Hornby announce TT:120

[jjb1970]

I get the impression Hornby are trying to grow their market rather than just shuffling what their customers buy. This is a bit like discussing wider economic matters, some assume the economy is a zero-sum game in which one party can win only if another loses rather than as a variable which grows and shrinks. I don't think Hornby will cannibalize their OO sales, their TT venture is if anything more likely to impact rivals in N gauge in my view.

[Matt C]

On 14/10/2022 at 09:53, ianmacc said:

Sorry if this has been posted but Hornby have a stall publicising their TT range in the kings cross concourse today with quite a few folks stopping by and the cameras rolling 

 

Sorry, IMMEDIATELY a vision of SK in his Arthur Daly Trilby and coat popped into my head 

 

"Get your TT here, only a few left, Lovely Jubbly" 🤣

 

(Edit to Add, Got me Dalys and Delboys in a muddle but I think he looks more like a Daly)

Edited October 15, 2022 by Matt C

[GWR-fan]

4 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I get the impression Hornby are trying to grow their market rather than just shuffling what their customers buy. This is a bit like discussing wider economic matters, some assume the economy is a zero-sum game in which one party can win only if another loses rather than as a variable which grows and shrinks. I don't think Hornby will cannibalize their OO sales, their TT venture is if anything more likely to impact rivals in N gauge in my view.

 

It is sound economic sense to broaden your horizons as a manufacturer but when you are unable to supply your current needs then what of all those new unfilled projects?  Has Hornby found an untapped production facility that no one else has access to?  Has everyone forgotten that Hornby cancelled a lot of pre-orders by retailers for announced 2022 products?

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, Matt C said:

 

Sorry, IMMEDIATELY a vision of SK in his Arthur Daly Trilby and coat popped into my head 

 

"Get your TT here, only a few left, Lovely Jubbly" 🤣

Del Boy, surely?

[Dunsignalling]

27 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I get the impression Hornby are trying to grow their market rather than just shuffling what their customers buy. This is a bit like discussing wider economic matters, some assume the economy is a zero-sum game in which one party can win only if another loses rather than as a variable which grows and shrinks. I don't think Hornby will cannibalize their OO sales, their TT venture is if anything more likely to impact rivals in N gauge in my view.

I think it inevitable that Hornby TT:120 products will take some sales from equivalent models in the OO range.

 

The issue will be not quantity, but value. The OO models are significantly more expensive and may generate higher profit margins so Hornby could lose more than they gain in some cases. Simon's interview very much stressed the aim of getting new customers in but was noticeably reticent about possible "switchers". 

 

I very much agree that Hornby will need to attract custom from both outside the hobby and existing N gauge users to achieve the volumes they need to get TT:120 off the ground.

 

The thing that keeps niggling at me, though, is that even if it proves commercially viable, British TT:120 is going to remain a fairly small niche scale within the overall model railway market for the foreseeable future.

 

Are "Corporate Hornby" and its backers, psychologically capable of being content with that or will they soon be clamouring for a new "silver bullet" (not the China Clay sort 😉)? 

 

John

Edited October 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[DonnyRailMan]

 

This is a bold move by Hornby they must be given credit for taking the plunge at TT120 Gauge with both feet . 

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Agree on lack of strategic thinking or vision . It’s a typical Kohlerism to constantly churn out large Pacific’s and Pullmans . He can’t seem to see past that  to a Class 313 as an example . And you can see his hand in the initial choice of locomotives in TT:120 , big Pacific’s . A more coherent choice would have been a 37 or 47 in Phase1/2 to go with both large Pacific’s and HST at other end of time frame . Lots of green/blue/freight liveries for a 37 . A 50 not so flexible , but a Kohler favourite! 
 

However there is a limit to the number of times you can retool an A4,A3,Duchess,Princess or 9F . And there are diminishing returns each time . The 9F is a case in point . I would quite like one but at £250 you think twice . Is it significantly better than my Bachmann 9F or even Railroad ones .so I’ll bet each retool sells less and less . I’d imagine Bachmann are finding the same with their 37/47 , great models but are they £200 better than existing ones which are already very good .
 

In contrast there’s the bright blue sea of a complete new market  that happens to be smaller in scale  and could be attractive enough to get people into the hobby because it’s marketed as Hornby , the name that everyone outside model railways associates with model railways . I really don’t know if it will work . I hope so . 

 

 

Another point - there is clearl;y a market for big  Pacifics and Pullmans . The existence of a weekend celebration at KX for the centenary of an A3 points to that. So does the whole Tornado phenomenon.  Somehow a Webb Coal Tank or a 313 don't have that kind of public drawing power

 

But I'm not sure there's much you can sensibly do at home with a big Pacific in OO. People buy them - but can they use them? 

 

The ECML under 20th century steam is an inspirational prototype. Little Bytham, Retford, Grantham, Peterborough North are inspirational flagship layouts . But two of them were built in a large shed in a Lincolnshire village - and I don't think that's coincidence. You need about 30' length to do a serious model of the ECML in 4mm. Tony Wright found Essendine was too big for him to tackle.

 

Arguably - if you live in a major conurbation or the South East you can't model the ECML credibly

 

But if you shoot the big green Pacifics down to a scale 60% of OO, maybe you can do something sensible with them at home. 30' shrinks to 18' length . 

 

If you go to a size bigger than N, you can have your big green Pacific  with twice the presence of N (TT-120 has twice the volume of N , but a quarter the volume of OO) and maybe you can do something sensible with it at home 

 

Somehow that has never really flown in N - it seems a bit too small, a bit too toylike and coarse.

 

But if TT is "a nice size" where you can start to make things? N is not really a craft scale, TT in Eastern Europe is

 

A4s, A3s in squadron service. a 9F on freight . A 31 . Pullmans and Mk1s and Gresley corridors. You can do an impression of the 1950s ECML with that

 

So maybe the Pacifics aren't the wrong models to make. Maybe TT-120 is the right scale to do big green Pacifics? And people want big green Pacifics

 

Its a counter-argument

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'd think the "latest" is something of a minefield for all manufacturers. In the time between signing off a model and it being delivered, it's quite probable that the livery and/or operator will have changed.

 

Tell me about it. When I started building my Thailand based layout it was going to be the current scene. Then the SRT completely changed loco and coach liveries so it was the scene of five years earlier. Now eight years on it's the SRT 2005-2010, no attempt to let it slide along.

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Another point - there is clearl;y a market for big  Pacifics and Pullmans . The existence of a weekend celebration at KX for the centenary of an A3 points to that. So does the whole Tornado phenomenon.  Somehow a Webb Coal Tank or a 313 don't have that kind of public drawing power

 

But I'm not sure there's much you can sensibly do at home with a big Pacific in OO. People buy them - but can they use them? 

 

The ECML under 20th century steam is an inspirational prototype. Little Bytham, Retford, Grantham, Peterborough North are inspirational flagship layouts . But two of them were built in a large shed in a Lincolnshire village - and I don't think that's coincidence. You need about 30' length to do a serious model of the ECML in 4mm. Tony Wright found Essendine was too big for him to tackle.

 

Arguably - if you live in a major conurbation or the South East you can't model the ECML credibly

 

But if you shoot the big green Pacifics down to a scale 60% of OO, maybe you can do something sensible with them at home. 30' shrinks to 18' length . 

 

If you go to a size bigger than N, you can have your big green Pacific  with twice the presence of N (TT-120 has twice the volume of N , but a quarter the volume of OO) and maybe you can do something sensible with it at home 

 

Somehow that has never really flown in N - it seems a bit too small, a bit too toylike and coarse.

 

But if TT is "a nice size" where you can start to make things? N is not really a craft scale, TT in Eastern Europe is

 

A4s, A3s in squadron service. a 9F on freight . A 31 . Pullmans and Mk1s and Gresley corridors. You can do an impression of the 1950s ECML with that

 

So maybe the Pacifics aren't the wrong models to make. Maybe TT-120 is the right scale to do big green Pacifics? And people want big green Pacifics

 

Its a counter-argument

So, a Little Bytham equivalent in a typical domestic garage? Bingo!

 

Not how it's being promoted (yet) though.

 

John

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Agree on lack of strategic thinking or vision . It’s a typical Kohlerism to constantly churn out large Pacific’s and Pullmans . He can’t seem to see past that  to a Class 313 as an example . And you can see his hand in the initial choice of locomotives in TT:120 , big Pacific’s . A more coherent choice would have been a 37 or 47 in Phase1/2 to go with both large Pacific’s and HST at other end of time frame . Lots of green/blue/freight liveries for a 37 . A 50 not so flexible , but a Kohler favourite!

 

Again, who is Kohler trying to sell to? It's not, I'm afraid to say, the fifty year olds who stood on the end of windy platforms in the BR blue era and who are trying to recapture those innocent days. Kohler is quite clear that it is youngsters who run trains round and round a circle. Pacifics and Pullmans sell better there. And, incidentally, a Pacific pulling a string of Pullmans is easier to pass off as a "steam special" on a layout set in the 80s or later.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, whart57 said:

 

Again, who is Kohler trying to sell to? It's not, I'm afraid to say, the fifty year olds who stood on the end of windy platforms in the BR blue era and who are trying to recapture those innocent days. Kohler is quite clear that it is youngsters who run trains round and round a circle. Pacifics and Pullmans sell better there. And, incidentally, a Pacific pulling a string of Pullmans is easier to pass off as a "steam special" on a layout set in the 80s or later.

 

Yeah, but they really need "Clan Line" for that! 😇

[whart57]

Can I just mention to those blithely talking about "shooting down" the CAD files for a 00 loco that that doesn't work? Increasing scale is straightforward, and I and my 3mm Society fellows, have quite a few 3D prints scaled up from N to 3mm scale. Scaling down requires a lot of thought around physical matters. The wall thicknesses needed for reliable moulding don't change, so your design has to change to accommodate that. Not a trivial task. The motors for TT are not a convenient 62.5% smaller than 00 gauge ones and the mounting screws and connecting wires are the same size. Wheel profiles are different, and the fact that TT:120 is not some Greenly botchjob on the scale/gauge front means chassis redesign is inevitable.

[JR_P]

By chance I happened across this announcement several days ago - can’t even recall how, because I would never normally even look at the Hornby threads as I am an N gauge modeller….

 

This is an interesting development and having thought over the matter for several days now, here are my thoughts….

 

I can imagine this venture might be modestly successful in due course, but clearly represents serious amounts of money invested in the here-and-now….

 

However, I think there are several flaws to the approach adopted, as outlined by SK…. I’ll explain why….

 

1) SK says you can run a full length HST in TT - so what - we’ve been doing that for years in N gauge

 

2) SK says you could even use a window cill for a point-to-point layout - so what - you could already do that better in N gauge

 

…. in short, various ‘plus points’ for TT that SK espouses are simply null advantages over existing N.

 

3) this is really where I think they’ve screwed-up; SK says he wants to get families involved (in model trains)…. fine, that is good for the hobby at large and good for Hornby itself…. but I think his strategy here is wrong; here’s why - I believe the conventionally held wisdom (and I do believe this myself) is that one tends to model what trains were about during one’s childhood/adolescence…. so if SK wants to get families involved, forget about A3s and A4s…. I’m mid-40s and I’ve never seen a steam loco on the main line, ever…. do I give a **** about steam locos; no! Frankly, I don’t even remember [from my childhood] loco-hauled services!!!
 

Having grown up [in East Anglia] in the 80s and 90s surrounded by second generation EMUs, I love stuff like 312s, 313s, 317s, 365s and also class91+mk4s (do we count that as loco-hauled?!)…. so accordingly that’s what I want to model.

So back to the here and now; I go to catch a train with my daughter this weekend [albeit she is only a baby!] what is she going to see - 455s, Desiros, Electrostars, 700s - maybe an 80x or Pendo if we head north to visit the grandparents…. that is what the kids today are seeing - if you want to get them involved, you have to give them something they can relate to….

…. to round off this point, picture this; father and son/daughter waiting at [eg.] Glasgow Central station - train [320] pulls in from Lanark - child turns to dad and says “daddy, I want one of those [320] trains” - dad replies, “ha, there’s a 320 available in N gauge”…. then a Pendo pulls in from London - child turns to dad and says “daddy, I want one of those [Pendos] too!” - dad replies, “ah, that’s also available in N gauge”…. finally, a 314 [yes, I know they are now scrapped!] pulls in with a Cathcart Circle service - child turns to dad and says “daddy, I really want one of those [314] trains” - dad replies, “ah ha, there’s a 314 coming very soon in N gauge”…. dad realises that what the child is interested in is, or soon will be, available in N gauge…. it remains to be seen whether such ‘modern’ items show up in the TT range, personally I think SK should have set-up stall with modern stuff at the outset.

 

To conclude, my interpretation of Hornby’s own launch video is that I should be precisely the demographic SK is targeting - bad news SK, I am not going to buy a steam loco - neither me nor my child has ever seen a steam loco [on the mainline]…. so the range at the outset doesn’t attract me…. “I’m out” as they say!

 

…. so what is Hornby left with then; trying to attract existing hobbyists away from their existing scales - I can envisage a draw-away from OO on the basis that TT has space requirement advantages…. but that is just cannibalising Hornby’s own and existing market share. I cannot see large numbers defecting from N gauge - the detail I saw of the 08 didn’t look much better than that of the current Farish 08 - so equivalent level of detail but more space required and a far less diverse portfolio of models, even compared to N gauge.

 

They aren’t even doing a Hogwarts Express - talk about missed opportunity…. although I believe Gen Z consider Harry Potter somewhat passé…. so perhaps not quite the missed opportunity - who knows!

 

Anyway, good luck to Hornby - I don’t have any dealings with them or their products and that doesn’t look likely to change!

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by JR_P
minor typo, plus minor clarification of my childhood memories

[Asterix2012]

On 13/10/2022 at 16:15, Steamport Southport said:

 

No, I'm suggesting N Gauge isn't the solution to the problems that are making TT viable and why Hornby has just spent millions on it. If it was, don't you think Hornby would have made N Gauge instead?

 

IF N Gauge was so good, how come it doesn't even equate to more than the 5 to 10% of the current market? If that. I was an early adopter of N Gauge and it hasn't progressed in those 45 years. Still has that awful coupling system for starters.

 

 

I think you're another one that didn't watch the video and look at the information Hornby highlighted as the reasons for going down this route. N gauge is too small was definitely mentioned as was the closer scale/gauge ratio.

 

 

Jason

Is there not also the possibility that some will move from N to TT120 only slightly larger and slightly more space needed but with more detail possibly and a better coupling?

[Taigatrommel]

I noticed something regarding the mk3s...

 

In the "Onward Journey" blog post, a test shot of a 400xx or 404xx series buffet is shown, ie a type with four seating bays.  However, all the listed mk3 buffets are 407xx series with three seating bays.  I've emailed Hornby in the hopes of a clarification about which the initial models will be.

[andythenorth]

20 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Is there not also the possibility that some will move from N to TT120 only slightly larger and slightly more space needed but with more detail possibly and a better coupling?

N has never appealed to me, but shortly before the Peco TT:120 announcement I started looking into N, because I'm bored of filling up this oval in OO. 😛 

 

I'm not against N in any way at all, I don't think it needs defending or anything before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion, or feels bizarrely threatened or anything.  There are remarkable models in N.  It's just not appealing to me.  Meanwhile TT:120 does float my boat.

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by andythenorth

['CHARD]

23 minutes ago, JR_P said:

I’m mid-40s and I’ve never seen a steam loco on the main line, ever…. do I give a **** about steam locos; no! Frankly, I don’t even remember loco-hauled services!!!
 

 class91+mk4s (do we count that as loco-hauled?!)…. 

 

 

Not going to open a debate about travelling about outside our local area, as youngsters (especially children) aren't as likely to do that under their own steam (groan!) to see T&RS exotica in other regions... But as a point of interest, there is a fair amount of booked loco-hauled passenger services on today's railway. 

 

Yes, Class 91s are one, add to this Class 67 and 68 on the Transport for Wales, Chiltern and Trans-Pennine networks, and the frequent charter trains using Class 37s, 47s and 57s.  HSTs are technically loco-hauled too.  And surely you have seen freight trains?

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

The thing that keeps niggling at me, though, is that even if it proves commercially viable, British TT:120 is going to remain a fairly small niche scale within the overall model railway market for the foreseeable future.

 

 

Surely it depends on how "niche"? If it's 5% then it's still quite large, and with the chance to grow, another of those "who knows the answer" questions!

 

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

But I'm not sure there's much you can sensibly do at home with a big Pacific in OO. People buy them - but can they use them? 

 

But if you shoot the big green Pacifics down to a scale 60% of OO, maybe you can do something sensible with them at home. 30' shrinks to 18' length . 

 

My layout will be "preservation" era and that answers the first question. My local preserved railway, the SVR, is a single track branch with Pacifics even GWR to suit Peco! Not that it'll be based on the SVR, though!!

 

14 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

I shall ask my local shop but I fear I already know the answer judging by the small amount of stock in the cabinets and on the shelves in both OO and N.  I suspect they can't support (financially) another scale, although they have the shelf space 😉

 

I was thinking the same about my local shop when I asked the question. With a completely new scale launch the expectation would be to stock the lot, something that my local shop would have to clear out everything else before being able to! I doubt he'd want to on the off chance it takes off. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Hobby

[britishcolumbian]

11 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I agree though that the difference in size between even H0 and TT is significant but, unlike N scale, models don't appear that much smaller and you seem to relate to them in much the same way.

If I had a penny for every time I heard someone ask "Is this N?" or hear someone passing by (incorrectly) tell their wife/kids that "oh that's N, that's smaller than ours" during our displays here, I'd be pretty rich.

[Hroth]

Just looking through the Hornby TT "brochure" (why can't they call it a catalogue?)  I noticed that the sets were advertised as having a 2nd radius oval.  Meanwhile the trainset descriptions on the website list them containing 3rd radius curves.

 

I wonder which is correct...

 

🙄

[spamcan61]

8 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Just looking through the Hornby TT "brochure" (why can't they call it a catalogue?)  I noticed that the sets were advertised as having a 2nd radius oval.  Meanwhile the trainset descriptions on the website list them containing 3rd radius curves.

 

I wonder which is correct...

 

🙄

Yes there are a number of inconsistencies in the info. last time I checked, the contents list for the sets didn't mention a point, but the box artwork and descriptions elsewhere show a point included.

Edited October 15, 2022 by spamcan61

[HonestTom]

A couple of photos from the King’s Cross layout. More to come.

 

OH WAIT I forgot I’m an online content creator. “OMG the locomotives caught fire while I was standing there and when I asked Simon Kohler about future releases, he leapt over the display and attempted to strangle me.”

[Hobby]

20 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

If I had a penny for every time I heard someone ask "Is this N?" or hear someone passing by (incorrectly) tell their wife/kids that "oh that's N, that's smaller than ours" during our displays here, I'd be pretty rich.

 

You should try narrow gauge, they get even more confused! "That's N" then they look at my description and frown, then the lightbulb lights up and they figure out what it is... But I have to say TTe (TT scale 1:120 using Z 6.5mm gauge track) really confuses them as there's not much Z around so it's outside their knowledge zone, especially as I've used 1:120 scale as well!! :)

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

You should try narrow gauge, they get even more confused! "That's N" then they look at my description and frown, then the lightbulb lights up and they figure out what it is... But I have to say TTe (TT scale 1:120 using Z 6.5mm gauge track) really confuses them as there's not much Z around so it's outside their knowledge zone, especially as I've used 1:120 scale as well!! :)

 

If you think that's obscure, try explaining Sn3 (American). I have a pal for whom it's his primary interest. 🙂

[andythenorth]

9 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

A couple of photos from the King’s Cross layout. More to come.

 

After 63 pages of froth and wibble, it's so nice to have some actual evidence 🙂  Thanks 👍