Hornby cuts model shops' allocations of items due summer 2022

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Merchant Navy said:

I'm not the most well-informed on this subject...  Perhaps a boycott of new Hornby products is in order

 

You can make your own choices, as others will, but don't use RMweb as a platform for such.

[Flittersnoop]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

You can make your own choices, as others will, but don't use RMweb as a platform for such.

...don't use RMweb...    please?

 

Because we wouldn't want to upset Hornby by illustrating the strength of negative feeling that their actions have induced amongst their customers, not to mention the many retailers on RMweb, would we?

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

...don't use RMweb...    please?

 

Because we wouldn't want to upset Hornby by illustrating the strength of negative feeling that their actions have induced amongst their customers, not to mention the many retailers on RMweb, would we?

 

Open your eyes, nothing has been sanitised within these topics but I draw the line when someone who has little track record tries to start a ball rolling which will take up more of my, and Phil's, time to monitor. So, I take offence at your silly post and, thanks to trying to stir things up further, I will just remove your access to the topic thus saving some outside hours time.

 

Should have kept your head down.

[jjb1970]

I think we need to stay grounded in these discussions. One of my interests is Southern Railway, and for SR enthusiasts Hornby are pretty much essential. The re-built BoB/WC, air smoothed merchant navy, Schools, King Arthur, M7 and S15 are all superbly done. The rebuilt merchant navy and air smoothed BoB/WC could be improved on today but are still excellent models. The various Hornby SR coaches are superbly done and although models like the 2-BIL were part of the design clever idea they're still nice. So for me, whatever I might think about Hornby I'm not going to cut my nose off. And perhaps more than this I really don't wish Hornby ill, I want them to do well and to serve their customers with a good product, have a good relationship with dealers and to remain an anchor for the hobby.

For many years Hornby have been the hobby's equivalent of a soap opera, look at the interest in their accounts, the various management upheavals, share prices etc. With the exception of DJM no other company has come close to the sort of interest Hornby gets here. There's a lot to criticise and I'm guessing many of us could write an awful lot about what we think is wrong with Hornby, but for all that I am not anti-Hornby as such and genuinely do want them to turn around and address the various issues I could name. So no boycott for me and I'll keep buying their models when they are things I want even as I recognize some aspects of how they are doing things are not especially impressive.

[shunny]

While I do agree Hornby are making a bad habit of this and my local retailer has suffered the same as others with cuts in allocation and he is a tier 1. Hornby do themselves no favour with retailers by cutting allocations then still advertising on their own website.

A lot of current production is very limited and some larger retailers have been selling on day of announcement often before quantities have been given. The Bachmann SFX 47 being an example and again some Hornby products which quantities are unknown at release. 

It might be better for clarity if manufacturers have quantities ready on day of announcement and sent to retailers for clarity and in Hornby's case stick to them.

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think we need to stay grounded in these discussions. One of my interests is Southern Railway, and for SR enthusiasts Hornby are pretty much essential. The re-built BoB/WC, air smoothed merchant navy, Schools, King Arthur, M7 and S15 are all superbly done. The rebuilt merchant navy and air smoothed BoB/WC could be improved on today but are still excellent models. The various Hornby SR coaches are superbly done and although models like the 2-BIL were part of the design clever idea they're still nice. So for me, whatever I might think about Hornby I'm not going to cut my nose off. And perhaps more than this I really don't wish Hornby ill, I want them to do well and to serve their customers with a good product, have a good relationship with dealers and to remain an anchor for the hobby.

For many years Hornby have been the hobby's equivalent of a soap opera, look at the interest in their accounts, the various management upheavals, share prices etc. With the exception of DJM no other company has come close to the sort of interest Hornby gets here. There's a lot to criticise and I'm guessing many of us could write an awful lot about what we think is wrong with Hornby, but for all that I am not anti-Hornby as such and genuinely do want them to turn around and address the various issues I could name. So no boycott for me and I'll keep buying their models when they are things I want even as I recognize some aspects of how they are doing things are not especially impressive.

All that said, though, I (and probably others) have amassed all we need of the existing SR models and future purchases are looking very conditional irrespective of supply issues. I am offended by Hornby's treatment of their stockists, but don't really have anything to boycott if I thought that would achieve anything. I've stopped pre-ordering Hornby, though, purely because I no longer consider it worth the effort!🥸

 

I will be in the market for a couple more air-smoothed MN's if they do some that reflect their condition immediately prior to rebuilding, and maybe one more LN. Beyond those, the Maunsell dining saloons ticked most of my remaining empty boxes.

 

I'm therefore looking for announcements of items like an H16 tank, Urie S15, and one or more of the eclectic H15s in preference to upgrading Bulleids, which I can do for myself! There are, however, significant gaps in the range of base models. Notably wide-cab air-smoothed WC's with re-allocated narrow tenders (mainly in cut-down form) which became increasingly common from 1958 as rebuilding gathered pace. Also rebuilt WC's and/or MN's  with BR-rebodied 5250 gallon tenders.

 

John

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[MidlandRed]

Some of us like 9Fs as well - whilst some people have made a point in this thread of saying they would not order direct from Hornby on principle (effectively saying in not so many words they’re boycotting them) although maybe people are also, subconsciously objecting to the slightly higher non discounted price (for those who aren’t members of the collectors club). I guess those who want a 9F will have to (insert model of your choice in place of 9F, eg Black 5; A4 etc etc) - I viewed the price increase as relatively marginal. 
 

I just wonder whether, owing to the Titfield saga, in order to meet financial targets which would have included sales of the cancelled items they’ve been forced into activities like the subject of this thread (NB there are other Hornby ventilation of spleen threads available for that subject).

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Some of us like 9Fs as well - whilst some people have made a point in this thread of saying they would not order direct from Hornby on principle (effectively saying in not so many words they’re boycotting them) although maybe people are also, subconsciously objecting to the slightly higher non discounted price (for those who aren’t members of the collectors club). I guess those who want a 9F will have to (insert model of your choice in place of 9F, eg Black 5; A4 etc etc) - I viewed the price increase as relatively marginal. 
 

I just wonder whether, owing to the Titfield saga, in order to meet financial targets which would have included sales of the cancelled items they’ve been forced into activities like the subject of this thread (NB there are other Hornby ventilation of spleen threads available for that subject).

There's an easy solution to the 9F quandary, so long as you don't spend your time gazing at them from six inches away wearing reading glasses. 

 

For layout use, (assuming your layout isn't set on the Tyne Dock-Consett line) the existing Bachmann model is more than adequate. Robust, reliable and, once run-in, easily capable of handling trains of 50+ wagons. OK, the new Hornby ones will be a little more detailed but how much of that will be apparent from two feet away? I'll therefore not be replacing  my existing 9Fs and I don't need any more.

 

I rather hope that the loss of the (relatively niche) Titfield Thunderbolt products didn't trigger this fairly drastic action on Hornby's part. If it had, I'd be very concerned about the company's resilience.  

 

John

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[phil gollin]

39 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

....  I will be in the market for a couple more air-smoothed MN's if they do some that reflect their condition immediately prior to rebuilding, and maybe one more LN. Beyond those, the Maunsell dining saloons ticked most of my remaining empty boxes.

 

I'm therefore looking for announcements of items like an H16 tank, Urie S15, and one or more of the eclectic H15s in preference to upgrading Bulleids, which I can do for myself! There are, however, significant gaps in the range of base models. Notably wide-cab air-smoothed WC's with re-allocated narrow tenders (mainly in cut-down form) which became increasingly common from 1958 as rebuilding gathered pace. Also rebuilt WC's and/or MN's  with BR-rebodied 5250 gallon tenders.

 

John

.

 

Yes, but you forgot the 4-CORs, or 4-SUBs, and some pre-grouping 4-4-0s

 

Always room for some more "Southern" locos.

 

.

Edited July 14, 2022 by phil gollin

[Bob83a]

If I was  retailer and my allocation was likely to be low (one seems to be common) the I would not be able to justify the cost of advertising a model. It would even be costly to put the item on our website. I would probably just take what I recieve and put it on the counter for first come first served.

 

Because allocations are being cut after orders have gone in than I would probably say i would not bother with pre-orders and only sell what I can actually get in stock.

 

Is there any significance in Hornby cutting allocations to just one, is it possible (am i just being cynical) that this is just so that they can say  the item is available from retailers in their advertising. If they are going direct only then they should just say so and do it.

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Yes, but you forgot the 4-SUBs and some pre-grouping 4-4-0s

 

Always room for some more "Southern" locos.

 

.

I didn't forget, my comments reflected what I would buy.

 

I don't model "the juice" and most of the pre-grouping 4-4-0s were gone by my period.

 

John

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[MidlandRed]

34 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There's an easy solution to the 9F quandary, so long as you don't spend your time gazing at them from six inches away wearing reading glasses. 

 

For layout use, (assuming your layout isn't set on the Tyne Dock-Consett line) the existing Bachmann model is more than adequate. Robust, reliable and, once run-in, easily capable of handling trains of 50+ wagons. OK, the new Hornby ones will be a little more detailed but how much of that will be apparent from two feet away? I'll therefore not be replacing  my existing 9Fs and I don't need any more.

 

John

I agree the Bachmann 9F is nice. However, this is like saying to fans and purchasers of the recently delivered Deltic models, you didn’t really need those - there was a reasonable model already available (yes I know they haven’t committed unspeakably poor activities against retailers - although it has to be said some are not only retailers but competitors in some respects).
 

I don’t have any 9Fs currently - and definitely not a Saltley mechanical stoker one!! 
 

As a fan of 9Fs, I think it’s great Hornby are producing a retooled version - I certainly won’t be boycotting it!!! I also happen to like especially their more recent steam loco models. It would be the same if I wanted a Black 5, HD A4 etc. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by MidlandRed

[SHMD]

Hornby have broken my "must have" mentality - once again!

(The first time was when I realised that they were putting the wrong bogies under different diesels.)

 

I don't even (hardly ever did) look at their website and now, for once in my life, I know what New Years resolution I will make - and be able to keep.

 

 

Kev.

(Although I don't wish them ill-well, as such, I really do hope the management changes...)

((I also hope that at the next exhibition they go to, and have pre ordered let's say 20 square meters of space, when they get there they are just allocated 1 meter squared - and see how they like it / can run a business,))

 

[jjb1970]

The thing that I have never understood about the stock allocation is why in today's world it is a problem. Surely Hornby can apply one of two basic principles:

 

-Circulate order details with a cut off and then manufacture what is ordered, and maybe make a few more to cover the 'buyers remorse' orders; or

-Order X from the factory, which are allocated to dealers on a first come basis with a percentage ring fenced for their own web shop.

 

In either case there would be no reason not to ship models ordered by retailers or customers. With not at all modern IT this should be very simple, businesses were doing it decades ago. I know for a while Hornby basically lost control of their whole supply chain and were struggling to get products to sell after the demise of SK, but they got over that, now it should be a matter of managing an order system.

 

I must admit, I don't consider myself to be anti-Hornby (despite having an awful lot of criticisms of their current direction) but I get completely why retailers are angry and why customers get upset if they order in good faith from a good retailer only to be told the retailer has been let down by Hornby. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, shunny said:

While I do agree Hornby are making a bad habit of this and my local retailer has suffered the same as others with cuts in allocation and he is a tier 1. Hornby do themselves no favour with retailers by cutting allocations then still advertising on their own website.

A lot of current production is very limited and some larger retailers have been selling on day of announcement often before quantities have been given. The Bachmann SFX 47 being an example and again some Hornby products which quantities are unknown at release. 

It might be better for clarity if manufacturers have quantities ready on day of announcement and sent to retailers for clarity and in Hornby's case stick to them.

I see nothing wrong with retailers seelking pre-orders at an early stage from their customers because they then know what they need to prder .  But I see a lot out of kilter if Hornby are accepting orders from retailers for more models than they will have available.  Generally the orders are placed in January so why has it taken six months fora retailer to be told that he will not get what he/she ordered - surely that information would (should) have been available the day the order was accepted by Hornby?  

 

That ain't rocket science - selling more than you actually have to offer might give nice juicy headline numbers about a high level of orders but that is meaningless if it those orders are never delivered.  Hornby either order from factories before announcement (how else could they advertise the date when the goods will be available - in normal circumstances) so they now exactly how many whatevers they have available to sell.  Or they order after they have taken trade orders so they order whatever the trade has ordered plus what they want for direct sales (possibly with an allowance for cancelled orders or an allowance the other way to cater for late end customer interest).  The latter of course means they can't give a delivery date in their catalogue but that's hardly the end of the world for most purchasers.

 

So I continue to remain puzzled why they seem to be forever cutting retailer allocations and not delivering what the retailers have ordered.    Is it down to incompetence, ineffective systems for managing orders, poor market intelligence regarding the likely popularity of certain models,  poor understanding of how the retail trade market works, or is there some other reason?   And how come it is really noticeable with Hornby but not with any other brand or is it because we care more about Hornby?  I wonder how many retailers have had 'allocations' from other brands six months after they placed their orders instead of being only allowed to order a restricted number in the first place?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

Some of us like 9Fs as well - whilst some people have made a point in this thread of saying they would not order direct from Hornby on principle (effectively saying in not so many words they’re boycotting them) although maybe people are also, subconsciously objecting to the slightly higher non discounted price (for those who aren’t members of the collectors club). I guess those who want a 9F will have to (insert model of your choice in place of 9F, eg Black 5; A4 etc etc) - I viewed the price increase as relatively marginal. 
 

I just wonder whether, owing to the Titfield saga, in order to meet financial targets which would have included sales of the cancelled items they’ve been forced into activities like the subject of this thread (NB there are other Hornby ventilation of spleen threads available for that subject).

Maybe some of us - who still have such establishments available to them - just want to buy bigger ticket items from our 'local' retailers alongside things like tins of paint, rail joiners, magazines, books, rolling stock, and kits, in order to help support their business and cash flow?

 

I currently have several Rapido items, including a loco. order with my most 'local' retailer - only one hour's drive away.  If Hornby were to introduce something that is appropriate to my modelling interests it would eithetr be ordered from him or my other 'local' retailer who is actually several (quite large) counties away.

[MikeB]

I agree that Hornby drastically cutting orders from retailers is unacceptable and there should either be a cut-off date for pre-orders, which helps determine the number of items manufactured, or retailers are given a first allocation for pre-orders with the proviso that more may or may not be available later.

However, I've been thinking about pre-orders and retailers.  Why pre-order from a retailer and not the manufacturer?  What added value does the retailer offer the customer?  The traditional role of a shop having inventory and providing the opportunity to discover, see and possibly try before purchase is not relevant for many people since the lack of local model shops in many areas means mail order is the norm. In any case, pre-orders are by definition purchases with the item unseen, except as CAD impressions or pictures during development. A retailer may offer a lower price, better packaging and delivery options or a smoother ordering system. Individuals may want to support a favourite and trusted retailer. In the event of problems, will a retailer be more helpful or will the item need to go back to the manufacturer anyway for repair or replacement?  Manufacturers and distributors do not sell at less than RRP so as to not undercut their dealers, but an online only manufacturer could sell for less and still make a reasonable return.

 

 On line and direct sales  are growing everywhere (books, groceries, clothes, cars, e-Bay) where customers know what they want and are prepared to buy items without seeing the physical item first, why are model railways different?  

 

I have no answers just some thoughts...

[Helmdon]

1 minute ago, MikeB said:

I agree that Hornby drastically cutting orders from retailers is unacceptable and there should either be a cut-off date for pre-orders, which helps determine the number of items manufactured, or retailers are given a first allocation for pre-orders with the proviso that more may or may not be available later.

However, I've been thinking about pre-orders and retailers.  Why pre-order from a retailer and not the manufacturer?  What added value does the retailer offer the customer?  The traditional role of a shop having inventory and providing the opportunity to discover, see and possibly try before purchase is not relevant for many people since the lack of local model shops in many areas means mail order is the norm. In any case, pre-orders are by definition purchases with the item unseen, except as CAD impressions or pictures during development. A retailer may offer a lower price, better packaging and delivery options or a smoother ordering system. Individuals may want to support a favourite and trusted retailer. In the event of problems, will a retailer be more helpful or will the item need to go back to the manufacturer anyway for repair or replacement?  Manufacturers and distributors do not sell at less than RRP so as to not undercut their dealers, but an online only manufacturer could sell for less and still make a reasonable return.

 

 On line and direct sales  are growing everywhere (books, groceries, clothes, cars, e-Bay) where customers know what they want and are prepared to buy items without seeing the physical item first, why are model railways different?  

 

I have no answers just some thoughts...

 

and with that post, the nail is hit on the head by the elephant in the room

 

[Robin Brasher]

As Hornby do not seem to restrict the number of sales from their website, don't charge for postage on expensive items and honour the price at the time of the order it would make sense to order directly from Hornby. If the price goes up by more than 10% after making the order it is cheaper to buy from Hornby

 

Despite this I am still ordering directly from my model shop on a preserved railway as I it will not get damaged in the post and I can take the model back if it is faulty.

 

I think Hornby provide more models that I like than anyone else.  They have a good range of coaches and Southern engines. A good test of a model is if it appeals to someone outside their main interest.  For me these include the Coronation coaches and 'Golden Fleece' and 'City of London' for nostalgic reasons as models of the same prototypes as Hornby Dublo models. 

 

I don't like the way Hornby treats its retailers  but if Hornby is the only firm that provides what I want I will continue to buy from them

 

I

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I see nothing wrong with retailers seelking pre-orders at an early stage from their customers because they then know what they need to prder .  But I see a lot out of kilter if Hornby are accepting orders from retailers for more models than they will have available.  Generally the orders are placed in January so why has it taken six months fora retailer to be told that he will not get what he/she ordered - surely that information would (should) have been available the day the order was accepted by Hornby? 

 

I don't go along with those who say we should boycott them because of this, indeed I will still buy their products if they produce something I want.  However I do think such unusual management practice gives me grounds to boycott their shares as an investment.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, MikeB said:

I agree that Hornby drastically cutting orders from retailers is unacceptable and there should either be a cut-off date for pre-orders, which helps determine the number of items manufactured, or retailers are given a first allocation for pre-orders with the proviso that more may or may not be available later.

However, I've been thinking about pre-orders and retailers.  Why pre-order from a retailer and not the manufacturer?  What added value does the retailer offer the customer?  The traditional role of a shop having inventory and providing the opportunity to discover, see and possibly try before purchase is not relevant for many people since the lack of local model shops in many areas means mail order is the norm. In any case, pre-orders are by definition purchases with the item unseen, except as CAD impressions or pictures during development. A retailer may offer a lower price, better packaging and delivery options or a smoother ordering system. Individuals may want to support a favourite and trusted retailer. In the event of problems, will a retailer be more helpful or will the item need to go back to the manufacturer anyway for repair or replacement?  Manufacturers and distributors do not sell at less than RRP so as to not undercut their dealers, but an online only manufacturer could sell for less and still make a reasonable return.

 

 On line and direct sales  are growing everywhere (books, groceries, clothes, cars, e-Bay) where customers know what they want and are prepared to buy items without seeing the physical item first, why are model railways different?  

 

I have no answers just some thoughts...

So it would seem that Hornby - exactly like my most local model shop -  somehow test any and every loco I buy in my presence to ensure that it is functioning correctly' and has all parts present before I even pay for it.  Or if there is a problem with a loco etc from my rather less local retailer it is exchanged virtually by return of post if I encounter a problem with it.  It is reassuring to learn that Hornby, or rather their contractor. also offer a similar level of service although past posts on RMweb suggest this is not always (ever?) the case.

 

 if Hornby are really serious about having a direct sales operation for model railways, particularly locos, they need to start by looking at how it is done by the current online/mail order retailers, and other manufacturers/commissioners.  It is an area where detail, detail, detail can really make a significant difference.

 

Sorry to be  a tad cynical but the retailers I deal with offer a level of service and a range of model railway/railway related items which puts Hornby to shame even when it's offering everything its catalogue for direct sale.  I will not put their continuation in business at risk simply to buy direct from - in this instance - Hornby when the results can be far worse should there be any problem with the item I buy.  It really is that simple for me because I have no wish to cut off my nose to spite my face.

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, MikeB said:

I agree that Hornby drastically cutting orders from retailers is unacceptable and there should either be a cut-off date for pre-orders, which helps determine the number of items manufactured, or retailers are given a first allocation for pre-orders with the proviso that more may or may not be available later.

However, I've been thinking about pre-orders and retailers.  Why pre-order from a retailer and not the manufacturer?  What added value does the retailer offer the customer?  The traditional role of a shop having inventory and providing the opportunity to discover, see and possibly try before purchase is not relevant for many people since the lack of local model shops in many areas means mail order is the norm. In any case, pre-orders are by definition purchases with the item unseen, except as CAD impressions or pictures during development. A retailer may offer a lower price, better packaging and delivery options or a smoother ordering system. Individuals may want to support a favourite and trusted retailer. In the event of problems, will a retailer be more helpful or will the item need to go back to the manufacturer anyway for repair or replacement?  Manufacturers and distributors do not sell at less than RRP so as to not undercut their dealers, but an online only manufacturer could sell for less and still make a reasonable return.

 

 On line and direct sales  are growing everywhere (books, groceries, clothes, cars, e-Bay) where customers know what they want and are prepared to buy items without seeing the physical item first, why are model railways different?  

 

I have no answers just some thoughts...

 

This has probably been the big debate in retail for over twenty years, and there are businesses who seem to do pretty well by adopting a direct sales model. I think the problem with Hornby is they want to develop their direct sales model while still expecting retailers to buy stock in the conventional way and act as a store front. Whether or not I agree or not I can see the logic of moving to direct sales, it might work or it might not but clearly there is an argument for it (just as there is a counter argument). People are criticising Hornby because they seem to be treating their dealers shoddily, after the current management team made some noise about support for dealers when they took over. And in some cases it gets more complicated if retailers are also model makers themselves and potential (or actual) competitors. 

[ruggedpeak]

42 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

So it would seem that Hornby - exactly like my most local model shop -  somehow test any and every loco I buy in my presence to ensure that it is functioning correctly' and has all parts present before I even pay for it.  Or if there is a problem with a loco etc from my rather less local retailer it is exchanged virtually by return of post if I encounter a problem with it.  It is reassuring to learn that Hornby, or rather their contractor. also offer a similar level of service although past posts on RMweb suggest this is not always (ever?) the case.

 

 if Hornby are really serious about having a direct sales operation for model railways, particularly locos, they need to start by looking at how it is done by the current online/mail order retailers, and other manufacturers/commissioners.  It is an area where detail, detail, detail can really make a significant difference.

 

Sorry to be  a tad cynical but the retailers I deal with offer a level of service and a range of model railway/railway related items which puts Hornby to shame even when it's offering everything its catalogue for direct sale.  I will not put their continuation in business at risk simply to buy direct from - in this instance - Hornby when the results can be far worse should there be any problem with the item I buy.  It really is that simple for me because I have no wish to cut off my nose to spite my face.

Exactly, I only pre-order via my retailer for the reasons above and more. Having run a mail order business myself for many years (out of my garage!) and experienced many excellent retailers in the model railway business it is safe to say Hornby are sadly a long way off the mark in terms of mail order service.

[F-UnitMad]

This made me laugh, to be honest. How does one boycott products that you can't get hold of anyway??

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, F-UnitMad said:

This made me laugh, to be honest. How does one boycott products that you can't get hold of anyway??

you can't but at least it allows you to be outraged on social media!!