Hornby cuts model shops' allocations of items due summer 2022

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

We seem to have strayed from quantity into quality and the topic raised was very clearly about quantities not being available.

Quite agree however I think a point has been made somewhere  in this thread that one potential reason for Hornby 'allocating' models might be because when the goods arrive a percentage of what was ordered is found to be unsuitable for sale due to faults or assembly errors.

 

Thus shortcomings from the quality standard ordered from the factory might have a bearing on the reduction in quantity being mad available to retailers.   A couple of 'mights' in their but 'quality' in the sense of failure to meet spec could possibly potentially be an issue?

[Oldddudders]

13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Quite agree however I think a point has been made somewhere  in this thread that one potential reason for Hornby 'allocating' models might be because when the goods arrive a percentage of what was ordered is found to be unsuitable for sale due to faults or assembly errors.

 

Thus shortcomings from the quality standard ordered from the factory might have a bearing on the reduction in quantity being mad available to retailers.   A couple of 'mights' in their but 'quality' in the sense of failure to meet spec could possibly potentially be an issue?

That does imply a decent level of product inspection by Hornby on arrival, which is not what others have suggested in the past. 

[Matt C]

SO yet again a possible c*&k up in ordering, rather than a factory not supplying what WAS  ordered ?

I've yet to see proof in any instance of a factory failing to supply a quantity that was ordered. Yet this keeps being put forward as a 'possible' reason for cancellation of pre orders 

 

 

[MidlandRed]

27 minutes ago, Matt C said:

SO yet again a possible c*&k up in ordering, rather than a factory not supplying what WAS  ordered ?

I've yet to see proof in any instance of a factory failing to supply a quantity that was ordered. Yet this keeps being put forward as a 'possible' reason for cancellation of pre orders 

 

 

Interesting - a Hatton’s model supply issue in a Hornby thread 🤣🤣🤣 I’m not sure Mr Kohler and Ms Montana had anything to do with that one (presuming they did with the now rather yawn yawn old news issue which is the subject of this thread). 
 

I guess hell hath no fury like modellers (on behalf of an anonymous retailer or retailers scorned) 😂 noting even other manufacturer’s reps wading into the somewhat OT tangents and discussions in this thread - it’s very entertaining though 😀l

 

Seriously though, this thread has more tangents than one of my senior school trigonometry exams!!! 

Edited September 27, 2022 by MidlandRed

[Matt C]

9 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Interesting - a Hatton’s model supply issue in a Hornby thread 🤣🤣🤣 I’m not sure Mr Kohler and Ms Montana had anything to do with that one (presuming they did with the now rather yawn yawn old news issue which is the subject of this thread). 
 

I guess hell hath no fury like modellers (on behalf of an anonymous retailer or retailers scorned) 😂 noting even other manufacturer’s reps wading into the somewhat OT tangents and discussions in this thread - it’s very entertaining though 😀l

 

Seriously though, this thread has more tangents than one of my senior school trigonometry exams!!! 

 

This topic has gone round in ever decreasing circles . . BUT it HAS touched on Quantities ordered vs Quantities delivered from various factories and The Hattons Topic above has been mentioned in this topic re the same subject, as PROOF ! that a factory under delivered ( even though it now apears to be due to a missunderstanding/ error in adding up pre orders ) so Quoting THAT topic/ subject here is entirely reasonable 😋

[Bernard Lamb]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That comes back to the specification.  If something is specified in detail to the factory then that is what they are being contracted to supply.  If the detail is not specified and someone for example uses a generic trade term (e.g. mazak) then the factory has room within the specification to use a material which conforms with that trade name but might well not reach a particular quality standard.

 

One of the first things you learn on any quality or specification training course is that you will get what you ask for and if you don't specify exactly what you want you might get something which is not quite the same.  There is the well known (to some of us) story about a Japanese company which took on a contract which specified that at least 97% of the items being ordered should fully comply with the specification.  The factory accordingly supplied 3% of the items as not wholly complying with the specification with the other 97% being 100% compatible with spec - that was exactly what had been specified.

 

The secret is invariably in the detail and extent of the specification because 'quality' of itself is a meaningless word.  For example the usual mechanism for model locos manufactured in China is to use a series of moulded gear wheels to transmit the drive from the motor to the axles with all  driving axles driven on a steam outline model.  That is what you will get unless you specify worm and gear drive onto one axle with the drive transmitted to other wheelsets by coupling rods.  Similarly if a metal is used to add weight etc to a model it should be specified as being of a certain quality or composition otherwise the factory will no doubt use what it can get at 'best price'.

 

It ain't rocket science but it is crucially important that the customer is both careful and exact in their specification and that they carefully check  and reject any CADs, EPs, livery samples, and so on which do not meet their spec.

The Chinese it woud seem have a better understanding of the English language than the people who wrote it have.

Bernard

[simmo009]

But if there is a shortfall on the ordered quantity, for whatever reason, why are retailer orders being unfulfilled,  when seemingly there is plenty of stock to sell direct? Surely it is Hornby's interest to move the stock out and receive the money, than have the stock on shelves in a warehouse?  I am sure that a significant percentage of the pre-orders with retailers will not revert to a direct sale, thus negating the seeming benefit of receiving the retailers margin. For instance, sell 10 of a model to a store @ £150.00, £1500 in the bank. You need to sell 6 at £250 direct full rrp for the same income,  which may well be spread out over the next year. Quite a few people are just choosing not to buy if their pre-order cannot be fulfilled by there chosen supplier. I have no skin in the game, but I do have 2 pre-orders direct with Hornby, as my local shop advised me I would have a better chance of getting them than through him. Plus with the honouring of prices at order date, I feel a bit happier every time a price increase is announced. Incidentally, isn't this the time of year they usually do an increase? 

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, simmo009 said:

for the same income, 

 

Don't think revenue, think profit.

[ruggedpeak]

9 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

That does imply a decent level of product inspection by Hornby on arrival, which is not what others have suggested in the past. 

Ironically a service that a number of smaller but discerning retailers provide with testing of loco's prior to despatch. One assumes Hornby don't do this with direct sales?

[Andy Hayter]

Hornby do not dispatch locos.  Their warehouse does but they are not a model shop.

[Fishoutofwater]

20 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Ironically a service that a number of smaller but discerning retailers provide with testing of loco's prior to despatch. One assumes Hornby don't do this with direct sales?

One assumption is that stock arrives at warehouse in container direct from ship and is despatched to retailers / customers direct from there. Hornby staff would never see the vast majority of stock, let alone quality check it. Warehouse staff would not do QC.

[jjb1970]

3 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Ironically a service that a number of smaller but discerning retailers provide with testing of loco's prior to despatch. One assumes Hornby don't do this with direct sales?

 

Part of the service you get from a good shop, one of the details to consider when choosing a vendor. That said, although I value this service I have known people who wanted their models to untouched after being packed at the factory as unpacking them was seen as part of the pleasure. Horses for courses I guess.

[jjb1970]

4 hours ago, Fishoutofwater said:

One assumption is that stock arrives at warehouse in container direct from ship and is despatched to retailers / customers direct from there. Hornby staff would never see the vast majority of stock, let alone quality check it. Warehouse staff would not do QC.

 

I don't know about models, but I do know that in other industries QA/QC is one of the great hidden costs of doing business. And in some ways it's a gamble, first class QA/QC doesn't make any difference to the product if the factory is producing to the required standard. It's very common to have a choice of buying a product which has gone though a rigorous inspection and test process, or the exact same product without those checks. The difference in price can be enormous, so do you take a gamble and buy cheap, or pay $$$$s for something which may offer no real benefit?

I used to work for a classification society (a maritime organization which approves the design of ships and their systems, surveys them during construction and through life), we approved engine designs and did surveys at the engine works, in the yards etc during manufacture and installation on-board then through life. In some cases the same engines were being manufactured for power generation, railways etc with none of that assurance (I might add classification is mandatory in the marine industry). The engines were the same. You don't get a better engine because it has all the necessary certificates from LR, DNV, ClassNK, ABS, CCS or whichever society did the approvals. What you do get is a much higher degree of traceability on materials and components, independent QA checks etc. For most engines most of the time it makes no difference whatsoever, but it's a bit like insurance in that when something does go wrong it makes a lot of difference.

I'm guessing each model manufacturer will agree its own level of QA/QC with the factories, it's a commercial decision whether to reduce cost and take a risk that X% possible returns is an acceptable cost, or pay more to lower X% down to y% possible returns. Usually factories are happy to work with their customers, but there is a cost to QA/QC and it is for the customer to make a decision what they are comfortable with.

[jjb1970]

10 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Interesting - a Hatton’s model supply issue in a Hornby thread 🤣🤣🤣 I’m not sure Mr Kohler and Ms Montana had anything to do with that one (presuming they did with the now rather yawn yawn old news issue which is the subject of this thread). 
 

I guess hell hath no fury like modellers (on behalf of an anonymous retailer or retailers scorned) 😂 noting even other manufacturer’s reps wading into the somewhat OT tangents and discussions in this thread - it’s very entertaining though 😀l

 

Seriously though, this thread has more tangents than one of my senior school trigonometry exams!!! 

 

If it's a thread you find uninteresting or boring then my advice is to not read it. Either ignore it or don't bother opening it. I've no idea how many threads there are on RMWeb but we can only read a small percentage because it just wouldn't be possible to read all of them, and I suspect all of us would find a high percentage of them to be uninteresting. Given that, why waste time looking at stuff you don't enjoy when that time could be used to better effect and more enjoyably? It seems plenty of members do find this thread interesting and enjoy the discussion so why not leave them to continue and go and enjoy threads you like?

[wagonbasher]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I don't know about models, but I do know that in other industries QA/QC is one of the great hidden costs of doing business. And in some ways it's a gamble, first class QA/QC doesn't make any difference to the product if the factory is producing to the required standard. It's very common to have a choice of buying a product which has gone though a rigorous inspection and test process, or the exact same product without those checks. The difference in price can be enormous, so do you take a gamble and buy cheap, or pay $$$$s for something which may offer no real benefit?

I used to work for a classification society (a maritime organization which approves the design of ships and their systems, surveys them during construction and through life), we approved engine designs and did surveys at the engine works, in the yards etc during manufacture and installation on-board then through life. In some cases the same engines were being manufactured for power generation, railways etc with none of that assurance (I might add classification is mandatory in the marine industry). The engines were the same. You don't get a better engine because it has all the necessary certificates from LR, DNV, ClassNK, ABS, CCS or whichever society did the approvals. What you do get is a much higher degree of traceability on materials and components, independent QA checks etc. For most engines most of the time it makes no difference whatsoever, but it's a bit like insurance in that when something does go wrong it makes a lot of difference.

I'm guessing each model manufacturer will agree its own level of QA/QC with the factories, it's a commercial decision whether to reduce cost and take a risk that X% possible returns is an acceptable cost, or pay more to lower X% down to y% possible returns. Usually factories are happy to work with their customers, but there is a cost to QA/QC and it is for the customer to make a decision what they are comfortable with.

CE is a European declaration of a pre determined standard.  CA/Uk is the new replacement for products sold in the UK, A product May show both if offered for sale in both.  There are products that must conform to these standards to be offered for sale in either the EU or the Uk and there are products that are not required to meet these standards. In our case model railways are required to carry that standard for the safety of toys and electrical equipment.  These are predetermined  standards specific to that category.  They are not a measure of general quality only that the product conforms to the requirement of those standards.   So the quality of a locomotives paint finish, accuracy of colour will not be covered but that the paint would be free from toxins etc would.  Hope that helps, it’s a big topic.

 

Andy

[john new]

On 28/07/2022 at 18:34, john new said:

Today's dilemma - I see Hornby still have the Rowntrees Ruston available for pre-order and now stated as for this Autumn (I had it on pre-order before but that order got cancelled by the dealer). I would rather buy from a dealer with a proper bricks and mortar shop rather than direct from Hornby but cannot guarantee if I do that they will get a delivery! We are being forced into the buy direct route. Looks like, whether I want to or not, that it will have to be a Hornby direct order or no loco. Not fair on dealers, and I am not happy.

 

16 months on and still no Rowntrees Ruston despite it being on Hornby's release list.  Ho Hum, maybe it will be out before Christmas but I am not holding my breath!

[acg5324]

1 hour ago, john new said:

16 months on and still no Rowntrees Ruston despite it being on Hornby's release list.  Ho Hum, maybe it will be out before Christmas but I am not holding my breath!

I think we have seen February for this.