Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[PMP]

9 hours ago, The White Rabbit said:

 

There's https://www.amazon.co.uk/Model-Railway-Operation-Accordance-Prototype/dp/1852604212 and https://www.amazon.co.uk/Authentic-Model-Railway-Operation-Martin/dp/1912038005 

 

I don't own either, so I don't know how good the contents are but remember seeing the Wild Swan copy advertised when it was released. 

There’s an overview of the WSP book by Martin Nields book here

https://albionyard.com/2016/12/01/inspiration-2/

It is pretty good, but doesn’t cover things like time taken to couple up etc and one page on lamps. Overall however it does  cover a wide range of aspects well.

Edited October 4, 2022 by PMP
Spellin

[Mallard60022]

The length of those US Freights is astonishing. Impossible to model except by Elon Musk? Spent much of Lockdown 'in' the USA on both Heritage and main Line. What a Country.

 

[AndyID]

9 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

The point is that when scaling up and down factors like length (model size but also velocity) scale very differently than factors related to area (friction) and volume (mass). In 00 scale the length scaling is 1:76.4, but area is 1: 5837 (ignoring decimals) and volume is 1:446,000 (rounding up a little).

 

 

I thought I said that several pages ago 😀

 

"Newton's first law of motion still applies to any mass. The problem is that losses to friction do not scale."

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Paul Cram said:

In the Tatlow book on LNER goods on page 7 there is a photo of a goods train displaying a light engine lamp code

 

Sssssh - don't tell the OP.

[whart57]

7 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

I thought I said that several pages ago 😀

 

"Newton's first law of motion still applies to any mass. The problem is that losses to friction do not scale."

 

And Newton's second law tells us how those losses are rendered visible to us in the form of changing velocity.

[AndyID]

2 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

And Newton's second law tells us how those losses are rendered visible to us in the form of changing velocity.

 

Indeed, but what happened to the kinetic energy?

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

The length of those US Freights is astonishing. Impossible to model except by Elon Musk? Spent much of Lockdown 'in' the USA on both Heritage and main Line. What a Country.

 

 

Saw one a few years ago at an exhibition. N gauge and it was about forty foot long.

 

Some who attend exhibitions might know it. It was a mountain side with a track half way up and maybe a couple of tunnels and bridges with some forestry. Nothing else such as stations or buildings.

 

But it did have very long freight trains and ISTR a couple of passenger trains.

 

One to just stand and watch the trains go by.

 

 

Jason

[whart57]

45 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Indeed, but what happened to the kinetic energy?

 

Does anyone care? We can see the loss of momentum, we can see our wagons and coaches have little inertia - those are the issues we have to solve. Undetectably warmer bearings aren't a problem.

[figworthy]

10 hours ago, Tim V said:

Reading this thread has reminded me of why I stopped exhibiting my layout Clutton (P4 roundy).

 

This layout featured correct operation of a single line using replica token instruments. It also featured loose shunting of goods wagons – using DCC controlled wagons. Lamps were also displayed. Correct train formations. It was lost on most of the visitors.

 

Luckily some people saw the layout for what it was, and enjoyed it. At the York show in 2006, a chap asked why train out was not preceded by call attention – because that was how the WR did it. Turned out he was a signalman on the big railway, and so were the two people next to him.

 

For the rest the criticism it received made me seriously consider giving up. It just wasn’t worth dragging this fairly large layout to shows where the best that came was ‘stood there for 30 seconds and nothing moved’.

 

I was basically wasting my time.

 

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment.

 

I had the pleasure of seeing Clutton two or three times, and found it to be one of those layouts which don't have to have trains running to keep my attention.  From my perspective, it wasn't a waste of your time bringing it out.

 

Adrian

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

Sssssh - don't tell the OP.

 

No, don't, he's already got enough on his plate! 

 

Could be to do with some local instruction in a Sectional Appendix, or simply a forgetful loco crew, but if so it wouldn't have got far before a signalman had spotted it and had it pulled up at the next box.

 

Headlamps and codes are another lost world, the means by which the class of train was conveyed to signalmen so that they could prioritise traffic correctly.  Tail lamps were to establishe that the train had passed through the section complete without dividing, and even after automatic brakes were introduced had to be seen by the signalman before he cleared back to accept another train.  Brake van side lamps showed red to rear and white forward, so that the loco crew could look back to check that the van was still there, and the guard could reverse them to show red forward to alert the loco crew and those of oncoming trains to a problem and have the train stopped.  On relief, slow, or reception roads parallel to running lines, a white light could be shown to the rear in order to prevent the drivers of overtaking trains applying full emergency brakes to avoid colliding with the rear of trains that were not on the same track.

 

Another lost world is whistle codes.  Big yards had a number of these, each individual in meaning to that particular yard, a combination of long, short, and 'crow' whistles that had to be known comprehensively to pilot drivers and shunters working in that yard, and used to indicate what the loco's next move was to be so that ground staff could set the road up for them to save time.  Working at large complicated yards, or on dock complexes, required knowledge of a very significant number of these codes; thankfully, few layout operators try to display this at shows...

 

A practice that could be modelled, though, is bucket on a signal.  On the GW and other railways where there were lower quadrant signals, there were places where goods trains were put into loops to await acceptance in yards or station areas, and it was not unusual for the train to be there for some time.  If you were put inside at Grange Court, South Wales main line just down line from Gloucester, during the wee hours, you could be confident that you were there for the duration while Gloucester station hosted parcels shunting movements and the other goods traffic was busy.  Inevitably, especailly during the small wee hours, the opportunity would be taken to 'rest your eyes', take a short nap, or, earlier in the evening, perhaps to sneak off over the fence to a nearby pub to slake one's thirst.  How to be woken up and notified, or called from the pub, when the road becomes available and the signal is pulled off?  Send your fireman up the signal ladder with the loco's bucket, and tell him to hang it on the signal arm.  Signal is pulled off, eventually, and the bucket drops 20 feet or so to the ground with a loud bang, alerting the crew to the fact that they have to get on the move; don't forget to pick up the bucket, though!  MAS put an end to this of course, replaced by the ring of the signal telephone if you didn't move when the signal came off.

 

[newbryford]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

  Signal is pulled off, eventually, and the bucket drops 20 feet or so to the ground with a loud bang, alerting the crew to the fact that they have to get on the move; 

 

 

Will it work with normal signals that go upwards?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

My 2p worth...

For me, it's not the quality of the modelling or the accuracy of operation per se. These are going to be variable and a good exhibition will show a range and variety that the punters can relate with or aspire to. Rather it's the engagement (or very often lack of) those displaying the layout and operating it, have with those attending. 

 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

Presumably tweezers not made of steel - I have 'magnetized' screwdrivers which drive me nuts! 🤪

Stainless steel - although if I can find some decent "soft" plastic ones they would reduce the risk of damaging the paint on the lamps.

[AndyID]

9 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Does anyone care? We can see the loss of momentum, we can see our wagons and coaches have little inertia - those are the issues we have to solve. Undetectably warmer bearings aren't a problem.

 

Can't speak for anyone else but I do care, a lot. I'd like to be able to recreate some of the steam loose shunting I saw more than sixty-five years ago. The problem with models is not insufficient mass, it is too much friction. Of course that is not a simple problem to solve, but let's not assume physics makes it impossible as you seem determined to imply.

 

EDIT: BTW, not all of the kinetic energy is dissipated as heat and sound. Much of accelerates the planet Earth (just not by very much 😀)

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by AndyID

[roundhouse]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Saw one a few years ago at an exhibition. N gauge and it was about forty foot long.

 

Some who attend exhibitions might know it. It was a mountain side with a track half way up and maybe a couple of tunnels and bridges with some forestry. Nothing else such as stations or buildings.

 

But it did have very long freight trains and ISTR a couple of passenger trains.

 

One to just stand and watch the trains go by.

 

 

Jason

I think I saw that same layout. If I recall it was a model based on the Feather River Canyon.

[CloggyDog]

On 03/10/2022 at 15:52, whart57 said:

 

What do you do when you want them just as wagons? And no, consisting is not the answer.

 

The answer might be found in the axle-hung motors from Japan, which are easily back-driven and have little rolling resistance? 

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/10260566

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

Or with a bit of lateral thinking….. how about something like magnorail?

[Phil Bullock]

12 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Sssssh - don't tell the OP.

And in Michael Clemens latest book on the Worcester area there’s a 204 hp shunter in the up refuge at Norton being overtaken by a Castle on a Padd job. The 204 is propelling a GWR shunters chariot which is wearing express lamps.

[Rhys]

53 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

The answer might be found in the axle-hung motors from Japan, which are easily back-driven and have little rolling resistance? 

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/10260566

 

 

I purchased a set of these a few years back.

I found them to be hard to control with plenty of rolling resistance.

[Not Jeremy]

An interesting discussion, with lots of good points well made.

 

Going back a few pages;

 

Quote

A really useful thing for someone who does understand all this stuff deeply to do would be to produce a book, or series of magazine articles bringing together all that knowledge, illustrating it with photos, diagrams, and maybe rule book or general appendix extracts, and passing it on to others. I’m thinking MRJ or Wild Swan quality of material.

 

That maybe true, but the businessman in me shudders at the prospect of boxes and boxes of unsold stock that such a publication would indubitably generate.

 

In the meantime, Wild Swan does offer this:

 

Authentic operation for model railways

 

I think there is actually and already a huge amount of information available, I suspect that the "problem" highlighted is more to do with what interests and motivates each of us when we create our models and model railways.

 

For myself, the best model railways are those that allow me to suspend disbelief and enter in to the scene or world with which I am presented.

 

There are many and various ways in which this can happen, and in that diversity of approach, I think, lies the joy and magic of this great hobby of ours.

 

 

Simon

Edited October 5, 2022 by Not Jeremy
space

[Nearholmer]

3 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

That maybe true, but the businessman in me shudders at the prospect of boxes and boxes of unsold stock that such a publication would indubitably generate.

 

That made me chuckle, because I know you're right.

 

The fact, painful as it is for those of us who do find "close up" operation interesting enough to care about it, seems to be that most people are far more moved by the physical appearance of a model railway than how it operates.

 

Interestingly (to me anyway), if you go back to pre-WW2 model railways, most builders placed far more emphasis on operational realism than on visual realism, they wanted to create "models of railways", and they certainly didn't distract themselves by representing anything very much outside the railway boundary. The sea-change seems to have started immediately before WW2, when a few heavily-scenic concepts were floated, and gathered pace as knowledge of the work of people like John Allen and John Ahern spread.

[Not Jeremy]

22 hours ago, Tim V said:

Reading this thread has reminded me of why I stopped exhibiting my layout Clutton (P4 roundy).

 

This layout featured correct operation of a single line using replica token instruments. It also featured loose shunting of goods wagons – using DCC controlled wagons. Lamps were also displayed. Correct train formations. It was lost on most of the visitors.

 

Luckily some people saw the layout for what it was, and enjoyed it. At the York show in 2006, a chap asked why train out was not preceded by call attention – because that was how the WR did it. Turned out he was a signalman on the big railway, and so were the two people next to him.

 

For the rest the criticism it received made me seriously consider giving up. It just wasn’t worth dragging this fairly large layout to shows where the best that came was ‘stood there for 30 seconds and nothing moved’.

 

I was basically wasting my time.

 

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment.

 

Dear Tim

 

I take your point, but the impact of Clutton was much, much more positive on viewers and exhibition goers than your description implies!

 

It is/was wonderful on so many levels, not least in achieving exactly what you set out to create all those years ago.

 

There are always those who will criticise, it is an easy thing to do and we can all fall into that "trap" from time to time(!)

 

Being a bit cheeky, I seem to recall a youth who looked a lot like you reducing an industrial chemist to a gibbering and nervous wreck at one exhibition, something to do with unrealistic N gauge as I vaguely recall.... 

 

Simon

 

 

[Not Jeremy]

Quote

Interestingly (to me anyway), if you go back to pre-WW2 model railways, most builders placed far more emphasis on operational realism than on visual realism, they wanted to create "models of railways", and they certainly didn't distract themselves by representing anything very much outside the railway boundary. The sea-change seems to have started immediately before WW2, when a few heavily-scenic concepts were floated, and gathered pace as knowledge of the work of people like John Allen and John Ahern spread.

 

I think that is right, I guess a late "survivor" of the earlier approach was Norman Eagles Sherwood Section, which certainly fired my imagination when it appeared in Railway Modeller back in the 1970s.

 

I guess there is a sort of dichotomy that we all face, in the general sense that realistic appearance quite possibly does not support the "operational" style of realism that we may be talking about on this thread.

 

For myself, as a cash strapped and unskilled entrant to the hobby, it was Cyril Freezer's 9d Peco booklet on Modelling Branch Lines that really caught my imagination. It was the combination of the huge visual appeal of the subject coupled with the realisation, as Cyril explained so well, that with just a few items of rolling stock and on quite a small "stage" one could recreate a credible representation of the real railway and how it operated.

 

That is still a thought that really inspires me fifty plus years later and is probably the idea or notion that mostly informs and motivates my own efforts in the hobby today. 

 

Going back to older models (which I appreciate this thread is not about), one which fires my imagination to this day is the "Bracton Chase" railway in 7mm scale, the builder created a completely believable world to my eyes.

 

It is such a good hobby to have an interest in.

 

SImon  

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Just another 2p...

I think there's a big difference between model layout operation in an exhibition setting and at home. I know little of the age/interest profile of those attending exhibitions, but I just sense that the majority want to see things moving. I know as I get older my attention span diminishes, whilst those with young children want to see continual movement. Hence, on roundy-round layouts the trains inevitably just circle round and round. There might be sidings on the layout, but very rarely do we see them actually being shunted.

An exhibition, after all, is a show. It's not necessarily a time for deep reflection on prototype operation.  Even at Pendon, how often (if ever) are trains shunted into sidings and remarshalled?

 

 

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

And in Michael Clemens latest book on the Worcester area there’s a 204 hp shunter in the up refuge at Norton being overtaken by a Castle on a Padd job. The 204 is propelling a GWR shunters chariot which is wearing express lamps.

Hi Phil

 

Could one of the lamps be a red one. Shunting within station limits was a white and a red lamp each end.