Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[t-b-g]

30 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I think that the opposite may be the case, in that some people build "exhibition" layouts but don't base them on any particular prototype location, track layout and design, running/operating practises, signalling, etc. When much of what many modellers use are RTR/RTP products, they are restricted by what is available off the shelf/online or they have collected over the years.

 

My own layout wasn't of a prototypical location but used trackwork based upon the designs of the prototype railway in the period modelled, as were the signalling (planned by the author of the book on that specific subject), buildings, and stock. The only thing I couldn't accurately replicate were the Edwardian operation practises. However, we found that at most exhibitions, the viewers didn't know either and were mainly interested in just seeing trains run.

 

That was probably the reason why layouts such as Stoke Summit always attracted a good crowd.

 

I thought that the original London Road as a terminus was right up there with the very best layouts to watch at a show. You could lean on the barrier for ages and never be 100% sure what was going to happen next. Would another train arrive, would one depart, or would the station pilot fuss around with a van or a horsebox?

 

It also gave the viewer plenty of time to examine the superb locos and stock as they stayed on view for quite a while.

 

I like the later through station version but to me, it has rather lost those two elements that made the terminus a real favourite of mine.

 

I understand that many people just want to see trains go by but that isn't really what draws me in to spend a long time watching.

[AY Mod]

8 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Sounds a llittle reminiscent of Walker Marine?

 

A bit of old video.

 

 

 

How video standards have moved on in 15 years!

[boxbrownie]

I don’t know what the fuss is about, skim reading admittedly.

 

I have no great, or almost any knowledge of how real railway regulations stipulate operation but I love fine detailing even down to trying to get a moustache even on a station master (and that’s getting almost impossible nowadays for me) but I still have no signals on my layout, everything else is about finished but does it bother me? No…..why should it, I love modelling not running trains to strict prototype standards, TBH I think that would be incredibly boring in as much as there would be massive gaps between operation and movements. 
 

When I went to shows it was the detail and some truly amazing feats of modelling prowess that impressed, not how well the chap driving did.

 

All just IMO of course.

[Erichill16]

The issue with  private layouts is just that. They are made to suit the ownersinterest and space and he (or she) brings it to the exhibition for no financial gain and could well go home with damage to repair. 
In fact some owners wont even take expenses, and will go home out of pocket for the benefit of the hosting club. 
You cant grumble at what they bring.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Erichill16
Add final paragraph

[bradfordbuffer]

38 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

That's the one! (Not a steelworks...)

Hull club? Multi level with incline to link, helped out at a show for a few hrs....I sneaked off from helping newbryford slave driver! WM was a very absorbing operational layout lots of places to go with your shunting loco

[Phatbob]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 modellers are 'amatuers' with differing skillsets of which operating may not be the foremost.

 

Ageed.  Don't forget, Noah was an 'amatuer'.  The Titanic was built and run by 'professionals'. ;-)

Never underestimate keen 'amatuers' and 'blokes in sheds'.
 

[boxbrownie]

21 minutes ago, Phatbob said:

 

Never underestimate keen 'amatuers' and 'blokes in sheds'.
 

Which is why plasters come in assorted sizes.

[t-b-g]

54 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

The issue with  private layouts is just that. They are made to suit the ownersinterest and space and he (or she) brings it to the exhibition for no financial gain and could well go home with damage to repair. 
In fact some owners wont even take expenses, and will go home out of pocket for the benefit of the hosting club. 
You cant grumble at what they bring.

 

There is a lot of sense in what you say. There are lots of shows and if only top drawer, superbly operated layouts were invited, there wouldn't be enough to go round. When a really good layout appears on the circuit, it often receives lots of invitations and can become almost too exposed, as it tends to appear at lots of events for the next couple of years.

 

In a way, there is a bit of "supply and demand" at play. If a layout isn't much good, it probably won't be invited to many shows. If an exhibition gets a reputation for being a bit average in terms of quality, then the people who are a bit more discerning tend to not go back.

 

If I go to a show with, say, 20 layouts and there are more than one or two that hold my attention for more than a couple of minutes, then that is a win for me. Whether that time be in studying the construction, presentation, control systems or the locos and stock, rather than the operation, that is fine by me.

 

Exhibiting is very rewarding but it is also very time consuming and can be quite hard work. So I am quite happy to cut some slack to those good folk who load their layouts up on a Friday and take them out for us to see.

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

If I go to a show with, say, 20 layouts and there are more than one or two that hold my attention for more than a couple of minutes, then that is a win for me. Whether that time be in studying the construction, presentation, control systems or the locos and stock, rather than the operation, that is fine by me.

 

I always look for one I would like to build. If it's a difficult choice then that's a good show. Having said that, I think it's possible to get something out of every layout at an event, even if it's spotting something not to do!

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Hull club? Multi level with incline to link, helped out at a show for a few hrs....I sneaked off from helping newbryford slave driver! WM was a very absorbing operational layout lots of places to go with your shunting loco

BRM March 99

Edited October 25, 2022 by bradfordbuffer

[bradfordbuffer]

1 minute ago, bradfordbuffer said:

BRM March 99

 

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, Grovenor said:

When I see a layout with sidings and facilities that just have some stock parked while the trains run round and round then I tend to assume that either the points are unreliable or the operators can't be bothered to use them. But there are layouts where the sidings etc do get used as they should be and those are the ones I linger at.

 

I doubt that unreliable point operation is all that common a problem, rather I think the layouts where operators apparently can't be bothered to shunt the sidings (yes, probably most of them) are down to other issues:

• a widespread belief that most punters know nowt about railways and just want to see trains running through
• the difficulties of coupling and uncoupling wagons where it should happen and in an appropriate manner, given the various types of (unrealistic) coupling mechanisms that commonly tend to be used on models
• understaffing, or part of the "operating team" doing things other than actually engaging in operation - mending failed locos/discussing some detail with a visitor/gone to the bar or to look round the rest of the show etc.  Not that there is anything wrong with these activities, but they can contribute to unimpressive operation.

 

 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

At one show where I exhibited a layout, one of my operator friends went on to become the HST fleet manager at a large TOC and later Engineering Business Development Manager at another. I won't comment on the quality of his model operation though... 

Any show needs a variety of layouts (both in size and scale); some that amaze, some we can admire from afar, others we can aspire to building something similar, others that might make us "have a go", others that make us think if they can exhibit that junk, why not me?

 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Phatbob said:

 

Ageed.  Don't forget, Noah was an 'amatuer'.  The Titanic was built and run by 'professionals'. ;-)

Never underestimate keen 'amatuers' and 'blokes in sheds'.
 

 

Built by drunk Irishmen though....

 

And they proudly tell you that they drank X amount of pints a day whilst working in the shipyards in the museum. Knowing the type of workers that would have been working in those yards they are probably understating the amount they actually did drink. 

 

They also say "It was fine when it left".... 🚢

[Michael Hodgson]

16 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Copenhagen Fields is such a superb model that if there were no trains running at all it would still be worth spending time looking at it.

The main problem with that particular layout at shows is getting close enough to appreciate it!  I think that's where relatively plain layouts with a lot of viewing frontage (such as Pete Waterman's) have an appeal of their own.  There is of course a big difference in the development time between these two types, as well as the practicability for most of us of  providing large viewing areas to allow a lot of folk  simultaneous viewing.

 

I suppose I just dislike the crowding that happens at the better known shows which have the best layouts, and of course the rucksacks, discourtesy I see towards those with limited mobility etc.

[t-b-g]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The main problem with that particular layout at shows is getting close enough to appreciate it!  I think that's where relatively plain layouts with a lot of viewing frontage (such as Pete Waterman's) have an appeal of their own.  There is of course a big difference in the development time between these two types, as well as the practicability for most of us of  providing large viewing areas to allow a lot of folk  simultaneous viewing.

 

I suppose I just dislike the crowding that happens at the better known shows which have the best layouts, and of course the rucksacks, discourtesy I see towards those with limited mobility etc.

 

That is pretty much why I prefer shows like the ones put on by the various Society groups. At the 2mm Association do this year at Derby, it was possible to view CF up close and with no crowds jostling and no barriers. Probably the only big general show I visit now is York and that usually has enough room to allow decent viewing.

[Michael Hodgson]

20 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

That is pretty much why I prefer shows like the ones put on by the various Society groups. At the 2mm Association do this year at Derby, it was possible to view CF up close and with no crowds jostling and no barriers. Probably the only big general show I visit now is York and that usually has enough room to allow decent viewing.

I don't go to shows run only for one particular scale, so perhaps I'm missing out but I enjoy seeing layouts to different scales. 

Because of space requirements, you can see full length trains in N with a plausible run of open country scenery, whilst a much more confined layout is necessary in O, but a much greater level of detail is possible and sensible shunting using 3-link couplings is more feasible, with OO being a happy compromise between the two.

 

I suppose I ought to draw a distinction between the big shows that are nationally known and the local events in villlage halls as run by local clubs.  Expectations as to quality (however you care to judge that) of the layouts at the former is always better than the latter.  The latter tend to have lower attendance so it is easier to see the exihibits properly and the admission price is lower, although one typically doesn't want to spend as long there. 

[C126]

I admit I can not remember all the varied tones of the sixteen pages of comments so far on this thread, but to me @The Johnster 's fundamental point is 'How can one learn accurate operation, if wished?'

 

As previously, the only solution of which I can think is a discreet sign at exhibitions indicating a willingness to hear comments.  Education results in both ways - the photographs of the train crew pushing their coaches beyond the station canopy to effect a quicker run-round was most useful.

 

Perhaps someone would build a 'generic' layout with videos on-line (or at exhibitions?), designed specifically to give lectures in 'authentic operation', showing how it changed over time with varying presenters (ex-railway staff?).  But are there many of us that interested for it to be worthwhile...?

[HonestTom]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I don’t know what the fuss is about, skim reading admittedly.

 

I have no great, or almost any knowledge of how real railway regulations stipulate operation but I love fine detailing even down to trying to get a moustache even on a station master (and that’s getting almost impossible nowadays for me) but I still have no signals on my layout, everything else is about finished but does it bother me? No…..why should it, I love modelling not running trains to strict prototype standards, TBH I think that would be incredibly boring in as much as there would be massive gaps between operation and movements. 
 

When I went to shows it was the detail and some truly amazing feats of modelling prowess that impressed, not how well the chap driving did.

 

All just IMO of course.

This is rather where I stand. My model railways are more like dioramas with trains as a moving feature. These days, it's the making aspect that appeals to me. Accurate operation is of course an achievement and I certainly won't condemn anyone who strives towards it - we all enjoy the hobby in different and equally valid ways. But I'm afraid I grew up long after the steam age, I can't tell what's accurate in operational terms and what isn't.

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, C126 said:

Perhaps someone would build a 'generic' layout with videos on-line (or at exhibitions?), designed specifically to give lectures in 'authentic operation', showing how it changed over time with varying presenters (ex-railway staff?).  But are there many of us that interested for it to be worthwhile...?

 

I think if well done that would be an absolute draw for the casual visitors - families etc. Have someone in railway uniform at the front of the layout explaining what is happening, in not too technical terms. 

 

Of course if every layout starts doing it, it could become as annoying as DCC sound...

[C126]

Thanks, @Compound2632 .  I had not thought of a presenter in uniform, but that sounds wonderful, to alternate with simpler demos for children where they could have a go.  Power cut off, A.W.S. klaxons sounding, and flashing lights if a S.P.A.D. occurs.  On second thoughts, perhaps it would be best to have this in its own room.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

At one show where I exhibited a layout, one of my operator friends went on to become the HST fleet manager at a large TOC and later Engineering Business Development Manager at another. I won't comment on the quality of his model operation though... 


 

He is not subscribed to RMWeb then? 😆

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, C126 said:

Thanks, @Compound2632 .  I had not thought of a presenter in uniform, but that sounds wonderful, to alternate with simpler demos for children where they could have a go.  Power cut off, A.W.S. klaxons sounding, and flashing lights if a S.P.A.D. occurs.  On second thoughts, perhaps it would be best to have this in its own room.

 

I was thinking more of a straightforward narration, explaining what was happening and why. Although I don't have a uniform and will be operating from behind the layout, you've inspired me to give this a try with Erlegh Quay at the Bracknell exhibition this Sunday.

 

http://bracknellrailwaysociety.co.uk/Content/Exhibition2022.html

 

I'll see how long my voice lasts out and whether anyone listens!

 

(This layout does have some unprototypical aspects to its track plan, unfortunately, but we try to work it as prototypically as we know how, when we're being serious.)

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Built by drunk Irishmen though....

 

And they proudly tell you that they drank X amount of pints a day whilst working in the shipyards in the museum. Knowing the type of workers that would have been working in those yards they are probably understating the amount they actually did drink. 

 

They also say "It was fine when it left".... 🚢

putting the funnel on the keel was a rookie error though 

[CloggyDog]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was thinking more of a straightforward narration, explaining what was happening and why. Although I don't have a uniform and will be operating from behind the layout, you've inspired me to give this a try with Erlegh Quay at the Bracknell exhibition this Sunday.

 

http://bracknellrailwaysociety.co.uk/Content/Exhibition2022.html

 

I'll look forward to that - I'm tucked over in the corner with my Czech TT micro - one advantage of modelling 'foreign' is I'm less likely to get pulled up on any dodgy operating practices by those that know 😜