Hornby announce TT:120

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

why a British outline range need conform to a Continental scale.  

 

Its an American scale in origin, not Continental (unless that was the continent you meant).

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

And 3/10" x 25.4 = 7.62mm.

 

I know, but that doesn't help me measure it, whereas I've got several rules and rulers that tenths and twentieths of inches.

 

 

[spamcan61]

58 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Zero benefit, but equally, retailers will be carrying zero risk...

 

If Hornby ever do start pushing the new scale at them, we'll know it's not going well.

 

John

During the WoR interview (well more like an SK speech with Howard trying to get a word in edgeways...) He does specifically state that the online only sales situation might change in the future 

[davidw]

On 10/10/2022 at 22:15, Hilux5972 said:

Looking at the Pullman sample, it appears they have finally got a much better Umber colour than the far-too-dark OO Gauge colour. Dare we hope this translates over to OO as well?

I absolutely agree. The Hornby colours are so wrong in 00. 

[Hroth]

Seeing as all and sundry are making TT:120 noises (in various shades of muted) , no one is currently proposing any DMUs, and I don't count HSTs!  Perhaps Bachmann could nibble themselves a slice of the action by producing some? 1st Generation onwards, in green, blue...

 

 

[davidw]

Having read and mulled this over. Hornby have made a huge investment in TT. It's a huge risk. Do they really think though that this suddenly is going to be the family Christmas gift of the next few years. At a time of a deepening financial crisis? New enters to the Hobby? Really where from...

So I personally don't get it, but wish those who are jumping for joy and Hornby the best with it.

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

During the WoR interview (well more like an SK speech with Howard trying to get a word in edgeways...) He does specifically state that the online only sales situation might change in the future 

Doesn't change my assessment.

 

Nearly all the OO stock Tier 3 retailers get (quite often unsolicited) is stuff that has failed to shift any other way.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[MartinRS]

5 hours ago, andyman7 said:

 

The thing that has killed more established companies than anything else is sitting tight in a dominant market. Every business bible exhorts the need to constantly move forward to survive. SK cannot sign off this level of investment - it is clear that at a corporate level a decision has been taken to try a grow something that will sustain in 10, 20 30 years. This doesn't mean that 00 is dead now or for many years but it is not good enough to wait until the writing is on the wall.

 

I would guess that the business case has involved all sorts of calculations on demographics, market penetration, distribution etc. There are over 28 million households in the UK. Hornby only need a tiny number of those to say 'yes' to a TT train set when 00 would be a no and they can significantly grow the market. Add in the possibility (finally) to sell UK trains to Germany and the US, markets that both have many users who are happy to run trains from different countries but not if they are made to a different scale.

 

This is a brave decision but I can see the rationale.

 

That would be illegal. It's entirely reasonable that rumours and the word on the grapevine may have got round; that's not quite the same as a secret meeting in Blofeld's Swiss hideaway by the Model Railway Illuminati

Coordinates please? Tri-ang Battle Space Rocket Launcher on standby!

Edited October 12, 2022 by MartinRS
typo

[MrTea]

8 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

see Andy’s response to this

 

 

That would explain the Castle on p9 of the digital brochure and also the mention of the Britannia in the list of future items then?

 

Corgi’s Rail Legends range was very much a ‘greatest hits’ of Hornby’s best selling Pacifics (but scaled down to 1:120) from what I can see on eBay. So to some extent you could argue they did test the market for a midway between 00 and N range of models a few years back. They’ll know what sold well from those. 

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, ThaneofFife said:

id like to know more about how close the couplings will be.

Very, they're using the Tillig design which means the buffers will almost kiss.

[Jeff Smith]

Do they auto-couple, and how do they uncouple?

[Moxy]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

No. But why make a GWR station and buildings when there is nothing to go with them?

 

I've not seen any official confirmation or dismissal.

 

Not a great shot and you'll probably realise why I don't post photos...

 

To my eyes that's a 14XX (or a 517) with GWR 4 wheelers. You can see the coach roof profile better in the magazine advert.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Peco dismissed that in the July 2022 issue when they launched their TT track and buildings.

 

That is a diorama they made to promote the track & building kits and to quote the article "It should be noted the auto train and mechanical horse are 3D prints and not indicative of planned Peco models."

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Do they auto-couple, and how do they uncouple?

Yes if theirs is a Tillig clone? 

The bar beneath releases when it’s pushed up so it operates much like tension locks in that respect. 
Link to the Tillig coupler. 

https://www.tillig.com/Produkte/produktinfo-08840.html

 

 

[DonnyRailMan]

Will this TT120 be a good move for Hornby or not in long run is the model railway world in UK ready for TT 120.

[MartinRS]

I have modelled in several scales and different prototypes over the years. I started out with a Tri-ang Railways RS.24 Pick-up Goods Train Set with the blue loco Nellie and Series 3 Track. Over the years it was joined by a class 31, a complementary Minic Motorway, a change to Series 4 Track, a Blue Pullman, a B12, Princess Royal, and then I discovered Peco Streamline flexitrack. Then, when my parents moved house, I sold it all and decided to model in American outline N gauge. I eventually changed to British outline N. After a break from the hobby I choose British OO, then British N, then back to American N gauge. That was all sold when I re-entered the education system as mature student. Over the last couple of years I have accumulated a modest amount of British outline OO, though I don't have a layout. I'm sure many readers on this forum have also changed the scale they model in over the years.

 

But what if TT:120 is the Goldilocks scale? Will people, once they have tried it out, stick with it? If TT:120 does prove profitable for Hornby and lasts five years or more then I can see it challenging OO as the most popular scale. Just as Gauge 1 was replaced by 0, which gave way to 00 (in the UK), are we on the verge of TT:120 becoming the natural choice of both first time modellers and and more established enthusiasts, forced, either by less agile fingers to abandon N, or in a position where they want more in the same physical space?

[Tim123]

2 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

the diesels look to be single powered bogied models.

 

 

The catalogue pictures are Photoshopped OO gauge models. In OO the class 66 is old school Lima (and Hornby) with a larger motor bogie and a small non powered trailing bogie. Class 50 and HST re the more recent examples with both bogies powered. The Silver King A4 photo is based on the 2004 A4 model - the two pole drawbar with the pin sticking down under the tender shows it to be a version before DCC sockets and the white loco to tender plug were introduced.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, MrTea said:

That would explain the Castle on p9 of the digital brochure and also the mention of the Britannia in the list of future items then?

 

Corgi’s Rail Legends range was very much a ‘greatest hits’ of Hornby’s best selling Pacifics (but scaled down to 1:120) from what I can see on eBay. So to some extent you could argue they did test the market for a midway between 00 and N range of models a few years back. They’ll know what sold well from those. 

 

One thing no-one has mentioned - is the A4 or A3 a diecast body? Hornby have experience doing that in OO where weight is needed

 

It would appear quite  a lot of TT-120 development work has been shared with other things we knew about. Corgi's static diecast seem to have spawned three Pacifics and a Castle. The sharp comments about cloning the Oxford Rail tank wagon and other things in the OO range point to TT-120 products having been developed as a spin off of new OO tooling over the last few years. They have CAD to shrink and rework

 

There is also the matter of licencing on modern stuff . Hornby have the necessary licences for Adzumas and 66s already, in OO.  No doubt those extend to TT-120 .

 

It's already been noted that the "clean sheet of paper" stuff seems to be held back until Phases 3 + 4

[Jeff Smith]

Although I have read most of this thread (it is hard to keep up) I have not seen any speculation regarding use of chassis as donor chassis which could spark some 3D bodies.  No need for re-gauging!

[Les1952]

After wading through 35 pages of (in many cases unhelpful) posts I do worry about RMWebbers and their collective ability to even consider anyone else's point of view.

 

To enlarge on one post-

British Classes 86 and 87 are in use in Bulgaria (87s are called Class 85)  and sometimes border-hop where 25KV electrification extends past the frontier. Indeed Bulmarket are now overhauling their Class 86s and repainting them- there is a good variety of possible liveries available to sell into established markets should Hornby choose an 86 or 87.  I saw a pic in one of the European mags of an 86 on a train with a 66 coupled inside it.

 

Class 92 has been in use in Romania but four of these seem to be moving on- I can't remember where but it is within the Eastern Bloc- another loco with overseas sales potential.

 

Class 66 and their similar Class 77 (the ones with the big aircon on the cab roof) seem to get everywhere- well over 100 Class 66s built for use on the Continent as well as the exported ones, and at least 60 Class 77, now mostly in Germany I believe. I saw an EWS liveried 66 hiding behind a wagon that obscured its number in Verona yard in Northern Italy, parked on the same line as one of the ubiquitous Vectron electrics.  Again, plenty of liveries and a good market, especially if Hornby don't hike the price for Continental sales.

 

Class 58 were sold into France, and some Class 37s used there as well for a time.  The Dutch have Class 08 lookalikes, and given that locos are sold everywhere in Europe these days some could have ended up almost anywhere, though I know of no examples to quote.  

 

That makes a good number of UK prototypes that could be sold into a major TT market with no extra tooling costs, just a run in a different livery.  Anything for the European market could always be boxed up as Arnold.....

 

My personal plans are as follows.  After 60004 and its set I may buy an A3 to start off in the showcase.  Selling Croft Spa's stock will finance any TT- I'm lucky that I don't really need any new stock for Bregenstadt.  I'll wait for Hornby's J94 before committing to TT120 for Broken Scar.  That layout would need about 6 of them as currently planned, with an odd green 08, plus if anyone wants to make a J72 that would be more than welcome.  In TT120 the track plan is a lot less squashed than in OO.

 

Just a few thoughts

Les

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Les1952
typos...

[LMSfan72]

….and, I think it’s an opportunity for trying things out in this wonderful cottage industry of ours too! In addition to the The Easterner I have gone for a MK2F BSO. I fully plan to have a go at scaling my Network Rail test coach fleet to TT just to see if I can!!

[David Stannard]

9 hours ago, andyman7 said:

That would be illegal. It's entirely reasonable that rumours and the word on the grapevine may have got round; that's not quite the same as a secret meeting in Blofeld's Swiss hideaway by the Model Railway Illuminati

 I doubt it would be illegal as many companies collaborate with each other when it comes to product development, if price fixing was involved then that would be highly illegal.

[MartinRS]

4 hours ago, Les1952 said:

After wading through 35 pages of (in many cases unhelpful) posts I do worry about RMWebbers and their collective ability to even consider anyone else's point of view.

 

To enlarge on one post-

British Classes 86 and 87 are in use in Bulgaria (87s are called Class 85)  and sometimes border-hop where 25KV electrification extends past the frontier. Indeed Bulmarket are now overhauling their Class 86s and repainting them- there is a good variety of possible liveries available to sell into established markets should Hornby choose an 86 or 87.  I saw a pic in one of the European mags of an 86 on a train with a 66 coupled inside it.

 

Class 92 has been in use in Romania but four of these seem to be moving on- I can't remember where but it is within the Eastern Bloc- another loco with overseas sales potential.

 

Class 66 and their similar Class 77 (the ones with the big aircon on the cab roof) seem to get everywhere- well over 100 Class 66s built for use on the Continent as well as the exported ones, and at least 60 Class 77, now mostly in Germany I believe. I saw an EWS liveried 66 hiding behind a wagon that obscured its number in Verona yard in Northern Italy, parked on the same line as one of the ubiquitous Vectron electrics.  Again, plenty of liveries and a good market, especially if Hornby don't hike the price for Continental sales.

 

Class 58 were sold into France, and some Class 37s used there as well for a time.  The Dutch have Class 08 lookalikes, and given that locos are sold everywhere in Europe these days some could have ended up almost anywhere, though I know of no examples to quote.  

 

That makes a good number of UK prototypes that could be sold into a major TT market with no extra tooling costs, just a run in a different livery.  Anything for the European market could always be boxed up as Arnold.....

 

My personal plans are as follows.  After 60004 and its set I may buy an A3 to start off in the showcase.  Selling Croft Spa's stock will finance any TT- I'm lucky that I don't really need any new stock for Bregenstadt.  I'll wait for Hornby's J94 before committing to TT120 for Broken Scar.  That layout would need about 6 of them as currently planned, with an odd green 08, plus if anyone wants to make a J72 that would be more than welcome.  In TT120 the track plan is a lot less squashed than in OO.

 

Just a few thoughts

Les

 

I think the Class 08 lookalikes were British Rail Class 11 locomotives. They found their way to the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark.

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

I think the Class 08 lookalikes were British Rail Class 11 locomotives. They found their way to the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark.

Yeah the Dutch got Class 11s. Not sure about the Danes.

[jjb1970]

I don't think British rail enthusiasts are any more insular than any others, if anything the presence of a long-established magazine like 'Continental Modeller', the fact that high street shops stock US magazines like 'Model Railroader' and several UK shops which specialize in overseas models might indicate quite the contrary. I find most modellers in most countries model what they see around them, with the exception of the channel tunnel rail link and freight stock which operates through the tunnel British railways are pretty much a self-contained island of railways (is that a pun?). I know loads of British enthusiasts of overseas railways, and I have a keen interest in Japanese, Chinese and North American railways as well as dabbling in Swiss and German. 

[britishcolumbian]

5 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I don't think British rail enthusiasts are any more insular than any others, if anything the presence of a long-established magazine like 'Continental Modeller', the fact that high street shops stock US magazines like 'Model Railroader' and several UK shops which specialize in overseas models might indicate quite the contrary. I find most modellers in most countries model what they see around them, with the exception of the channel tunnel rail link and freight stock which operates through the tunnel British railways are pretty much a self-contained island of railways (is that a pun?). I know loads of British enthusiasts of overseas railways, and I have a keen interest in Japanese, Chinese and North American railways as well as dabbling in Swiss and German. 

If any group of rail enthusiasts merit the "insular" label, I'd put it on Americans - on the whole they seem to be the least interested in railways outside their own country (I'd swear some even consider Canada and Mexico as completely outside their scope even though equipment from both regularly travel through the States).