Hornby announce TT:120

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I get the same issue. Yes, I've signed up to the TT club. And I know its been processed properly, as I've already bought a set and had the discount applied!

I've not signed up (yet) so can't comment on the sequence of clicks to get to the content. A couple of people are having problems. Could it be the use of a cookie crusher or similar that is blocking content ?

[NHY 581]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

 

The whole online only sales means the whole thing is a no sale from the start anyway, I want to see the product in the flesh before I commit money, give it a good look over and support bricks and mortar shops wherever possible. 

 

Exactly. And that will be the view of many modellers. I'm happy to support  retailers who continue to support the modellers and offering free advice to those joining the hobby. 

 

49 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

How many "bricks and mortar" model shops are left? The last one here closed down thirty years ago. Now I do live within an hours drive from Gaugemaster's big shed next to Ford station so I can go and see product "in the flesh" without too much trouble but half the population do not live that sort of travel time from one of the remaining big box shifter outfits. The internet plus "in the flesh" viewing at shows is how sales will go in the future.

 

I accept that there are areas where there are no model railway shops........but not every model railway shop is a box shifter. Many are still grass roots shops. Please don't catergorise all as box shifters. Many retain traditional values and take a pride in customer service. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

Each to their own, but the internet has pictures....my eyes find those good enough.  Won't work for everyone (meaning this genuinely, some people just don't have the eyesight, or can't make sense of a 2D picture for other neurological reasons).

 

Less genuinely, could the mods add a poll: "And I won't be buying TT:120 because [Option A], [Option B], [Option C]."

 

Would save wear and tear on the server.... 🤑

 

 

 

The internet is not the be all and end all when it comes to retail. Traditional shopping takes more of an effort granted but it's good to get out once in a while......especially if you're shopping for something you really want. 

 

Is there a better feeling of going to a shop, selecting a new model then taking it home to run on the layout ? 

 

Or are we forgetting how to do that now ? 

 

I admit, I only have a passing interest in TT. I'm intrigued by the possibilities but with so many possibilities in 4mm and increasingly in RTR 7mm then I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm not so curious as to accept being dictated to by Hornby how I buy my models whilst effectively being encouraged to turn away from model shops..........

 

Rob. 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by NHY 581

[luke_stevens]

Just now, Tim Dubya said:

 

I think the sets are very reasonably priced.

 

 

 

 

I think the sets are a remarkably good price. Witch is what I am telling myself having just ordered The Easterner. I would have gone for a diesel set if one had been available... I also wanted to get one of the mk1 coaches to kit bash it into a MLV using the sides I have on order from Worsley Works.

 

It will also be interesting on my TT120 diorama, described elsewhere 

 

Luke

[009 micro modeller]

15 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

Each to their own, but the internet has pictures....my eyes find those good enough.  Won't work for everyone (meaning this genuinely, some people just don't have the eyesight, or can't make sense of a 2D picture for other neurological reasons).

And lots of people preorder stuff without even seeing pictures of the finished model, based on the pre-production samples and images of the prototype.

 

53 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But Tri-ang OO came in red boxes, TT in yellow ones. Simple.

 

It remains to be seen how clearly the new packaging will be differentiated from Hornby OO.

More recently, I’ve also just remembered the N scale Lyddle End range. I can’t remember how they branded that to look different (although I vaguely recall it was, slightly oddly, branded ‘9mm’ which in N is the standard track gauge rather than the relevant scale).

From the images published so far, the TT packaging doesn’t seem to be differentiated that much. Even then, I’m not sure differentiating by colour necessarily works that well. I would understand it, as would anyone who knows a bit about model railways already, but from a beginner’s point of view will they realise the significance of the colour differences any more easily than the significance of what’s written on the boxes regarding the scale?

 

I also think from a beginner’s point of view it might be confusing to be told that the Heljan TT (same gauge, different manufacturer) stuff can run on their Hornby TT layout (or Bachmann 00 stuff can run on their Hornby 00 layout), yet lots of the other stuff by Hornby (same manufacturer) can’t. Obviously this supposed “problem” exists with lots of manufacturers who make items for multiple scales and doesn’t seem to be too much of an issue, but they aren’t specifically targeting newcomers and tend not to have one range that’s much more established than the other.

 

To be fair, I might be overestimating the confusion that scale/gauge differences will cause based on previous experience of explaining to beginners how NG modelling works and the difference between 009 and N gauge, which is slightly more difficult to get your head round as it introduces the idea of multiple completely different prototype track gauges, and the idea of using different model gauges in the same scale. And I do still think that Hornby TT is a good idea, they just need to be careful with this aspect of it and how it’s communicated to customers.

[whart57]

8 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

I accept that there are areas where there are no model railway shops........but not every model railway shop is a box shifter. Many are still grass roots shops. Please don't catergorise all as box shifters. Many retain traditional values. 

 

I visit Gaugemaster regularly, it's the nearest model railway shop to me, though still a fair old drive away. The staff are friendly and helpful but we all know the place exists to move volumes of stuff. And the funny thing is that a number of times the shop staff have had to go into the mail order section to get what I want ........

 

8 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Is there a better feeling of going to a shop, selecting a new model then taking it home to run on the layout ?

 

Yes, it's finishing a kit or scratch built model and seeing that run on the layout.

[andythenorth]

10 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

Is there a better feeling of going to a shop, selecting a new model then taking it home to run on the layout ? 

 

Having it arrive at the door in a package, usually from a cheery (in our local case) Royal Mail postie?

 

Even better if it's a pre-order from months ago that turns up as a surprise.

 

I get out quite enough ferrying my kids around and going to Tesco. 😬

 

Each to their own etc. 😉

 

We could have a sideshow diversion into the different kinds of instant gratification and consequent effects on behaviour of model train purchasers.  I'm happy enough to wait a week or a month for actual delivery of trains.  But I want to click 'buy' with no delays and no faff.  But eh, it's hardly the thread topic 🙃

Edited October 12, 2022 by andythenorth

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

And lots of people preorder stuff without even seeing pictures of the finished model, based on the pre-production samples and images of the prototype.

 

More recently, I’ve also just remembered the N scale Lyddle End range. I can’t remember how they branded that to look different (although I vaguely recall it was, slightly oddly, branded ‘9mm’ which in N is the standard track gauge rather than the relevant scale).

From the images published so far, the TT packaging doesn’t seem to be differentiated that much. Even then, I’m not sure differentiating by colour necessarily works that well. I would understand it, as would anyone who knows a bit about model railways already, but from a beginner’s point of view will they realise the significance of the colour differences any more easily than the significance of what’s written on the boxes regarding the scale?

 

I also think from a beginner’s point of view it might be confusing to be told that the Heljan TT (same gauge, different manufacturer) stuff can run on their Hornby TT layout (or Bachmann 00 stuff can run on their Hornby 00 layout), yet lots of the other stuff by Hornby (same manufacturer) can’t. Obviously this supposed “problem” exists with lots of manufacturers who make items for multiple scales and doesn’t seem to be too much of an issue, but they aren’t specifically targeting newcomers and tend not to have one range that’s much more established than the other.

 

To be fair, I might be overestimating the confusion that scale/gauge differences will cause based on previous experience of explaining to beginners how NG modelling works and the difference between 009 and N gauge, which is slightly more difficult to get your head round as it introduces the idea of multiple completely different prototype track gauges, and the idea of using different model gauges in the same scale. And I do still think that Hornby TT is a good idea, they just need to be careful with this aspect of it and how it’s communicated to customers.

 

Do people buying Scalextric for the kids have problems with the different scales and ranges?

 

My Scalextric

Micro Scalextric

Standard

App Controlled

ARC AIR

ARC PRO

 

https://uk.scalextric.com/catalogue/sets

 

I don't think they do. I honestly feel we are underestimating the general public. They know what they want.

 

 

Jason

[luke_stevens]

8 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Is there a better feeling of going to a shop, selecting a new model then taking it home to run on the layout ?

 

Yes, it's finishing a kit or scratch built model and seeing that run on the layout.

 

Or in my case going to a shop, selecting a new model then taking it home then sound fitting, detailing, weathering the model and seeing that run on the layout :)

 

Best of both worlds!

 

Luke

[NHY 581]

16 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

I visit Gaugemaster regularly, it's the nearest model railway shop to me, though still a fair old drive away. The staff are friendly and helpful but we all know the place exists to move volumes of stuff. And the funny thing is that a number of times the shop staff have had to go into the mail order section to get what I want .....

 

I'm not sure what it is you're saying here, Whart......is that to their detriment? Does it make a difference ? 

 

16 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Yes, it's finishing a kit or scratch built model and seeing that run on the layout.

 

Sure but that's not really what were discussing here........this is all about Hornby providing RTR models and how they can be obtained............not about who is tge better modeller or have I also missed that particular point....? 

 

Rob. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by NHY 581
Sausage hooves

[NHY 581]

10 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

Having it arrive at the door in a package, usually from a cheery (in our local case) Royal Mail postie?

 

Even better if it's a pre-order from months ago that turns up as a surprise.

 

I get out quite enough ferrying my kids around and going to Tesco. 😬

 

Each to their own etc. 😉

 

We could have a sideshow diversion into the different kinds of instant gratification and consequent effects on behaviour of model train purchasers.  I'm happy enough to wait a week or a month for what I want.  But I want to click 'buy' with no delays.  But eh, it's hardly the thread topic 🙃

 

 

Noted Andy, but is this the only future retail option for our hobby we want.......surely not.....? 

 

If we read into Hornby’s plan for their TT range, then God forbid, that's how they see it.

 

Rob. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by NHY 581

[009 micro modeller]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Do people buying Scalextric for the kids have problems with the different scales and ranges?

 

My Scalextric

Micro Scalextric

Standard

App Controlled

ARC AIR

ARC PRO

 

https://uk.scalextric.com/catalogue/sets

 

I don't think they do. I honestly feel we are underestimating the general public. They know what they want.

 

 

Jason

I agree, I just know that some model railway beginners don’t always understand it at first. And the Scalextric page in the link is a good example of clearly differentiating between the ranges.

[Covkid]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:33, Trains4U said:

Yes, customers did flock to  O gauge, but most saw the models at shows or in shops, and were tempted after much looking and pondering at the tempting items on display.

 

online only is a huge mistake, but hey, at least I don’t need to make space in my shop for it.  TT may well be notable by its complete absence in the very places that advocate the hobby.

 

100% agree Gareth.  I watched the video and have to say it is plausible enough to someone new to the hobby. There is a huge amount of money tied up in this plan and I sincerely hope Hornby can pull it off, but IMHO the odds are stacked against them.  I visited my LHS yesterday and heard pretty much a carbon copy of what Gareth has said. Online only sounds great but how many folk will buy a trainset from Hornby online, then expect their LHS to sell all the bits to make it "work" for them ?

 

Looking at the locos and rolling stock it is all a direct crib from the OO range, and despite what Simon said, there has to have been a huge element of scaling down. A3, A4, Duchess, Bulleid, Castle.  Straight out of the Hornby Dublo catalogue then class 66 etc. I get the impression it is a whole new train set, but is actually Simon's last hurrah.  Not criticising him for it, but IMHO what would sell the product is three or four modern trains which are not available in OO.  An electrostar, a 185 and a 196 or 197 would create a lot of desire I believe. 

 

Wish them loads of luck with this project.

 

[009 micro modeller]

19 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Yes, it's finishing a kit or scratch built model and seeing that run on the layout.

 

8 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Sure but that's not really what were discussing here........this is all about Hornby providing RTR models and how they can be obtained............not about who is tge better modeller or have I also missed that particular point....? 

Actually I have sometimes thought (and we’ve discussed previously on RMWeb) that making it slightly easier to get into kit building (e.g. with a range of loco kits that are relatively easy to assemble and motorise, yet still a bit beyond just assembling a snap together kit) might get more people interested in railway modelling whose interests are more about making things and building up a scene, rather than running trains. But that’s probably a discussion for another time.

 

11 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Noted Andy, but is this the only future retail option for our hobby we want.......surely not.....? 

No, but for some people it already is - either because they don’t have a local model shop or the stuff they need is too specialised and isn’t carried by their local shop. Or even for something more mainstream they might not stock a manufacturer’s entire range. 

[RThompson]

I am a little surprised the range hasn't tried to go for more of a nod to the original TT by adding a GWR castle and SR Merchant Navy which are both in the 00 range with modern CAD artwork available already to use as a basis.

 

Obviously there is time!

 

I wonder if the old BEC kits may get duplicated also in TT 1:120 rtr at some point?

 

 

 

[Trains4U]

24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Do people buying Scalextric for the kids have problems with the different scales and ranges?

 

My Scalextric

Micro Scalextric

Standard

App Controlled

ARC AIR

ARC PRO

 

https://uk.scalextric.com/catalogue/sets

 

I don't think they do. I honestly feel we are underestimating the general public. They know what they want.

 

 

Jason

Yes

 

yes they do

 

all the time

[Moxy]

5 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you know who has them now / are they part of Adrian ABS Swain's estate ?

 

Cheers 

 

 

3SMR sell the former BEC kits

 

https://www.3smr.co.uk/locos.html

[RThompson]

4 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you know who has them now / are they part of Adrian ABS Swain's estate ?

 

Cheers 

 

Apparently 3SMR has the old BEC kits range of TT kits from a quick research.

 

The old 00 gauge tram kits and bogies are still available from a seperate firm who has the BEC Kits name.

 

Off the record, BEC models used to be my local model shop. How I miss that shop!

[andythenorth]

45 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Noted Andy, but is this the only future retail option for our hobby we want.......surely not.....? 

It has the ingredients to be a whole other thread, but as it's related directly to Hornby's TT:120 sales channel strategy....let's continue here.

 

Personally I don't care if there's no retail future for the hobby.  We have one remaining model shop here (it's a good one, well known, well-stocked, good staff), but the experience is frankly dour.  Peering at boxes of stuff and display cabinets and racks.  It's all very Victorian. 🎩

 

Of course, it's a big world, and fortunately my views don't have to be everyone's views, and for that we're all better off. 🙃

 

On the bigger picture, I think it's probably moot, some of the best retailers have always done mail order, and do a good job with the internet too - a physical shop with a big stockroom and an eBay account does the job nicely. But obviously that becomes a different story where Hornby are pursuing a direct-to-consumer channel strategy, the retailer is out of that picture, whether or not they have big stock room, a physical storefront and an eBay account.  

 

The channel dilemma is as old as the hills by the way.  Or at least 99 years old - Claude C Hopkins wrote about it in 1923 - dealers are a route to market, but ultimately aren't incentivised to push your product, so you end up spending on advertising to support them, but you don't have full control.  So that tends towards D2C, but then you're inevitably in competition with your own dealers, which de-incentivises them to push your stock, and incentivises you to de-prioritise dealer support. So ultimately, for certain products in certain markets, D2C will win:  Book is here: https://www.scientificadvertising.com/ScientificAdvertising.pdf (specifically Chapter 16 "Leaning On Dealers")

 

It's not a cut and dried strategy.  Huge brands like Apple and Lego prioritise D2C online or in their own stores, but are obliged to have lots of shelf presence in other retail channels, and with box shifters like Amazon.  Meanwhile in our hobby, where possible I'd always buy direct from some brands - for example, Accurascale or Revolution, who have fantastic D2C channels - but sometimes the only remaining stock is in the dealer channel, the D2C warehouse is empty for the stock I want.  Whereas trying to buy direct from Dapol or Bachmann would be a waste of time, either it's just not possible, or the dealers will simply have much better discount prices and service.

Edited October 11, 2022 by andythenorth

[luke_stevens]

27 minutes ago, RThompson said:

I am a little surprised the range hasn't tried to go for more of a nod to the original TT by adding a GWR castle and SR Merchant Navy which are both in the 00 range with modern CAD artwork available already to use as a basis.

 

Obviously there is time!

 

I wonder if the old BEC kits may get duplicated also in TT 1:120 rtr at some point?

 

 

 

 

The Castle is promised...

 

[farren]

For many years  I have had the Corgi static model of the Flying Scotsman which i do love. Yes it’s not got all the detail of the OO model but has it’s smaller I don’t think it matters, and had often thought if it could be motorised. I won’t bother now. I’ve put a order in for the Mallard set, there’s really only one way to see how good something is. Detail can always be added, and is probably easier to add detail then to re-gauge a OO to P4. 

[JohnR]

36 minutes ago, RThompson said:

I wonder if the old BEC kits may get duplicated also in TT 1:120 rtr at some point?

 

 

 

 

I really cant see the GEM kits getting rescaled. Might as well do new kits from scratch - perhaps to work with some of the new chassis?

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Presumably at the same time that some of the Dublo range became Triang-Wrenn, even though the sets still had Hornby Dublo items for sometime to use up excessive stocks.

(I bought several wagons that has been from a broken up new Triang-Wrenn 8F set, all were Hornby Dublo)

 

George Wrenn made a request to use the Dublo tooling in 1966; his company was at that time part owned by Triang hence the Triang-Wrenn name; and as you experienced, a number of the early sets made use of both new-manufacture Wrenn and remaindered Dublo stock.

[Zunnan]

27 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

Having it arrive at the door in a package, usually from a cheery (in our local case) Royal Mail postie?

 

Even better if it's a pre-order from months ago that turns up as a surprise.

 

I get out quite enough ferrying my kids around and going to Tesco. 😬

 

Each to their own etc. 😉

 

We could have a sideshow diversion into the different kinds of instant gratification and consequent effects on behaviour of model train purchasers.  I'm happy enough to wait a week or a month for what I want.  But I want to click 'buy' with no delays.  But eh, it's hardly the thread topic 🙃

 

I suppose different peoples priorities lie in the 'have to have it for minimal effort and I want it yesterday' category. I'm entirely guilty of that too. The shopping is online. Takeout is online. Movie hire is online. We're becoming completely disconnected from direct social interaction. A week or so ago, Just Eat had a big outage and it was curry night. Rather disappointed and on the verge of just cooking something me and the Mrs decided to go down to the takeout instead. For the first time in at least 4 years. And you know what? Just the experience of sitting there smelling the food being cooked and having a chat with the staff was absolutely fantastic.

 

Online sales just don't have the same thrill for me. They're a means to an ends. My last model railway related one was more like this...

 

Got home from work to a 'Sorry we missed you' card, so went online and arranged a re-delivery for my day off work. Didn't come due to strike action. Rearranged it again and had to have it redirected to my parents house as that was the only guarantee someone would be in.

Finally received package 10 days after purchase. Not bad for a 48hour service.

Opened up, and immediately note loose parts in the packaging, inspect and think 'meh, I can fix that'. Plonked on the layout to test it, glorious grinding noise from within.

Contact the seller to arrange a return then re-packaged the problem child and trudge up to the post office.

Await confirmation that the return has been received, then get the great news that a replacement is not available so would I like a refund or store credit against another purchase?

 

That, vs being able to go into a model shop that doesn't have an online presence. My second to last visit to Topps Trains went pretty much thus.

 

Looking for the by then sold out everywhere online Bachmann SFX class 47 in IC Swallow. Get to handle the model in the flesh for the very first time, and be seriously impressed as the online photos don't nearly do it justice.

Notice a blemish or two and point them out, deflated expecting that to be the only one. Despondency turns to glee as Mike nips to the back room and pulls out another SFX Duff. Look it over and its perfect, so it gets test run, properly test run to the point its bordering on a full run in session.

Wallet hits real deep trouble as you find not one, but two Mk2F TSO in blue/grey which are fetching £150+ on ebay. Not only that but also notice there are several IC exec TSO as well.

Leave the shop half an hour later grinning from ear to ear wondering how you're going to explain the £700 hit to the bank because you've found and pillaged a treasure trove near impossible to find online.

 

My most recent visit was more restrained...I just went back for two more of those IC exec TSO which are selling for silly money online because apparently they're not available 'anywhere'.

[eldomtom2]

The page on the Hornby website about the benefits of TT is interesting.

 

Benefits they list include:

• "Entire range DCC ready"
• "Internationally accepted track geometry"
• "Uses NEM standards on new models"
• "Regular new product announcements"

They also admit no advantages to OO - how much of a future do Hornby see for it?

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

 

They also admit no advantages to OO - how much of a future do Hornby see for it?

Surely all locos with a Next18 is something? Just one type of decoder needed. (2 if you want sound)

The current 00 range has 8pin, 6 pin, 21 Pin, (Any others?)