appropriate tender on it, (with DCC provision) I suspect it would have been a happier outcome all round.

 

(Edit - I'd forgotten that it did have DCC as standard).

Edited June 13, 2022 by Barry Ten

[luke_stevens]

50 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I'm sure there's some truth in that, but if they'd put the appropriate tender on it, (with DCC provision) I suspect it would have been a happier outcome all round.

 

Maybe if this time they subcontract to another manufacturer with more locomotive manufacturing experience? The old Peco N gauge Jubilee was made for them by Rivarossi but the Collet was an in house job? 

 

 

From Ramsay's Guide 8th Edition

 

Luke

Edited June 13, 2022 by luke_stevens

[luke_stevens]

To keep moving things forward:

 

The bogie wheelbase of a BR D800 warship 10'6" which is 3200mm which is exactly the same as a DB V200. The bogie centres are 37'9" which is almost exactly the correct 11,500mm. The wheel diameter is a little bigger on the D800 at 3'3" as opposed to the V200 950mm (3'1.5").

 

Hopefully close enough for a rebody? Or maybe that's Peco's idea? It would fit with the GWR theme and open wagons?

 

Luke

 

PS the Hymeks have the same bogie wheelbase but everything else is different!

[Tim Dubya]

Is there scope and a place for a TT 120 wishlist do you guys think? 

 

I don't know where it would go but it may be useful to anyone who can produce trains to the scale to know what we're after and in what volumes.

 

 

[luke_stevens]

4 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

Is there scope and a place for a TT 120 wishlist do you guys think? 

 

I don't know where it would go but it may be useful to anyone who can produce trains to the scale to know what we're after and in what volumes.

 

 

 

We have so little that anything would be good, but here goes.

Diesel BoBo

Diesel CoCo

Coaches - say Mk1's - 1 SK, SO, BFK

Steam Express passenger

Steam mixed traffic

Shunter steam or diesel

container flat

2 axle van / open

brake van

 

Luke

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

Is there scope and a place for a TT 120 wishlist do you guys think? 

 

I don't know where it would go but it may be useful to anyone who can produce trains to the scale to know what we're after and in what volumes.

 

 

It needs to be succinct and clear.

 

So

 

 

 

EVERYTHING, LOTS OF IT and NOW

[Flittersnoop]

7 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Not surprising. Its barely a week old. 

Peco didn't invent TT-120, did they? They're just making track that existing Eastern European models can run on.

 

In the current economic climate I don't think that there's a cat in Hades' chance of any company making any British outline RTR stock for TT-120.

 

[luke_stevens]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

EVERYTHING, LOTS OF IT and NOW

 

I was thinking the same...

 

Of course the Express Steam has to be live steam...

 

Luke

[luke_stevens]

2 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Peco didn't invent TT-120, did they? They're just making track that existing Eastern European models can run on.

 

In the current economic climate I don't think that there's a cat in Hades' chance of any company making any British outline RTR stock for TT-120.

 

 

Yes to your first point. I'm sure that is the purpose. 

 

I would think we'll get the 66/77 for the mainland market in UK liveries. And I think we'll get one loco. It's always easier to get investment approved for "new" things rather than replacing  existing.

 

Luke

 

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Peco didn't invent TT-120, did they? They're just making track that existing Eastern European models can run on.

 

 

TT-120 for British Outline has just been "invented" this last week. The TT that existed before on the continent wasnt called TT-120 - it was just TT. This whole thread is about what Peco have done.