Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[Barry O]

I hope the Hand of God is an exact scale one built to S4 standards.

 

You should exhibit your layout @The Johnster.  Why? Wellwe can all come and watch your perfect operation.

 

Baz

[sulzer27jd]

That's us now got 13 pages of mostly biter comments, often snide and generally unpleasant, simply because someone had the audacity to suggest that the operation of a model railway should probably reflect the standard of the work carried out in making it.

 

There was an opportunity here for a sensible discussion but as happens so often here, that has been lost in the noise of those who would rather shout someone down than have a reasoned discussion.

 

J

[woodenhead]

If you are not happy with a thread everyone has the same free choice - ignore it.  Trying to steer threads is like turning a container vessel in the Suez canal, accept that a thread runs like water and it will always find it's own path, you can go with it or climb out.

 

The ignore option is right there at the top, then you can attempt your own thread on the same topic and try and stop it descending in the same manner or simply move on and forget the topic ever existed.

 

TT120 proliferation stressing you - Ignore it, heard enough about the woes of Hornby - Ignore it, general thread that descends into discussing the great unwashed or people with large rucksacks - Ignore it.  Works every time.

[Phil Parker]

31 minutes ago, sulzer27jd said:

That's us now got 13 pages of mostly biter comments, often snide and generally unpleasant, simply because someone had the audacity to suggest that the operation of a model railway should probably reflect the standard of the work carried out in making it.

 

There was an opportunity here for a sensible discussion but as happens so often here, that has been lost in the noise of those who would rather shout someone down than have a reasoned discussion.

 

J

 

Presumably a "reasoned discussion" where people only agree with you. It would be pretty short if that's going to happen - discussion involves opposing viewpoints. On one side we have an OP who watched a video and suggested operation could be improved. On the other, people who actually carry out the operation who have reasons why it can't, or doesn't matter. That's the nature of a forum. Every forum.

 

You aren't forced to read this stuff, but if you do, please don't add snide and unpleasent comments.

[sulzer27jd]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Presumably a "reasoned discussion" where people only agree with you. It would be pretty short if that's going to happen - discussion involves opposing viewpoints. On one side we have an OP who watched a video and suggested operation could be improved. On the other, people who actually carry out the operation who have reasons why it can't, or doesn't matter. That's the nature of a forum. Every forum.

 

You aren't forced to read this stuff, but if you do, please don't add snide and unpleasent comments.

 

Of course I could ignore this thread, as suggested by @woodenhead and no doubt that is what I will end up having to do. My question then is, how do we learn? I was quite interested in this topic as operation is something I would like to understand better. I may not be alone in that desire. I never knew the steam era at all and my current project is set over 100 years ago so I need to draw on the knowledge of others. Having that knowledge available seems to be a good thing. I don't though, particularly want to wade through the stream of destructive comments, the "ah buts" and the "what aboutaries" 

 

I of course accept @Phil Parker that others disagree with me. I really don't have a problem with that. Where my issue lies is not with contrary viewpoints but with simply destructive comments that seem intended to belittle someone, mostly the OP (although to be fair he seems a quite resilient character). Language is of course powerful. In your statement above you determine that the OP has watched "a video" (singular) and it appears that this makes his views less valid than those on the other side who "actually carry out the operations". I suspect that both statements are probably not entirely accurate but it is certainly not a good look for an Administrator to be quite so partizan.

 

You may not agree with what I said but I would ask that you point out exactly where my comment was either snide or unpleasant. 

 

Perhaps, if I am still allowed, I could draw the conversation back to operations.

 

If those of us who care about the accurate operation of models (and I absolutely accept that no everyone does) are to improve the way we run our models, how do we learn those practices from a long gone era? 

 

If we consider as being appropriate;

• a track plan to be an accurate representation
• a suitable locomotive for the setting (one that would run on that line)
• in the correct livery for the depicted era
• a suitable set of rolling stock, to match the era and purpose
• Scenery that sets a location or time-period
• Signalling that is suitable

Then as modellers we will go to various lengths to get accurate information. People for example, join scale societies to garner a greater understanding of how that chosen railway worked. We may pour over maps looking for features of the line. Others build, alter, rebuild, renumber and re-livery stock to make it more suitable for the chosen location. If (and I am just choosing one example) you model an A3, you may (or may not of course) take into account the correct livery at a given point in time. That being the case you will probably also consider it's allocation, if it were an A1 or A3, the boiler type, the dome, the tender, if it were right or left hand drive, the chimney and smoke deflectors, amongst other things. Yet we are led to believe that wanting to operate your layout as per the prototype is somehow less valid. 

 

On layouts we often see track work where there are no trap points, facing point locks or signals and I can accept that for the builder that is where they have decided to find their balance of accuracy. I have watched many layouts where there were glaring errors if you assessed it by the rule book but have enjoyed them none-the-less. It certainly didn't invalidate them as an exhibit or entertainment. This returns us to the point though, that if you are setting out to make the most accurate representation of a particular place or scene, then surely how that is displayed matters both on terms of the static scene and the moving scene. 

 

There are of course compromises in every scale and these vary between scales. Three link coupling being a good example. Part of this discussion would inevitably and rightly raise the topic of automatic versus hand uncoupling and how do we balance the lack of fidelity inherent in both approaches and all the various systems. That discussion/debate should be encouraged, I would suggest. I am currently putting door handles on coach doors that will never open, for passengers that don't exist. Crazy? possibly, maybe even probably. The point is I want it to look better with them, than without. But I also want them to represent a scale model of a train. One that will operate in a way that represents how they would have worked. 

 

Now, I may well be trying to turn my tanker in a canal but I would hope that there could be a discussion around how model railway operation, at home, at exhibition or - as we are seeing increasing - online via video could attempt to better match the level of detail and realism that has effectively become to norm. We are where we are in those terms, with some unbelievably realistic and beautiful models, because at some point someone was brave enough to say the lichen trees are really not that great at being scale trees. That perhaps scratch building your station would be more accurate than another Ratio or Superquick kit. That building your own track work might be more accurate than RTR. That having signals that work and that in some cases can even bounce is better than having them fixed. So maybe allowing time for your pretend fireman to couple up the pretend brake pipes and allow the pretend brakes to release it better than just bumping into them and shoving them into a platform. Perhaps.

 

J

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by sulzer27jd

[wombatofludham]

As the "Dolgellau" exhibition layout might be having to close due to our landlord needing the Vestry back (negotiations and replacement location search ongoing) I might be in the position of coming back to exhibiting having done a short stint at exhibitions with "King's Oak".  However, if I do return, I think I'll model a recently closed-by-Beeching line which will have several advantages:

1) No snotty comments from the finescale Taliban about the wrong loco for the line.
2) No need for billiard table track perfection to avoid derailments
3) No electrical problems
4) It'll be very easy to nip off for a view of the exhibition, tiddle or tom-tit
5) I'd have a concealed Bluetooth speaker with ambient environmental noise and the sound of jackhammers and machine tools indicating the line is being dismantled just off set.  In that way the anti-DCC sound objectors will still get annoyed.  I am that petty.

Acceptable standards at an exhibition?  I didn't realise that model railways were a new Olympic sport and that our exhibition circuit was being touted as the main way for our elite modellers to qualify for the games.  Surely the majority of sensible modellers who attend shows are just happy to see the modelling, grateful to the exhibitors that they have put their own time and money into creating their model and expect there to be the odd glitch, foul-up and hand-of-God moment?  It's part of the fun and if an exhibitor makes a joke about it, so much the better (our visitors to "Dolgellau" find it amusing when a perennial electrical problem stops some, but not all, locos on one point.  I always joke about "the Hand of God" needed to help the train along which is why we're in the Chapel Vestry) 

The rare occasions I attend exhibitions I always make a point of visiting every layout, even if not to my personal interest just because somebody has spent time and money coming to show off their creativity, and whatever the subject, there's usually something of interest and inspiration to see.

[br2975]

If anyone should ask - "will there be another Cardiff (Small) Model Railway Show ?"

.

Think on this

.

With the O.P's original comments, backed up by the content of some responses to his original post regarding two very well modelled layouts, I doubt the organisers of a future Cardiff (Small) Model Railway Show would be able to easily find enough modellers willing to expose themselves and their  handiwork to such intense scrutiny and social media  criticism posted from afar.

.

Would the O.P. - a past visitor to the aforementioned show refine his criticisms (for that's what they are) on seeing

OO layouts where the track is a scale 7" under gauge ?

Or even EM gauge layouts where the track is a scale 2" under gauge ?

Figures and motor vehicles frozen in time ?

Highly, or even slightly improbable combinations of locomotives and stock.

1:1 scale beer bellies visible above the backscene

I could go on, but where will the nit-picking end ?

 

I once thought "I model for my own benefit" - and this thread has  strengthened, nay confirmed that belief.

After all...

I can't see anything in the OP, or this thread in general, that would encourage newcomers to the hobby, or first time exhibitors.

.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by br2975

[bradfordbuffer]

1 minute ago, br2975 said:

If anyone should ask - "will there be another Cardiff (Small) Model Railway Show ?"

.

Think on this

.

With the O.P's original comments, backed up by the content of some responses to his original post regarding two very well modelled layouts, I doubt the organisers would be able to find any modellers willing to expose themselves and their  handiwork to such intense scrutiny.

.

Would the O.P. - a past visitor to the aforementioned show refine his criticisms (for that's what they are) on seeing

OO layouts where the track is a scale 7" under gauge ?

Or even EM gauge layouts where the track is a scale 2" under gauge ?

Figures and motor vehicles frozen in time ?

Highly, or even slightly improbable combinations of locomotives and stock.

1:1 scale beer bellies visible above the backscene

I could go on, but where will the nit-picking end ?

 

I once thought "I model for my own benefit" - and this thread has  strengthened, nay confirmed that belief.

.

 

Just a minute.....beer belly is prototypical for railway operations full size and scaled

[Gilbert]

2 minutes ago, br2975 said:

If anyone should ask - "will there be another Cardiff (Small) Model Railway Show ?"

.

Think on this

.

With the O.P's original comments, backed up by the content of some responses to his original post regarding two very well modelled layouts, I doubt the organisers would be able to find any modellers willing to expose themselves and their  handiwork to such intense scrutiny.

.

Would the O.P. - a past visitor to the aforementioned show refine his criticisms (for that's what they are) on seeing

OO layouts where the track is a scale 7" under gauge ?

Or even EM gauge layouts where the track is a scale 2" under gauge ?

Figures and motor vehicles frozen in time ?

Highly, or even slightly improbable combinations of locomotives and stock.

1:1 scale beer bellies visible above the backscene

I could go on, but where will the nit-picking end ?

 

I once thought "I model for my own benefit" - and this thread has  strengthened, nay confirmed that belief.

.

 

A point well-made but to be fair to the Cardiff Minifest I thought it was always a decent show worth travelling to.

My album from before the "event" is here.....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103471893@N02/albums/72157712725309897

 

 

 

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, sulzer27jd said:

You may not agree with what I said but I would ask that you point out exactly where my comment was either snide or unpleasant. 

 

Tell you what; how about you stick to our politics role and stop amending your location to make a political statement? That's twice I've had to do it. There won't be a third time.

[br2975]

Just now, bradfordbuffer said:

Just a minute.....beer belly is prototypical for railway operations full size and scaled

. 

1:1 scale Beer bellies, dirty mugs and half eaten sandwiches on the horizon behind a P4 layout are probably acceptable to some; but they'd no doubt baulk at the speed of the pannier on yard pilot duties.

 

[br2975]

1 minute ago, Gilbert said:

A point well-made but to be fair to the Cardiff Minifest I thought it was always a decent show worth travelling to.

My album from before the "event" is here.....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103471893@N02/albums/72157712725309897

 

 

 

.

Thank you Gilbert, I'm glad you enjoyed your visits.

.

There 'may' be a reincarnation, but it would be in a different format.

.

Watch this apce.

[Gilbert]

2 minutes ago, br2975 said:

 

.

Watch this apce.

I already am..... 😉

 

and here's some pics from 2019...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103471893@N02/albums/72157689127878203

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Gilbert

[The Johnster]

I think it might be time to remind everbody that my original comment was related to the Scalefour Society show, and the apparent mismatch of fine-scale accurate modelling with unrealistic operation.  I have mentioned that my opinion is that, at a ‘normal’ exhibition, one will see layouts built and operated to a variety of standards, some of which will be inconsistent because there will be a variety of operators. 
 

As modellers, we attempt to recreate reality varying degrees of success but must accept compromise.  Even my allegedly perfect operation is flawed; there are no scale operating shunters to couple up and connect vacuum & steam heating pipes, so I must imagine them, but allow time for them to complete the task and get clear and for the brakes to blow off before moving, and if the equally imaginary passengers are able to board the train, time for the brake continuity test to be completed, for example.  
 

Not everyone will be aware of these rituals and some will see no reason not to back the loco on to stock that has the brakes on hard and shove it towards the buffers in one continuous move, which is fine (though perhaps less so at a show with a ‘scale’ aspect), but correct operation costs no money, and demands no modelling skill or expertise, which suits me fine as I have little of either.  
 

 

[br2975]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I think it might be time to remind everbody that my original comment was related to the Scalefour Society show, and the apparent mismatch of fine-scale accurate modelling with unrealistic operation.  I have mentioned that my opinion is that, at a ‘normal’ exhibition, one will see layouts built and operated to a variety of standards, some of which will be inconsistent because there will be a variety of operators. 
 

As modellers, we attempt to recreate reality varying degrees of success but must accept compromise.  Even my allegedly perfect operation is flawed; there are no scale operating shunters to couple up and connect vacuum & steam heating pipes, so I must imagine them, but allow time for them to complete the task and get clear and for the brakes to blow off before moving, and if the equally imaginary passengers are able to board the train, time for the brake continuity test to be completed, for example.  
 

Not everyone will be aware of these rituals and some will see no reason not to back the loco on to stock that has the brakes on hard and shove it towards the buffers in one continuous move, which is fine (though perhaps less so at a show with a ‘scale’ aspect), but correct operation costs no money, and demands no modelling skill or expertise, which suits me fine as I have little of either.  
 

 

.

I've got a spare shovel if you need help getting out of the hole you've dug.

[tramcard]

I notice many of the replies relate to the accuracy and precision of layouts. Well, this might be fine for some but many of us, and certainly children would like to see trains running. I went to a show this weekend and one layout, a small Triang TT set up had three trains running simultaneously. On every other layout the grass was growing quicker than the trains were moving. In fact, I reckon full size railways run faster than most of the layouts.

 

Now, I thought I was bit of a minority with this whinge, but I found a similar post on a Face Book page, and it seems i am certainly not alone in not liking the current fad for potential Turner Prize winning layouts. There also seems to be an ongoing 'how slow can you get your train to go' competition.

 

I coughed up my £8 and was in an out within half an hour. Nothing I wanted on the trade stands and while the detail of the layouts was, I assume good and accurate, they were all so boring.

 

Only saving grace was it being a nice day and had a pleasant ride there and back on my motorcycle. I have noticed this trend towards end-to-end layouts over recent years which might be an accurate representation of Sleepy Hollow station in the 1930s but the fact it probably closed when Beeching was still a lad due to lack of traffic does not have to be represented on the model!

 

I suppose this is a bit of a 'rant' which is how the poster on Face Book referred to his comments. Maybe Hornby are on to something with their move to TT. People would like model railways that they can run rather than just look at.

[woodenhead]

With the way this thread is going, here is my two penneth's worth.

 

I dont bl**dy care whether a model railway, no matter what the scale, is operated to the rule book pertaining to the imaginary line it exists upon for the date of which the layout represents.  We are all grown up enough to know we are just playing trains and every railway has it's own Rule 1.

 

I just want to see smiling faces on both the exhibiters and the visitors, enjoying a nice day out at an exhibiton which may be a rarer thing next year as costs rise.

 

Is that too much to ask.😀

 

In other news I have just found my £ key on my US Keyboard (set to UK), today it is under the hash key - but where is the hash key when I needed it above!!! 🤨

[woodenhead]

@sulzer27jd You might be better setting up your own thread to understand common practice on your model.

 

Every railway had it's own customs and practice, track layouts and building styles.  A generic thread about exhibitions would not answer specific questions about a specific railway other than some people would prefer finescale models to adhere to such customs and practice that may exist on said finescale model of non specific location.

 

I get your gist about learning, but a more focussed question for a particular railway company would generate more enlightening answers and get responses from people who know that particular company.

[RedgateModels]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

We are all grown up enough to know we are just playing trains 

 

Blimey, that's a whopper of an assumption 😉🤣

[Barry Ten]

37 minutes ago, tramcard said:

 

 

I coughed up my £8 and was in an out within half an hour. Nothing I wanted on the trade stands and while the detail of the layouts was, I assume good and accurate, they were all so boring.

 

 

You're hard to please. Are you honestly saying there was nothing worth staying longer than 30 minutes for? Seems like a mad waste of 8 pounds.

 

A bit of variety is surely the spice of life. As an exhibitor (operator with someone else's layout) at a show a couple of weeks ago, we probably would have been considered one of the too-slow, Turner-style layouts (a branch-line terminus, so not much scope for high-speed running although some of the moves can be "brisk") but if someone didn't care for that, there were plenty of other types of layout on show, including a genuinely fun Lego one which certainly held my attention for a few minutes.  And what about just admiring the fine modelling on display, regardless of the speed of the trains?

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, tramcard said:

Now, I thought I was bit of a minority with this whinge, but I found a similar post on a Face Book page, and it seems i am certainly not alone in not liking the current fad for potential Turner Prize winning layouts. There also seems to be an ongoing 'how slow can you get your train to go' competition.

 

 

Don't believe everything you read on FaceBook - people specialise in moaning on there.

 

Maybe I've got this wrong but for years modellers asked for good slow speed control on their RTR models because they wanted to move away from the TT racetracks.

 

Exhibitions are usually a mix of large layouts with lots going on and smaller layouts where the focus is on slow methodical movement.    There are some that even though small do operate like Piccadilly Circus, but that is personal preference by the operator and most probably for people who like seeing lots of train movements and nothing at all wrong in that.

 

Depending on the size of the exhibition you may see more larger busier layouts, but some exhibitions will specialise in the smaller slower layouts as that is what the majority of their visitors desire.  I must admit I have now moved into this space when looking at models at exhibitions, I enjoy the slower shunting layouts over the bigger processions of HSTs, 66s, Pendos and IEPs.

 

It's a balancing act, but exhibitors cannot please all of the people all of the time.

[The Johnster]

It does seem to me that operational realism is a poor relation in the hobby, and shouldn't be at 'scale' shows.  Or anywhere else but it is sort of inevitable at 'general standards' (if I may call them that) shows; not everyone is aware of how real railways operate or used to operate in the periods they model and, if they have not worked or volunteered on real railways, why should they, but I sort of expect 'scale' modellers to do the research; most do!

 

I am in agreement with Tramcard about slow running, in fact I would say that good operation includes running at plausibly realistic speeds.  Fast runnig with brickwall stops and stabbed rat starts irritates me, and my modelling life has been marked by efforts to try and improved the slowness, controlllability, and smoothness of RTR products; things have improved but current DC RTR still needs a light touch on the knob to get the best out of it.  But there does seem to be a snail-racing competition, presumably to show off how slowly your loco can run; yawn!  Smooth starting and stopping by all means, but get on with the job; real railwaymen had time to keep and wanted to get home for tea, so shunting should be carried out quickly enough to get the job done without killing anyone.  Speeds off running lines were subject to an overall 15mph speed limit; 15mph is the sort of speed that frightens pedestrians when cyclists whizz past them on pavements, 22 feet per second, more than a standard wagon length.  Keep it moving, guys!

 

And keep it moving a bit quicker on running lines unless there are speed limits.  An unfitted loose coupled mineral or branch pickup train can run up to 25mph, though 20 would be a more usual speed, about a wheel beat per second on a rail joint, dum, dum, dum, dum.  After 1967 all short wheelbase stock (9 and 10 foot) was restricted to 45mph, dumdumdumdumdum but it was possible to have a part-fitted class 8 train with a brake van composed of bogie bolsters that ran at 60mph (though it was 'interesting' in the van).  Prior to that, fully fitted express goods trains ran at 60 mph with 10' wheelbase stock, dudududududum; guards often took advantage of the rule that allowed up to 4 axles of vacuum fitted stock behind the brake van to steady the ride.  It looks like some ECML fish trains frequently exceeded this, running behind pacifics and equalling passenger timings, drrrrrrrrrrrrrum.  Accounts of the unfitted 'windcutters' and 'Annesley runners' on the GC in BR days suggest speeds well in excess of 25mph on guaranteed clear roads as well, with plenty of room to slow the train down as you approached the end of the long clear run.

[woodenhead]

@The Johnster How deep is this hole you're digging 😆

[The Johnster]

33 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Blimey, that's a whopper of an assumption 😉🤣

 

I don't play trains, I operate a real imaginary railway serving the needs of a real imaginary South Wales Valleys mining village set in a real, not imaginary, location, only small and in the 1950s, as far as possible to the 1955 BR rule book.  Actually, that's playing trains really, isn't it?

 

If it comes to scale pretensions, I fail to make the cut on many levels.  I have a Triang Hornby 2721, abeit worked up a bit but retaining the original incorrectly positioned splashers that do not align to it's Bachmann 57xx chassis, and oversized bunker.  I have Rule 1 Ratio 4-wheelers for a miners' workmans inspired by the Glyncorrwg train of the period, and am working (slowly) on a 44xx, TDU allox until 1953 and worked on the Porthcawl branch but that never TTBOMK penetrated the mountain fastnesses, and 3100, a 1938 Collett large prairie 3150 rebuild that was photographed at Abergwynfi in 1951, pushing the Rule 1 envelope a bit.   There is also a completely ficticious working for a Barry Standard 3MT tank, because I like Standard 3MT tanks.  I use tension lock couplings, how 'train set' is that?

[woodenhead]

@The Johnster That being the case, why are you so demanding of others?

 

If I recall there is a saying about not demanding more from others than you demand of yourself.

Edited October 24, 2022 by woodenhead
grammar